Jump to content


Bomber Escort - General Thoughts and Ideas for Improvement

Suggestions New Game Mode Bomber Escort Feedback

  • Please log in to reply
28 replies to this topic

SpiritFoxMY #1 Posted 08 October 2018 - 02:19 AM

    First Lieutenant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 4695 battles
  • 2,616
  • [R-A-W] R-A-W
  • Member since:
    12-31-2012

So I don't normally create a separate thread for things that are already being discussed elsewhere but I felt that, without an official thread of any sort, I wanted to put my ideas in a place where they wouldn't get buried in the mass of complaints.

 

So... anyway. Bomber Escort. Its actually a great idea conceptually and... cinematically? I think the only game where I've felt like this was the opening of Call of Duty so kudos on that. The thunder of the bomber stream and the hammering of AA all add to a pretty impressive spectacle. One issue - please tie the sound of AA fire to... you know... actual AA guns. It took me a bit to realize this but the heavy echo of gunfire is actually a location-triggered background effect not tied to the actual live AA positions. It breaks immersion to realize all the heavy AA is dead but you still hear them hammering away around you.

 

Now, on to the elephant in the room: the balance of the mode itself. I said the thing was conceptually a great idea but as usual the implementation left a lot to be desired. My summary take - this is, unfortunately, likely to end up like Invasion and for much the same reasons.

 

Now, I agree with the Bomb-hauler's point of view on this mode: this is just Invasion in reverse and what they suffered through in the initial iterations of Invasion is what us fighter-jocks are going through right now. And I also agree that the mode doesn't DRAMATICALLY need to change for it to improve - its not the huge flailing unmitigated disaster that some people claim it to be. But it is badly broken.

 

Now, what do I think needs to change to improve balance?

 

Increase the number of respawns for the Defenders, decrease it for the Attackers. Right now, loss rates are almost 2:1 in favor of the Attackers and for good reason: the Attackers don't have a huge cloud of bombers shooting back at them, nor do they have to choose between killing bombers and killing escorts - that's what their own bombers and attackers are for (I'll refer to them as SEADs from now on). In short, the Attackers have aircraft dedicated to specific roles in the battle while the Defenders don't and have to choose between the SEADs, the Bomber Stream and their fighter escort. At least two games I flew with Rei on the defender's side were lost, not to bomber breakthrough but through sheer attrition of the defensive group. And as Rei said - it makes sense. The Attackers are a long distance from their bases striking at a target deep within enemy territory - they should not have easy access to reserves. Cut the Attacker's respawn numbers in half.

 

Increase the number of HP the Strategic Target has. Right now, the Strategic Target is too easily one-passed to the point where the Attacking group can basically roll their face all over the keyboard and still win 70% of the time. The Defenders, on the other hand, must have some pretty on-spot coordination and some pretty skilled pilots to make it work. Increasing the number of HP for the Strategic Target from 10 to 15 will give a bit more margin of error for the Defending group and would mean that the target cannot be one-passed by even the largest bomber formation (14).

 

Increase the volume of AA fire and/or make it so that Ground Defenses cannot be capped out. Right now, I actually think SEAD is superfluous because, just as in Conquest mode, the value of an air kill is a lot higher compared to the value of a ground target kill so all the Escorting group has to do is kill a couple of interceptors and BAM!, all the AA fire disappears magically. On top of that, the AA fire is a lot less lethal than the briefing tries to portray. It will damage a Bomber Formation, but it will not cripple it absolutely and this is assuming best case where there aren't any escorts up high distracting them. I say at least double to number of high altitude AA per cap. An even better solution would be to add additional AA points AND make it so shooting down planes atop the cap will not affect the cap meter at all. Give SEAD a reason to exist beyond being a distraction.

 

Add an Airbase for the defenders. Again, give SEAD a reason to exist beyond being decoys. The Defenders need a faster turnaround and an Airbase will give them that as well as more flexibility to adapt to the needs of the situation. They can get repaired between waves so they don't waste time and valuable spawns after getting shot up. They can swap out to more suitable airplanes to the situation (German GAAs to counter Russian GAAs XD) and they can get back in the air faster than the current 30s respawn.

 

These are just some ideas on how to improve the mode and give the defenders a more leeway. Heavier AA makes the role of the SEAD all the more critical (especially if the caps could not be reasonably captured by air kills) and gives the Defenders something to lean on to help soften up or straight up stop a bomber wave. Reduced Attacker respawns will make good plays on the part of the Attacker way more important than it is now while incresed defender respawns means that defenders now have a fighting chance of... you know... not running flat out of reinforcements as the last wave hits. And increasing Strat Target HP means that bombers can no longer one-pass the target meaning that there's more room for mistakes on the Defending side.

 

Ultimately, though, I feel this mode's balance relies too heavily on disparities in teamwork between the teams - just like Invasion. A well coordinated defensive team can still pull out a win, especially if 90% of the attacking team are... you know... GAAs and Bombers. The only Attacking game I lost last night was the result of my cousin being the ONLY human in a vaguely air-to-air capable airplane on the Attacking team. Needless to say, his solo Starfire couldn't keep the Banshee/SpitfireXIV/XF5U/Yak-19 human swarm at bay and the IL-20/P.1099B-2/RB-17 bunch on our team couldn't do jack. I forsee this being a problem going forward.


Edited by SpiritFoxMY, 08 October 2018 - 02:20 AM.

***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


wscarter007 #2 Posted 08 October 2018 - 02:25 AM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 5801 battles
  • 224
  • [JG52] JG52
  • Member since:
    10-31-2017
All very vailid points, which I agree with.  Attacking side has has alot less work. 

Captain_Underpants53 #3 Posted 08 October 2018 - 02:39 AM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 22489 battles
  • 3,193
  • [A-S-S] A-S-S
  • Member since:
    04-17-2017

Well, they 'fixed' the unbalance all right.  Just had four battles in my bombers where I watched wave after wave of bombers getting through and doing ZERO damage.  Guess who wins that scenario?

 

I admit that the game was quite imbalanced in favor of the attackers.  But at least they had a small chance.

 

Grats WG on another brilliant 'fix'.

 

:angry:


MSgt, USAF, (ret)

ArrowZ_ #4 Posted 08 October 2018 - 02:39 AM

    Captain

  • Open Beta Tester
  • 1049 battles
  • 3,274
  • Member since:
    08-04-2013
Yep. Right on the money. The most obvious improvement that needs to be done first is implementing an airbase for defenders. It's basic common sense. How they managed let this slip past their development of this mode is strange to say the least. 

That Ozi Client Side Lagger


trikke #5 Posted 08 October 2018 - 02:52 AM

    Captain

  • Member
  • 3463 battles
  • 3,347
  • [R-A-W] R-A-W
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

amazing insight, brother      i'll print this too, but too late and too large to memorize it

 

after reading everything, i'm afraid i may not be at the skill level that is needed to play defense

 

and that was the attraction... to become competitive in a mode where my team is doomed to fail from the start

 

Rei is a much better pilot than i'll ever be, but if you're prepared to take some blows to your WR...  let's do this thing!

 

off-topic...  WG patches brand new modes, even after just a few days      didn't they fiddle with Invasion pretty quickly?   or did i dream that?


Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore

TaliBandaid #6 Posted 08 October 2018 - 02:53 AM

    Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 7365 battles
  • 48
  • Member since:
    01-24-2014

Spawn points for defenders are too far away. Point of the whole mode is battle of Britain... During the blitz, defenders could scramble faster, RTB and do it again. 

 

Also, if their going to stick to this mode without some fundamental changes... then decrease the number of fighter escorts or increase the number of bombers that have to get through. 

 

FYI.. 2:1?? Seriously, you spent too much time running with the easy button today. I dropped from an above 65% WR to 64.7%.  96% percent of my matches were defense of those less than a dozen wins.  That's a far cry from 2:1 odds...lmbo.


Edited by TaliBandaid, 08 October 2018 - 02:54 AM.


LMG #7 Posted 08 October 2018 - 03:00 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2436 battles
  • 1,954
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

I personally like the Strongholds being cappable. Gives the Ground Pounders something to do, with a time crunch in the form of the bombers slowly flying over it. I'd suggest making aircraft kills not contribute to its capture, but then the Defenders can't push back the cap. Overall I'd leave them as is and focus on other things, like giving the enemy Base more HP.

 

I'd also add just remove respawn limits in general. With how the game mode goes I don't think they're necessary, especially for the Defenders that have to basically run suicide missions :kamikaze:


This is my IL-2 (t). There are many like it, but this one is mine. :child:

Paladin_77 #8 Posted 08 October 2018 - 03:11 AM

    Airman Basic

  • Member
  • 853 battles
  • 4
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

All great ideas Spirit. I absolutely love the idea of escort mode and the gameplay that it brings but is is hot garbage in its current iteration. I would suggest that Wargaming choose any two of the following and implement them immediately to fix the mode:

 

1. Reduce the number of bombers in each flight OR reduce the HP of each bomber

2. Double the number of bombers required for victory. That may be too harsh but without a test server, how else would we know?

3. Increase the hitpoints of armored flak cannons. In my IL-2t, I can destroy 3-4 flak cannons in a single pass, and each base has 8. Now put 5 GAAs on a team, and the bases may as well not even be there.

4. Give the defenders an airbase with a repair station.

 

I'd say choosing any combination of the two of these would bring the mode into some semblance of balance.



SpiritFoxMY #9 Posted 08 October 2018 - 03:16 AM

    First Lieutenant

  • Closed Beta Tester
  • 4695 battles
  • 2,616
  • [R-A-W] R-A-W
  • Member since:
    12-31-2012

View PostTaliBandaid, on 08 October 2018 - 10:53 AM 

FYI.. 2:1?? Seriously, you spent too much time running with the easy button today. I dropped from an above 65% WR to 64.7%.  96% percent of my matches were defense of those less than a dozen wins.  That's a far cry from 2:1 odds...lmbo.

 

2:1 in spawns. Meaning the Defensive force is losing up to twice the number of planes in a battle vs. The Attacking force.

 

Edit: I'll play nice. This isn't an e-peen contest


Edited by SpiritFoxMY, 08 October 2018 - 03:18 AM.

***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


StoptheViolins #10 Posted 08 October 2018 - 03:19 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2179 battles
  • 1,234
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012

Well random bases each match would be nice - it gets boring playing the same map over and over and over.  

 

Add defender spawn points closer to bomber paths.  Right now attackers spawn on top of the bombers most of the time while defenders are a ways away from the flights.

 

Add 5-10 AI air defense planes over each base.

 

Add more posts around the base for GA to slam into...


Edited by StoptheViolins, 08 October 2018 - 03:34 AM.


vcharng #11 Posted 08 October 2018 - 03:50 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3563 battles
  • 797
  • Member since:
    10-25-2017

View PostTaliBandaid, on 08 October 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

 I dropped from an above 65% WR to 64.7%. 

Uhhhh wait what?

I checked in the first day of the event that this event doesn't affect your WR, was that changed?



vcharng #12 Posted 08 October 2018 - 03:56 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3563 battles
  • 797
  • Member since:
    10-25-2017

View PostPaladin_77, on 08 October 2018 - 03:11 AM, said:

 

3. Increase the hitpoints of armored flak cannons. In my IL-2t, I can destroy 3-4 flak cannons in a single pass, and each base has 8. Now put 5 GAAs on a team, and the bases may as well not even be there.

That's b/c you're flying Soviet and calculating the run with ordnance. Try that in a German GAA or in a Soviet one with ordnance reloading.

AA gun HP is already like 5 times more than in Contest, adding more and you'll be like removing German GAAs.



TaliBandaid #13 Posted 08 October 2018 - 04:10 AM

    Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 7365 battles
  • 48
  • Member since:
    01-24-2014

View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 08 October 2018 - 03:16 AM, said:

 

2:1 in spawns. Meaning the Defensive force is losing up to twice the number of planes in a battle vs. The Attacking force.

 

Edit: I'll play nice. This isn't an e-peen contest

and when have we ever played nice?? <I

defense is just painful and disheartening. I have tried all day... talking nice, saying please.. to downright let the Army come through and using expletives to expound my point... It just doesn't work, and when the team actually handles one round of bombers and escorts well... too little too late. Offense has been having a great day. That's why it was disappointing to see so many veteran pilots exploiting that advantage... just bugs my sense of fairplay. 



vcharng #14 Posted 08 October 2018 - 04:13 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3563 battles
  • 797
  • Member since:
    10-25-2017

View PostStoptheViolins, on 08 October 2018 - 03:19 AM, said:

Add 5-10 AI air defense planes over each base.

I'm not so very sure about this, adding more ADF could also mean more targets for the attacking side.



comtedumas #15 Posted 08 October 2018 - 05:47 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 6887 battles
  • 1,244
  • [FK] FK
  • Member since:
    04-11-2016
Increase the number of bombers who have to get away from 10 to 25 or 30.  That should lengthen the battles, ending rolfstomps and make it possible to earn those chevrons we need for part three of the missions.  

Dell Inspiron 5675 Ryzen 1700X

32 GB Ram

500Gb Samsung Evo 960 game drive

Crucial MX500 250GB 3D NAND SATA M.2 Type 2280SS Internal SSD - CT250MX500SSD4

AMD RX 580 8GB video card.  


StoptheViolins #16 Posted 08 October 2018 - 05:49 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 2179 battles
  • 1,234
  • Member since:
    01-26-2012
F-94D is good for cutting through 1-3 bombers in a run - assuming you use the Vulcan and rockets.  Also doing a half corkscrew gets you back on the tail of the bombers if you over shoot.

Also the stack formation of bombers should be replaced by period specific formations just to add to the effect and not insta end a match when they hit the border - this will create a wave effect and give the defenders a few more moments to shoot down the bombers.

comtedumas #17 Posted 08 October 2018 - 05:56 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 6887 battles
  • 1,244
  • [FK] FK
  • Member since:
    04-11-2016
Oh, and one more thing, put the bombers in boxes, not a big assed gaggle like in game.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_box

Dell Inspiron 5675 Ryzen 1700X

32 GB Ram

500Gb Samsung Evo 960 game drive

Crucial MX500 250GB 3D NAND SATA M.2 Type 2280SS Internal SSD - CT250MX500SSD4

AMD RX 580 8GB video card.  


vcharng #18 Posted 08 October 2018 - 06:03 AM

    Command Chief Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 3563 battles
  • 797
  • Member since:
    10-25-2017

View Postcomtedumas, on 08 October 2018 - 05:47 AM, said:

Increase the number of bombers who have to get away from 10 to 25 or 30.  That should lengthen the battles, ending rolfstomps and make it possible to earn those chevrons we need for part three of the missions.  

 

Without increasing waves? too much, way too much.

When playing as defenders I find myself usually just a few bombers away from winning, so I sincerely think 15-20 would be more than enough.



Wombatmetal #19 Posted 08 October 2018 - 07:17 AM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Member
  • 1141 battles
  • 1,045
  • [A-S-S] A-S-S
  • Member since:
    06-02-2013

View Postvcharng, on 07 October 2018 - 10:03 PM, said:

 

Without increasing waves? too much, way too much.

When playing as defenders I find myself usually just a few bombers away from winning, so I sincerely think 15-20 would be more than enough.

 

Agree. I have seen two types of games for the most part. One where the defenders didn't really attack the bombers at all, and the game was over on the first of second flight. Nothing can help that.

 

The other are close games, and a few bombers would swing it. The difference between victory and defeat isn't much. 



cobra_marksman #20 Posted 08 October 2018 - 11:19 AM

    Senior Master Sergeant

  • Member
  • 7071 battles
  • 442
  • [R-A-W] R-A-W
  • Member since:
    01-28-2014
This is the Best ever :facepalm:..…. I flew my Bomber, with my left hand & bombed with my eyes Bombed with my eyes closed. ( I used my Star Wars Force ), and still WON.:great:   30 battles...... 30 Wins. You just might want to open up your wallet :ohmy: .....and buy a few bombers to keep your win / loss ratio at a respectable number.:coin:




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users