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This game is brutal for newbies

Too Stronk AA Low tiers ADA aircraft low tiers

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Bobby_Tables #1 Posted 02 October 2018 - 06:49 AM

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I am not complaining for myself.  I just completed a 10 token mission where I was limited to USSR or UK aircraft.  To finish it, I had to do T4 or below, which I completed today.  In order to do this, some of my USSR planes were low tier like the I-5 ShKAS and the I-16(e).  I had played these a lot in earlier versions of the game with pretty good success.  Overall, I did pretty well, but I noticed some things that to me, would strongly discourage newer players:

 

1) The AA even over Garrisons is brutal.  And I mean like T5+ freakin' brutal.  There were times when my team had a swarm of blue planes over the garrison and the next thing you know they were gone, and I mean just gone.  All destroyed.  

 

2) The Ao-192's used to be just fodder to be destroyed.  Now they basically mow down attacking planes like nothing.  I admit, I was playing low-flying TnB planes, but really that's what I was limited to given the missions.  Man, they were never this aggressive nor this accurate in previous iterations.  

 

2a) Same with the He-51s or other bot ADA planes.  At lower tiers they seem much more fierce than they are at higher tiers.  I have no trouble outthinking a bot ADA at, say T8, but at T3, those little whippersnappers are on you like flies on dog poop in July. 

 

3) Caps flip with almost no logic.  I never complained about this because I rarely played the lower tiers.  There was one battle with just one red plane over a Garrison.  The Garrison was about 30% blue and in like 10 seconds flipped to red.  No idea how this happened.  I shot down the enemy plane (T2, JPN fighter) and there were zero bombers or GA or any other red plane around.  How that one JPN fighter flipped a cap in no time is completely outside the norm.  

 

4) Games seem soooo lopsided.  I just finished the mission where my team just steamrolled the red team with almost no logic.  We capped stuff without any effort.  I could have played blindfolded and still won.  And, of course, the flip side occurs where no matter what you do, the red team just prevails even though your team executes very well.    

 

There is a post about how the Steam population is dropping.  I can see why.  Now, I don't expect lower tiers to be a cake-walk, but to bring more humans into the game, it should be easier than it is.  I was shot down by brutal AA so many times in my little I-16(e) it was amazing.  Never before have I seen it have such a big impact at such a low tier.  

 

Again, I am not complaining about my results.  I chose to play these tiers because it's what I had available that is competitive (yes, I have plenty of T4 [premium] USSR aircraft that are useless hangar-queens) and I was curious about play at these tiers.  

 

Overall, for a newbie getting into this game from Steam, what a cluster-flub.  WG:  You need to create a kiddie pool and do so fast if you want to retain any players.  Yes, I got my butt kicked when I first started playing but that was against humans and I realized that I could learn from them.  With the bot-fest you have today, your game is totally broke at lower tiers.  


Edited by Bobby_Tables, 02 October 2018 - 07:00 AM.


GonerNL #2 Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:48 AM

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View PostBobby_Tables, on 02 October 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

4) Games seem soooo lopsided.  I just finished the mission where my team just steamrolled the red team with almost no logic.  We capped stuff without any effort.  I could have played blindfolded and still won.  And, of course, the flip side occurs where no matter what you do, the red team just prevails even though your team executes very well.    

 

That is my biggest gripe with the game ... the matchmaking is just horrible. 

Teams are often completely unbalanced ; one team has experienced humans in RB-17, other team gets a stupid bot. Or solo against uptiered flights !! One team gets bot aces in GA, other team gets bots who go dogfighting in their GA !!

So many roflstomps and they are just no fun, winning or losing.

 


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blindfoId #3 Posted 02 October 2018 - 10:38 AM

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ADA mechanics have been reconsidered recently, the next update will introduce some ADA rebalance. AA mechanics are to be changed as well — it should be easier now to evade AA gun fire. 

trikke #4 Posted 02 October 2018 - 01:03 PM

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BF, would you consider recommending a three tier expertise level for AA guns, like you do now with the flying bots?   

 

you know... the three 'aggressiveness' levels that we can choose from, in the training rooms?

 

it would probably be easy to code...  you would only have to increase/decrease the accuracy RNG for the different levels?


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Captain_Underpants53 #5 Posted 02 October 2018 - 01:45 PM

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View PostBobby_Tables, on 02 October 2018 - 01:49 AM, said:

I am not complaining for myself.  I just completed a 10 token mission where I was limited to USSR or UK aircraft.  To finish it, I had to do T4 or below, which I completed today.  In order to do this, some of my USSR planes were low tier like the I-5 ShKAS and the I-16(e).  I had played these a lot in earlier versions of the game with pretty good success.  Overall, I did pretty well, but I noticed some things that to me, would strongly discourage newer players:

 

1) The AA even over Garrisons is brutal.  And I mean like T5+ freakin' brutal.  There were times when my team had a swarm of blue planes over the garrison and the next thing you know they were gone, and I mean just gone.  All destroyed.  

 

2) The Ao-192's used to be just fodder to be destroyed.  Now they basically mow down attacking planes like nothing.  I admit, I was playing low-flying TnB planes, but really that's what I was limited to given the missions.  Man, they were never this aggressive nor this accurate in previous iterations.  

 

2a) Same with the He-51s or other bot ADA planes.  At lower tiers they seem much more fierce than they are at higher tiers.  I have no trouble outthinking a bot ADA at, say T8, but at T3, those little whippersnappers are on you like flies on dog poop in July. 

 

3) Caps flip with almost no logic.  I never complained about this because I rarely played the lower tiers.  There was one battle with just one red plane over a Garrison.  The Garrison was about 30% blue and in like 10 seconds flipped to red.  No idea how this happened.  I shot down the enemy plane (T2, JPN fighter) and there were zero bombers or GA or any other red plane around.  How that one JPN fighter flipped a cap in no time is completely outside the norm.  

 

4) Games seem soooo lopsided.  I just finished the mission where my team just steamrolled the red team with almost no logic.  We capped stuff without any effort.  I could have played blindfolded and still won.  And, of course, the flip side occurs where no matter what you do, the red team just prevails even though your team executes very well.    

 

There is a post about how the Steam population is dropping.  I can see why.  Now, I don't expect lower tiers to be a cake-walk, but to bring more humans into the game, it should be easier than it is.  I was shot down by brutal AA so many times in my little I-16(e) it was amazing.  Never before have I seen it have such a big impact at such a low tier.  

 

Again, I am not complaining about my results.  I chose to play these tiers because it's what I had available that is competitive (yes, I have plenty of T4 [premium] USSR aircraft that are useless hangar-queens) and I was curious about play at these tiers.  

 

Overall, for a newbie getting into this game from Steam, what a cluster-flub.  WG:  You need to create a kiddie pool and do so fast if you want to retain any players.  Yes, I got my butt kicked when I first started playing but that was against humans and I realized that I could learn from them.  With the bot-fest you have today, your game is totally broke at lower tiers.  

 

Good  +1
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SlappedbyRommel #6 Posted 02 October 2018 - 02:37 PM

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Well said and I I have also seen this occur even when in a flight AA is like flying through 1000 Canadian geese getting nailed very quickly.

poppavein #7 Posted 02 October 2018 - 10:15 PM

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View PostBobby_Tables, on 01 October 2018 - 10:49 PM, said:

Overall, for a newbie getting into this game from Steam, what a cluster-flub.  WG:  You need to create a kiddie pool and do so fast if you want to retain any players.  Yes, I got my butt kicked when I first started playing but that was against humans and I realized that I could learn from them.  With the bot-fest you have today, your game is totally broke at lower tiers.  

 

I like the solution they use for Total War Arena.  Tier 1 and 2 battles are only against the AI bots.  Tier 3 you can choose to go against AI bots or real players.

 

This stops the seal clubbing of low level noobs.  It would be easy to implement in WoWP.  And doesn't dilute the small pool of available players by attempting to have a separate sandbox for noobs.

 



ComradeZ #8 Posted 03 October 2018 - 12:35 AM

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When I'm forced to seal club I just generally ignore them. The AI gets no mercy. If a seal does come at me, I usually just set em on fire/cripple then leave em for ADA or AI to clean up.  I got other things to do (like obnoxious daily missions) than seal club exclusively. 

El_Mulo #9 Posted 03 October 2018 - 03:19 AM

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I m not sure that newbies and experienced pilots are equally treated by ADA and AA in low tiers.

BTW sometimes ago in an "antisealclubbing" post I wrote that winning in low tiers was much more difficult by far.  Also that you can easily find newbies in T7-8-9 in premium planes (IMO they shouldn 't sell premium planes more than one tier plus your higher tier).

Is a matter of long term bussines, you could sell one plane now, but the newbie that doesn't get HOW TO play will quickly frustate and leave, preventing WG of future sells.


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Zaikadi #10 Posted 03 October 2018 - 06:49 AM

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Well, I am a newbie (Aug 18), and while I agree with most of OP's points, I didn't think the game has been brutal at all.

 

I went up a couple of lines, mostly flying T&B, and found the game to be fun. I was shooting down planes left and right. In a couple of weeks, I had had some 15-kill, a 17-kill, a 19-kill, and 22-kill battles. After playing WoT, where 6 kills is quite good and 8 kills rare, it was quite exhilarating. Things got a little more challenging with B&Zs, heavy fighters, and GAs, but I'm having fun with all of them. Bombers are pretty easy.

 

Only occasionally do I get seal-clubbed. It's usually someone with either a Spitfire or 109 with Specialist, or someone that has a special gift or premium aircraft. I shot down a confident seal-clubber in my last battle tonight, and it felt good.
 

I have to admit, there are a lot of things I don't know (such as much of what OP listed), and I would have a hard time learning these things without the helpful people on these forums. The battles are, indeed, lopsided (I have my own complaint thread about this). But the basic gameplay is enjoyable and easier to survive than WoT, in my opinion.


Edited by Zaikadi, 03 October 2018 - 06:50 AM.

Favorite planes:

Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate  |  Kawasaki Ki-102   |  Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien  |  Bell P-39N1 Airacobra  |  Heinkel He 111 H2  |  Polikarpov I-17  |  Curtiss P-40  |   Mitsubishi A6M5  |  Nakajima A4N  |  Messerschmidt Bf 109 B  |  Messerschmidt Bf 109 E  |  Polikarpov I-16 (e.)  |  Fairey Fantome  |  Me 410 Hornisse


jack_wdw #11 Posted 03 October 2018 - 08:22 AM

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Went in yesterday for a couple of games and i agree to OP's statement.
Tier III was the lowest i went (F2A), but it was brutal.
AA will shred your plane in two or three passes, ADA are very aggressive and if AA didn't knock you down, they will finish you off.
It used to be quite easy to solo cap in Tier III, but now it seemed more difficult than in tier V for instance.

hoom #12 Posted 03 October 2018 - 10:30 AM

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I'll also add the prevalence of Night Battles in lower tiers.

Night is kinda fun but shooting up it can be super hard to make out planes against the dark background, hard enough for me with experience, must be near impossible for newbies.

 

And worst of all for some reason my Skua seems perpetually stuck on Night battles, I dunno when I last had a battle with it that wasn't a Night battle.

 

Side point: when will Night battles be enabled for higher tiers?

 

The map layouts with 3 points in a triangle almost always result in an early Superiority for one side or the other, not sure why when its a lot more rare in the 3 in a line layouts.


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trikke #13 Posted 03 October 2018 - 11:39 AM

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night battles reduced for new folks and added to higher tiers, please

 

i want to have to dodge pyramids in the dark


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CorvusCorvax #14 Posted 03 October 2018 - 01:15 PM

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I love the night maps.  One of my favorite things about playing T1-3.

Captain_Underpants53 #15 Posted 03 October 2018 - 01:31 PM

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View Posttrikke, on 03 October 2018 - 06:39 AM, said:

night battles reduced for new folks and added to higher tiers, please

 

i want to have to dodge pyramids in the dark

 

LOL
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hoom #16 Posted 03 October 2018 - 01:39 PM

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Block Quote

 AA mechanics are to be changed as well — it should be easier now to evade AA gun fire. 

 

Well I played battles in SB, Bf110-C6 & Pe2-M82.

New High Altitude AA is vastly more dangerous than before IMO.

Fly straight for a few seconds in a Heavy/Bomber and you'll be trashed even by just 1 AA mount.

 

Its certainly not more newbie friendly nope :facepalm:


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Prenzlau #17 Posted 03 October 2018 - 02:35 PM

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    I agree with the vast majority of points and opinions that have been made in this topic. I agree with Mulo's observation that "noobs" can be found at any tier, and to be honest in any plane, not just premiums. That may sound a little counter intuitive, because at tier 8 you would think anyone rising through to that level through hundreds of battles would be experienced, savvy and competitive, yet time after time I see players in non premium planes with below average stats and below average (sometimes awful) performances. Now to be fair, everyone has a bad battle (except me of course) from time to time and some people might have internet issues or in game technical problems. Still I am perplexed at times as to what I witness.

 

    That said, beyond all the realities of terrible AA, killer air defense planes, horrendous match making, and players with sub-par aptitudes, what I see time and time again is players with no tactical sense or goals flying around seemingly lost or oblivious to the overall battle. There are competent and above average players who still just engage anything and everything in sight and don't tactically play to win the battle. Sometimes to win you have to make sacrifices for the team, like guarding a cap or attacking ground attack planes or bombers. When I have to defend caps with my bomber because I know the strategic value of losing a particular cap, well that speaks for itself. So even though conquest has been around for a long time, every time I play I run into the same situations, players not playing to win. On the flip side, when the other team uses good tactics it is always easy to see and those battles are always more memorable. 

 

    So things like the MM, AA and the like can be fixed and tweaked. What is going to fix the mentality of the human player? Winners in this game, despite all the issues and obstacles, are the ones who are not only competent to excellent pilots, but also they have a superior tactical mind and simply know how to win more times than not. Get two or three (or more) of these quality players on one team and it is usually a lop sided battle. 

 

    One final observation I want to talk about. I fly bombers a lot, as many of you already know. My techniques and tactics are very consistent, and I know the maps, how to attack them. So unlike a lot of different planes where chaos and random situations might be much more of a factor, my level of quality is very consistent. I'm not saying this to ingratiate myself, because if I were to do that, I would dedicate an entire topic, and maybe rightfully so. What I am saying is that everything being equal, I notice the differences per battle, and the little changes the game brings, sometimes during the battle itself. I believe 100% that all players do not have the same opportunity each and every battle. I believe 100% that there is some algorithm that dictates winning and losing, and that at times only superior efforts by some players can rise above, but at other times, it is just pointless, one side is going to win no matter what heroics take place. When I am in a bomber and it is a 2 v 2 battle and the rest bots and the caps flip before I even get there to bomb them, and I think to myself, I did not do sh*t this battle and we rolled them, it seems like it was predetermined. On the other hand, when all the caps get flipped for the other team as fast as I can take them, I say to my team, "I'm sorry, there is nothing I can do". 

 

    We remember the battles that were competitive and that could have gone either way. Those battles are how this game is supposed to play. You might get a handful of them each night, but most of the rest, not very memorable and at times tedious. Also we should think a bit deeper into the cultivating of new players. If new players are coddled and get to swim in kiddie pools, then they won't be worth a damn when they get thrown in with the big fish. You have to get knocked down to pick yourself up, not only in real life but in all things. Overcoming adversity creates grit and toughness. The question is what kind of new players do you want in this game? 

 

Prenzlau


Edited by Prenzlau, 03 October 2018 - 02:43 PM.

 

 

 

 


Captain_Underpants53 #18 Posted 03 October 2018 - 03:30 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 03 October 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

    I agree with the vast majority of points and opinions that have been made in this topic. I agree with Mulo's observation that "noobs" can be found at any tier, and to be honest in any plane, not just premiums. That may sound a little counter intuitive, because at tier 8 you would think anyone rising through to that level through hundreds of battles would be experienced, savvy and competitive, yet time after time I see players in non premium planes with below average stats and below average (sometimes awful) performances. Now to be fair, everyone has a bad battle (except me of course) from time to time and some people might have internet issues or in game technical problems. Still I am perplexed at times as to what I witness.

 

    That said, beyond all the realities of terrible AA, killer air defense planes, horrendous match making, and players with sub-par aptitudes, what I see time and time again is players with no tactical sense or goals flying around seemingly lost or oblivious to the overall battle. There are competent and above average players who still just engage anything and everything in sight and don't tactically play to win the battle. Sometimes to win you have to make sacrifices for the team, like guarding a cap or attacking ground attack planes or bombers. When I have to defend caps with my bomber because I know the strategic value of losing a particular cap, well that speaks for itself. So even though conquest has been around for a long time, every time I play I run into the same situations, players not playing to win. On the flip side, when the other team uses good tactics it is always easy to see and those battles are always more memorable. 

 

    So things like the MM, AA and the like can be fixed and tweaked. What is going to fix the mentality of the human player? Winners in this game, despite all the issues and obstacles, are the ones who are not only competent to excellent pilots, but also they have a superior tactical mind and simply know how to win more times than not. Get two or three (or more) of these quality players on one team and it is usually a lop sided battle. 

 

    One final observation I want to talk about. I fly bombers a lot, as many of you already know. My techniques and tactics are very consistent, and I know the maps, how to attack them. So unlike a lot of different planes where chaos and random situations might be much more of a factor, my level of quality is very consistent. I'm not saying this to ingratiate myself, because if I were to do that, I would dedicate an entire topic, and maybe rightfully so. What I am saying is that everything being equal, I notice the differences per battle, and the little changes the game brings, sometimes during the battle itself. I believe 100% that all players do not have the same opportunity each and every battle. I believe 100% that there is some algorithm that dictates winning and losing, and that at times only superior efforts by some players can rise above, but at other times, it is just pointless, one side is going to win no matter what heroics take place. When I am in a bomber and it is a 2 v 2 battle and the rest bots and the caps flip before I even get there to bomb them, and I think to myself, I did not do sh*t this battle and we rolled them, it seems like it was predetermined. On the other hand, when all the caps get flipped for the other team as fast as I can take them, I say to my team, "I'm sorry, there is nothing I can do". 

 

    We remember the battles that were competitive and that could have gone either way. Those battles are how this game is supposed to play. You might get a handful of them each night, but most of the rest, not very memorable and at times tedious. Also we should think a bit deeper into the cultivating of new players. If new players are coddled and get to swim in kiddie pools, then they won't be worth a damn when they get thrown in with the big fish. You have to get knocked down to pick yourself up, not only in real life but in all things. Overcoming adversity creates grit and toughness. The question is what kind of new players do you want in this game? 

 

Prenzlau

 

Dadburn it!  There you go, making sense for a change!  +1
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Prenzlau #19 Posted 03 October 2018 - 03:59 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 03 October 2018 - 09:30 AM, said:

 

Dadburn it!  There you go, making sense for a change!  +1

 

    Some things Captain go beyond personality and personal preferences. I am a bomber pilot. I can respect others for being bomber pilots. In the greater picture I can respect others for being pilots and players. We all compete, but we also at any given time could be team mates. I see the same things everybody else does. The frolicking and game playing in the forums usually does not represent the attitudes and dispositions I see in game. There are some exceptions, of course. 

 

    If someone doesn't have some swagger and moxie to them, then you will always be brutalized by this game and other players. It is sort of the law of the jungle. The intangibles matter. It is amusing how people view me as a contrarian or the opposition, when my support and assistance just comes in a different type of package. I appreciate your +1, and shall treasure it always.

 

Prenzlau


 

 

 

 


Captain_Underpants53 #20 Posted 03 October 2018 - 04:31 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 03 October 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

 

    Some things Captain go beyond personality and personal preferences. I am a bomber pilot. I can respect others for being bomber pilots. In the greater picture I can respect others for being pilots and players. We all compete, but we also at any given time could be team mates. I see the same things everybody else does. The frolicking and game playing in the forums usually does not represent the attitudes and dispositions I see in game. There are some exceptions, of course. 

 

    If someone doesn't have some swagger and moxie to them, then you will always be brutalized by this game and other players. It is sort of the law of the jungle. The intangibles matter. It is amusing how people view me as a contrarian or the opposition, when my support and assistance just comes in a different type of package. I appreciate your +1, and shall treasure it always.

 

Prenzlau

 

It still don't mean we are going to be taking long, hot showers together.

 

:hiding:


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