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Beefing Up Maneuverability in B&Z Fighters


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Zaikadi #1 Posted 23 September 2018 - 06:47 PM

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Hey, I know this has probably been the topic of a thread before (I didn't know what key words to search with), but I wanted to expand on something that was mentioned in my P-40 thread and in some YouTube videos.

 

I bought equipment to improve the already potent speed of my P-40, and I'm happy with that decision; however, now that I have purchased the Bf 109 E, I feel that the speed is not in any way lacking for fighting with that plane. The only time I feel I want more is to get to other parts of the map. So I was considering focusing on improving the maneuverability of the 109--improving its weaknesses rather than its strengths. I have read in threads and heard in videos that the usual wisdom is to improve on a plane's strengths, that the boost to weaknesses is not very effective. On the other hand, a couple of you improved the maneuverability of your P-40s and supported that choice with good reasons.


So, I open the question to you folks (again?--sorry). Have you found that improving a B&Z plane's maneuverability (before improving speed) can make a significant difference? I have +3 crew skill points waiting for your input.


 

And thanks once again.


Edited by Zaikadi, 23 September 2018 - 07:11 PM.

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ArrowZ_ #2 Posted 23 September 2018 - 08:05 PM

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It's all relative to the gain from the percentages with these equips. So In theory the higher the stat number, the greater the benefit in performance. While might give you an edge on some aircrafts you still won't be able to out turn a spitfire or a zero especially if they spec a full TnB equipment load. You have to know what aircrafts in this game are inherent BnZ, TnB and hybrids  Once you figure that out you can choose better equips to suit the style of the plane. 

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jack_wdw #3 Posted 23 September 2018 - 08:09 PM

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I don't know if this is still going on since 2.0.
but back in the days when i was grinding the 109E, finally i liked it better without the wing root cannons.
Dismounting those cannons gave a good boost in speed and maneuverability.

wylleEcoyote #4 Posted 23 September 2018 - 10:27 PM

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View Postjack_wdw, on 23 September 2018 - 08:09 PM, said:

I don't know if this is still going on since 2.0.
but back in the days when i was grinding the 109E, finally i liked it better without the wing root cannons.
Dismounting those cannons gave a good boost in speed and maneuverability.

 

swapping out weapons does have an effect. Though in this case i am not sure how much of a difference it makes.
 

View PostZaikadi, on 23 September 2018 - 06:47 PM, said:

Hey, I know this has probably been the topic of a thread before (I didn't know what key words to search with), but I wanted to expand on something that was mentioned in my P-40 thread and in some YouTube videos.

 

So, I open the question to you folks (again?--sorry). Have you found that improving a B&Z plane's maneuverability (before improving speed) can make a significant difference? I have +3 crew skill points waiting for your input.


 

And thanks once again.

 


Yes. 
Build out for manuverability and stay relatively high.
You wont become a turn fighter. Going Low and getting into horizontal turn fights will still get you killed.
But you can surprise people. Sometimes that is enough.
Should you go low you may find that even when you arent strictly set up for it you still have the engine to do Vertical turns as long as your boost holds up.

Most of the things that out turn " 'Muricanz und Zee Looftwaffles" either cant follow them up high or if they get tricked into doing so they loose a lot of their advantage.

Also getting in the habit of staying high means you are in a position to fall back onto your BoomyZoomy tactics (especially if you have some cannons)


Be careful with Spits that have cannons.
If you dont cripple them on your first pass; they usually have juuuust enough boost to catch you as you zoom away.
Especially if you are not running a cruise/boost build.


Fair warning. My success rate at speculative guesswork is on par with my WinRate. Hit or Miss.
 I start on the right track and then sometimes make a weird left turn and get lost in the weeds ... 

Specialist Planes earned: Japan, USA, UK, Germany, USSR, Europe
Light Fighters:  Ar 68/80, Bf 109 B/E/E-3/F/G, Fw 159, He 51/100 D-1/112, Ho 229, Me 209 A/ v4/ P.1092, Spit.V DB605​, Ta 152 
Ki-5/8/10/27/43-I/43-II, A4N, A5M, A6M1, Hurricane Ia, Bristol 146, Spitfire Vb IM, DH.100 F1, I-17Yak-1MiG-3
P-23/36/36C/39N-1/40, XP-31/36F/55, Hawk 75M, Model 81A-1, , P-51A, XF15C

MultiRole Fighters: Type 91, P-12/26/35/43, XP-44, P-47B, F11C-2, F4F/U-1, 
TyphoonAr 65, Fw 190 A-1/5/D, BV P.210/212.03, I-5/15/16(e)(l)

Heavy Fighters: P-38 F/J, XP-58P-82 B, Beaufighter/ VAo 192, Fw 57, Bf 110 B/C-6/E, Me 410, Bf 109 Z, Do 335 A-1, Me 262, Tu-1, SE 100,

Attack Aircraft: BSh-2, Hs 123/129 A, Ha 137, Fw 189 C, Ju 87 G, Me 265, Me 1099 B-2
Bombers: B-17 G, Do 17 Z / 217 M, He 111 H2, Ju 288 C, Pe-2 

 


mnbv_fockewulfe #5 Posted 23 September 2018 - 10:56 PM

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I could be mistaken, but I thought for sure that on most planes, upgrading and adding guns to planes did not impact performance.

Be sure to check your logic privileges before posting on the forum.

 


 


wylleEcoyote #6 Posted 23 September 2018 - 11:06 PM

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With all this said you can still split the difference in a Bf Emil @ Tier 5
From Stock through Elite you get the space for a gun site and 1 engine upgrade.
You should absolutely buy one of each engine upgrade and calibrate them to their maximum value (148 rating).
It is not a waste of parts as most would tell you. Maxing out the calibration on Stock equipment allows for the differences in each equipment to be really noticeable without getting letting that nifty cool random bonus ability skew the results.

As long as you do not upgrade them you can switch them out as often as you want for no cost.
Try out each one for a bit of time until you get a feel for what you like and what you dont.

**If you have lots of tokens laying about you can take this a step further and upgrade the Stock equipment to Improved before you Calibrate to max (248 value) Enhancing or Calibrating any further without a plane that is Specialized is useless. As you dont get the benefits for the gear if it is Advanced or Ultimate.
You can still switch out stuff at will; only now it costs you a token per upgrade to do so.**

Once you do specialize, you can select TWO of the four upgrades to keep. so Ho-ray!
And you will also open up an air frame slot.
Where you can do everything from earlier all over again.

Added bonus even if the gear is crapfor what you want to do that doesnt mean it wont be a great fit on another plane ...

Fair warning. My success rate at speculative guesswork is on par with my WinRate. Hit or Miss.
 I start on the right track and then sometimes make a weird left turn and get lost in the weeds ... 

Specialist Planes earned: Japan, USA, UK, Germany, USSR, Europe
Light Fighters:  Ar 68/80, Bf 109 B/E/E-3/F/G, Fw 159, He 51/100 D-1/112, Ho 229, Me 209 A/ v4/ P.1092, Spit.V DB605​, Ta 152 
Ki-5/8/10/27/43-I/43-II, A4N, A5M, A6M1, Hurricane Ia, Bristol 146, Spitfire Vb IM, DH.100 F1, I-17Yak-1MiG-3
P-23/36/36C/39N-1/40, XP-31/36F/55, Hawk 75M, Model 81A-1, , P-51A, XF15C

MultiRole Fighters: Type 91, P-12/26/35/43, XP-44, P-47B, F11C-2, F4F/U-1, 
TyphoonAr 65, Fw 190 A-1/5/D, BV P.210/212.03, I-5/15/16(e)(l)

Heavy Fighters: P-38 F/J, XP-58P-82 B, Beaufighter/ VAo 192, Fw 57, Bf 110 B/C-6/E, Me 410, Bf 109 Z, Do 335 A-1, Me 262, Tu-1, SE 100,

Attack Aircraft: BSh-2, Hs 123/129 A, Ha 137, Fw 189 C, Ju 87 G, Me 265, Me 1099 B-2
Bombers: B-17 G, Do 17 Z / 217 M, He 111 H2, Ju 288 C, Pe-2 

 


wylleEcoyote #7 Posted 24 September 2018 - 12:32 AM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 23 September 2018 - 10:56 PM, said:

I could be mistaken, but I thought for sure that on most planes, upgrading and adding guns to planes did not impact performance.

 

It does actually. though the difference is sometimes only 1-3 points on the rating.

Bigger guns weigh more. and effect maneuverability. even on Light fighters as they are especially sensitive to it.
Outboard weapons also weigh more and cause drag. Effecting speed.
It is prevalent on heavies and multi-role planes as well.

Here is 3 examples.


A Bf 109 B gains a point of engine speed in you dont use the wing mounted LMGs.

A Bf109 E gains a point of maneuverability if you dont use the hub mounted cannon

On a Fw 190 A-5 you van lose 3 points of speed rating. 1 for the cannons 1 for the rockets and 1 for the bombs
that translates into:
24 km/hr slower than its nominal cruise speed of 420 
and
41 km/hr slower than its maximum boost speed of 689

 


Fair warning. My success rate at speculative guesswork is on par with my WinRate. Hit or Miss.
 I start on the right track and then sometimes make a weird left turn and get lost in the weeds ... 

Specialist Planes earned: Japan, USA, UK, Germany, USSR, Europe
Light Fighters:  Ar 68/80, Bf 109 B/E/E-3/F/G, Fw 159, He 51/100 D-1/112, Ho 229, Me 209 A/ v4/ P.1092, Spit.V DB605​, Ta 152 
Ki-5/8/10/27/43-I/43-II, A4N, A5M, A6M1, Hurricane Ia, Bristol 146, Spitfire Vb IM, DH.100 F1, I-17Yak-1MiG-3
P-23/36/36C/39N-1/40, XP-31/36F/55, Hawk 75M, Model 81A-1, , P-51A, XF15C

MultiRole Fighters: Type 91, P-12/26/35/43, XP-44, P-47B, F11C-2, F4F/U-1, 
TyphoonAr 65, Fw 190 A-1/5/D, BV P.210/212.03, I-5/15/16(e)(l)

Heavy Fighters: P-38 F/J, XP-58P-82 B, Beaufighter/ VAo 192, Fw 57, Bf 110 B/C-6/E, Me 410, Bf 109 Z, Do 335 A-1, Me 262, Tu-1, SE 100,

Attack Aircraft: BSh-2, Hs 123/129 A, Ha 137, Fw 189 C, Ju 87 G, Me 265, Me 1099 B-2
Bombers: B-17 G, Do 17 Z / 217 M, He 111 H2, Ju 288 C, Pe-2 

 


SpiritFoxMY #8 Posted 24 September 2018 - 12:50 AM

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View PostZaikadi, on 24 September 2018 - 02:47 AM, said:

Hey, I know this has probably been the topic of a thread before (I didn't know what key words to search with), but I wanted to expand on something that was mentioned in my P-40 thread and in some YouTube videos.

 

I bought equipment to improve the already potent speed of my P-40, and I'm happy with that decision; however, now that I have purchased the Bf 109 E, I feel that the speed is not in any way lacking for fighting with that plane. The only time I feel I want more is to get to other parts of the map. So I was considering focusing on improving the maneuverability of the 109--improving its weaknesses rather than its strengths. I have read in threads and heard in videos that the usual wisdom is to improve on a plane's strengths, that the boost to weaknesses is not very effective. On the other hand, a couple of you improved the maneuverability of your P-40s and supported that choice with good reasons.


So, I open the question to you folks (again?--sorry). Have you found that improving a B&Z plane's maneuverability (before improving speed) can make a significant difference? I have +3 crew skill points waiting for your input.


 

And thanks once again.

 

I'm of the improved turning school of thought, my reasons being:

 

1. Although you won't be able to outturn more maneuverable airplanes, it will improve your ability to keep your guns on them during the boom which in turn will boost your lethality (and thus reduce your vulnerability during the zoom)

 

2. You have to take into account the penalties - Polished Surfaces in particular drops your turn rate which means that planes with marginal turn (like the Würgers and Jugs) will suddenly find themselves prey to Lightnings and Zerstörers in a turnfight while not having sufficient speed to outrun them anyway.

 

3. Although some planes like the Messerschmitts, MiGs and Mustangs are referred to a BnZ planes, they're actually hybrids with a lot of potential for vertical energy fighting rather than pure boom in zoom out. The turn time can be critical for that (and by "that", I'm talking about high speed yo-yos and the like)


***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


Zaikadi #9 Posted 24 September 2018 - 02:38 AM

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One circumstance that I thought of adding something to the turning was when I was engaging a 109 with a P-40. I noticed it had the edge in the turns, by only by a narrow margin. I wondered if I would want to make that margin larger If I were flying a 109. It seems like in the few battles I've had, I have had a couple of times when a slight improvement on maneuverability could have made a difference. Yet, I wanted to ask you all if choosing those pilot skills would help much, considering things I've read like what ArrowZ wrote in Post #2.

Edited by Zaikadi, 24 September 2018 - 07:34 AM.

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Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate  |  Kawasaki Ki-102   |  Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien  |  Bell P-39N1 Airacobra  |  Heinkel He 111 H2  |  Polikarpov I-17  |  Curtiss P-40  |   Mitsubishi A6M5  |  Nakajima A4N  |  Messerschmidt Bf 109 B  |  Messerschmidt Bf 109 E  |  Polikarpov I-16 (e.)  |  Fairey Fantome  |  Me 410 Hornisse


SpiritFoxMY #10 Posted 24 September 2018 - 04:25 AM

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Well Pilot Skills is a different matter and I would argue that unless you have a Specialist airplane, Aerodynamic/Protection Expert are probably not really worthwhile compared to Engine Guru and/or Marksman.

 

It also depends on whether you're mixing and matching defensive equipment with performance equipment and how many of each are going on your plane since the value of those two skills is dependent on the number of equipment bonuses they buff.

 

If you're asking about the 2% Aerobatic Expert skill... you get better value out of simply maxing out your equipment and slapping the Aerodynamic Expert skill on instead. Its pretty much a "nice to have" skill rather than a critical one.


***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


Zaikadi #11 Posted 24 September 2018 - 07:33 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 24 September 2018 - 04:25 AM, said:

Well Pilot Skills is a different matter and I would argue that unless you have a Specialist airplane, Aerodynamic/Protection Expert are probably not really worthwhile compared to Engine Guru and/or Marksman.

 

It also depends on whether you're mixing and matching defensive equipment with performance equipment and how many of each are going on your plane since the value of those two skills is dependent on the number of equipment bonuses they buff.

 

If you're asking about the 2% Aerobatic Expert skill... you get better value out of simply maxing out your equipment and slapping the Aerodynamic Expert skill on instead. Its pretty much a "nice to have" skill rather than a critical one.

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear. You are correct: I was mainly referring to the crew skills. I've got a pilot with +3 skill points, and I wanted to distribute them in a way that might enhance my Bf 109 E and possibly some other reasonably maneuverable B&Zs in the future. But, since crew skills often work in tandem with equipment, all advice is welcome.

Favorite planes:

Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate  |  Kawasaki Ki-102   |  Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien  |  Bell P-39N1 Airacobra  |  Heinkel He 111 H2  |  Polikarpov I-17  |  Curtiss P-40  |   Mitsubishi A6M5  |  Nakajima A4N  |  Messerschmidt Bf 109 B  |  Messerschmidt Bf 109 E  |  Polikarpov I-16 (e.)  |  Fairey Fantome  |  Me 410 Hornisse


SpiritFoxMY #12 Posted 24 September 2018 - 08:10 AM

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View PostZaikadi, on 24 September 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear. You are correct: I was mainly referring to the crew skills. I've got a pilot with +3 skill points, and I wanted to distribute them in a way that might enhance my Bf 109 E and possibly some other reasonably maneuverable B&Zs in the future. But, since crew skills often work in tandem with equipment, all advice is welcome.

 

Go with either Engine Guru I or Marksman I for your first skill on the Emil. Marksman will improve lethality, Engine Guru will help your get in and out of trouble better. Aerodynamic Expert is only really useful once you hit Specialist and have boosted your Equipment to Advanced. 

 

The thing about these "energy fighters" is that extra horsepower translates directly into better performance in battle, not just straightline speed. You also keep that speed better in and recover it faster coming out of a turning fight, accelerate better under boost and have that wee bit more grunt at high altitudes.

 

Engine Guru is not just for BnZ


Edited by SpiritFoxMY, 24 September 2018 - 08:14 AM.

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But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


SpiritFoxMY #13 Posted 24 September 2018 - 08:15 AM

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My Emil pilot has Engine Guru I, Marksman I and Aerodynamic Expert

***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


GonerNL #14 Posted 24 September 2018 - 10:05 AM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 23 September 2018 - 11:56 PM, said:

I could be mistaken, but I thought for sure that on most planes, upgrading and adding guns to planes did not impact performance.

 

you can see it on the aircraft specs page : https://worldofwarpl...many/bf-109e/#?

 

adding the wing and hub 20mm's in the configuration will decrease airspeed and maneuverability a bit ... to my surprise. Thought that only bombs and rockets had that effect. 


Edited by GonerNL, 24 September 2018 - 10:07 AM.

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trikke #15 Posted 24 September 2018 - 01:02 PM

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the decision to build a bnz plane by stacking maneuverability components, both equipment and pilot skills, is a personal choice

 

most of us have stacked the traits that would accentuate, but others have not

 

it just makes more sense to most of us to play up the existing strengths of a stock plane, but maybe you'll catch us unawares in a future battle 

 

i do love folks that think outside of the box... 

 

edit:  but in a duel, i'll fly mine using my enhanced attributes, and you'll just be flying a mediocre plane with attributes that i won't let you utilize against me


Edited by trikke, 24 September 2018 - 01:03 PM.

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Martymart1976 #16 Posted 24 September 2018 - 04:13 PM

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My 109 E-3 is up to 81 maneuverability with pilot skills, ultimate lightweight airframe 478 and light engine 478.  I can sometimes keep up and get the bounce on Spitfires and Zeros. If I can dive down and kill or heavily damage a Spitfire or flame up the Zero in the initial attack pass I can win...if not well it's off to Valhalla for me...

 

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jack_wdw #17 Posted 24 September 2018 - 05:16 PM

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View PostGonerNL, on 24 September 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

 

you can see it on the aircraft specs page : https://worldofwarpl...many/bf-109e/#?

 

adding the wing and hub 20mm's in the configuration will decrease airspeed and maneuverability a bit ... to my surprise. Thought that only bombs and rockets had that effect. 

 

I remember that the difference for this bird was quite huge in the previous meta.
With the wing root cannons installed, i could only get 500 km/h as top speed combined with various upgrades and a 5 star pilot.
In the end i removed the wingcannons and the plane became a lot more faster (+40 km/h) and maneuverability also became better.

Since i've got the Bf109- E3  from the dunkirk event, i sold my stock 109E.

StoptheViolins #18 Posted 24 September 2018 - 06:49 PM

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If turning bled off more speed like it should then this convo would be moot.

ArrowZ_ #19 Posted 25 September 2018 - 01:28 AM

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View PostStoptheViolins, on 25 September 2018 - 04:19 AM, said:

If turning bled off more speed like it should then this convo would be moot.

 

In this game, if you apply both flaps and speed brakes (0% throttle) at the same time your speed will drop in 1-2 seconds in stall zones. This really only greatly benefits TnBs and on some rare occasions the BnZs when they need to gain extra gun time on target. But in most common situations when BNZs do this without watching their airspeed, they lose A LOT of their energy retention therefore lose the advantage they had in BnZ before applying both flaps and speed brakes. It's all situational really and the judgement is purely on the player and not the aircraft itself. As most of the planes in this game do bleed speed pretty quick if you do these 2 methods instantaneously in quick succession. One interesting exception is the P-80A... You'll know what I mean if you've flown that t8 beast regularly. The thing just loves to generate surplus speed on the dive with very little boost and even if you apply flaps and speed brakes together. There may be others like the P-80A but it's the one aircraft that is quite pronounced.

 

Back to the OP

 

Like spirit said, you'll only start to see big differences in performances once you get more pilot skills and pass advanced tiers in equipment. 3 Pilot skills isn't enough to warrant a "huge" change in performances. You need at the very least 5-6 skill points to start specc'ing the plane you want for either a TnB style or BnZ.

 

So what this means for you is to play your P-40/109E some more and grind those pilot skill points & materials to get to near ultimate tiers with enough points to combine the effects of EQPS and pilot skills so their effects are pronounced for either a TnB playstyle or BnZ.

 

TLDR:

It's too early to say at the current stage of your grind. Just keep playing more and play around with the pilot skills. And use the dev blog where it shows the the new equipment red & green % values for the higher tiers up to ultimate. This will give you a rough gauge at where you want your aircraft to be. Link is above the forums page under "blog".


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CorvusCorvax #20 Posted 30 September 2018 - 06:34 PM

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What ArrowZ said.  I have always specced my heavies with more engine and more guns.  I tried giving my Bf-110E more turning, but really all it did was give me an advantage over unwary P-38Fs and other Bf-110Es.  Frankly, I'm getting to the point where the only time I think about adding turning ability to an aircraft is if that aircraft was built for that to begin with.  Yaks, Zeros, Spits.  Otherwise, engines, gun sights, and guns, and their corresponding pilot skills.

 

My Bf-109E is all about the engines, guns and pilot skills to match.  It excels at doing exactly that - and there is no equal at-tier.






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