12 replies to this topic

[hawkeyededic]

First of all I want to thank everyone that has provided input on my previous discussions. I hope people have come away with a better idea or maybe even a different on how to employee the planes discussed so far.

 

This week lets talk about the German Gunships, the T-5 Ju.87G Stuka, Hs.129 "Duck" and the Tier-6 Ju.88P.

 

Let us please keep this discussion on track and not let it derail to how bad or good you think these planes are, but how to get the most out of them in their current state.

 

At top configuration these three planes rely exclusively on big guns to deal damage to ground targets, one or 2 37mm guns on the Stuka and "Duck" respectively and a single 50mm on the Junkers. These much maligned planes create a bottle neck for a lot of players working their way up the German GAA tech tree, with no real way to bypass them short of free-xp.

 

What equipment do you prefer to use? What about pilot skills? Finally what tactics and/or strategies do you prefer when flying these big gunned beasts?

 

I am myself going to abstain from this discussion as all of my time in them, with the exception of 2 or 3 battles, was during the pre-2.0 days when these planes were at their pinnacle of effectiveness.

 

 

[wylleEcoyote]

After 250+sorties in a Stuka i may have a few words on the subject
OK ready? Gogogogogo ....

Coming to the Stuka from just about anything else and the first thing you will notice is ...
That had more than a few words on the subject
The TL;DR is that i tell you what it feels like to fly this thing for the first time.
And neat stuff on how to go about doing so with as much success as the plane allows.
 

Wall o' Text Part One

FIrst thing first...
No. [edited]. Bombs. 
No Jericho sirens. none of that cool stuff. The closest thing to that is the HA 137. A premium tier 3 GAA with a gull wing, 4 50kg bombs, and 2 20mm cannon
(and in truth is right about where an early stuka would be in the tech tree.)

The next thing to notice is just how ssssslllllooooooowwwww this plane is. Much like the Eule (Owl)
 before it. at tier 4. Even with 2 engine upgrades its still slow. So very slow. Downloading porn in the early nineties slow.

Lots of Boost though. which you will only use to get from one target area to the next. And it absolutely Is Not Fast Enough to run away from someone that chooses to take an interest in you. boost or no boost.

 How slow is it really?

It has a stall speed of a Cessna.
 

Spoiler

Dont let the dangling landing gear fool you. Those are not wheels. That is just a hit box for ground collisions. Because this is WarGaming and Nazi planes and their users can not have nice things.
You can absolutely use those flaps and stall out over a runway at 3 meters altitude for a perfect 3 point landing.
And you will just crash. Trust me.

So you can make anyone but another stuka over shoot you. which is nice. (this will be important later)
Speaking of shooting; the gunner (at best) gets 2x 7.62 mm guns to use. All it really does is let you know there is someone lining up to shoot you.
Until you get skill points. once you get defensive fire and extend it with ballistics expert you can find yourself picking up some stray self defense ribbons.

The plane is very tough and can handle getting shot at for a while by most light machine guns and even the low level AAA.  Until it catches a stray cannon shell or two. Then you die. So don't get shot at unless you HAVE to. 
But how mr. coyote? You said it is so slow.
Stuka is surprisingly maneuverable.
But dont let that trick you into dog fighting what ever light defense craft you see along with whatever spits yaks and zeros are near by. 
Its your "so slow everyone will over shoot you" that maintains your survival.
ProTip:

If you key bind your yaw controls you can make a flat horizontal 360 degree turn that costs you no altitude at all
in what seems like 3 plane lengths while puttering along at 65km/hr. I do not know of any other plane in its tier that can do that.
ANd an unpleasant surprise for an enemy on your 6 that thinks you're easy meat.
All of a sudden they are in the one place you Dont want to be, In Front of a GAA
Useful if you feel the need to focus on not getting shot over the need to getting other things shot.
This "Bootlegger's" rudder turn is also important later when i get to equipment choices.

Now for the good stuff. Its called "Cannon Bird" for a reason. That reason is [edited]Love Cannons.
your first option is 2x 20mm cannon.

As we all know, a well placed burst of 20mm cannon shells is the perfect way for turning an airplane into an expanding debris field. 
And what a great set of guns they are. 720m range on a tier 5 plane that is low and slow enough to be confused for a mobile AA gun. You can make short work of anything with wings that you get in front of you with sufficient skill. Its just too bad that you dont get many points for it. and the cool down can kick in at really inconvenient times so mount a gun cooling consumable until you get used to the gun.

Because your Ground Attack! Shoot the things that hold still.
But pick your targets with care.
Wherever you choose to go; Unarmored Buildings and Tents should be your primary target.
AA guns as well. (the less they are shooting your team the better)

ProTip:

when you destroy the gun but not all the buildings attached to it the gun will not spawn back.
if your attacking a red base this should be your priority. Its easy damage to farm. you get points for doing it. And your teammates will appreciate it.
If your attacking a neutral base and there are reds contesting the cap its ok to leave the AAA alone and let it shoot at the red team while you focus on more high value targets.

Anything that is either big or armored (like those bunkers next to some AA guns) you should ignore
unless it has almost no health. Then by all means finish it off so you can grab them capture points.

This means that you should ignore Factory plants. Unless you are with a group and someone else can focus on flattening the big stuff in which case by all means Get in there and kill those AA guns. it is about the only thing in the area you can.

Airfields are chock full of lightly or un armored targets. Easy meat for your guns.

Spoiler

Even most of the AAA batteries dont have armored bunkers next to them. So by all means take the time to shoot the whole emplacement for those cap points. Leave nothing behind for someone else to finish off. You wont have to worry about the tower because if you are not going in alone the air defense planes shot down by your team will  take care of the rest of the cap.
But if you go in alone those light defense planes will come at you from all sides.
Even your ability to turn on a dime and absorb punishment will be hard pressed to survive when the heavy defense fighters points their cannons at you.

Garrisons and Military plants have less aircraft to hurt you but they have less juicy targets too.
But not to worry there is enough light targets (tents and buildings and AA guns) to shoot that you can flip the zone by your third pass. Dont leave any position you choose to attack unfinished except aa emplacements. Anything you miss you can turn right around and finish off. 

Command Centers are different. The large buildings are not armored so much but they seem to have a lot of bits and pieces to destroy. The AA destroyers in harbor are similar. You can kill them, but it a fair amount of effort (except for the gun itself that is still easy to silence).  They also have many light buildings and tents for you to focus on if you want.

All in all a fun time is had.
Sure you accept that if you go into a zone you either capture it or you die
(because you are too slow to escape) But one can get used to it.

And then you unlock the 37mm guns. And everything Changes

First thing you notice is OMG they can hit a non moving target a kilometer and a half away! At Tier Five!
You can target and shoot AAA from outside the cap circle!

Second thing you notice is these cannons fire as fast as the plane flies. SOOO SLOOOWW

Third thing you notice is they hit you like a Mac Truck. One hit will destroy all your primary targets.
You can delete a whole tent city in less than one pass (if you start shooting from 1200m)
But your guns over heat so quick you are still hard pressed to get in your five+ 2x shots needed to kill hard targets in one pass. (even if you start shooting at max range while going at just a bit above stall speed)

its too bad that planes rarely hold still long enough to get hit by these guns.
But it is such a delicious schadenfreude when it happens

These changes are pretty fierce and if you just wanna move on down the line there is no reason to mount them. You can keep using the 2x 20mm cannons and move on down the line. But if you for what ever reason want to specialize the bird you need to get used to the 37's as that is what the specialist loadout uses.

Sure would be nice of we could tinker with these guns a bit.  they have such ... potential.

Which i will get to in part 2. where i discuss equipment and skills. but i must to bed because work is at 3 am.

Part 2  Equipment, consumables and pilot Perks.

The stock bird (or if you would rather keep to the more forgiving 20's)  gives you 2 equipment slots to work with, Airframe and Forward Mounted Gun.
Each one allowing you to get up to One Enhancement to the Improved level plus all the Calibration you want up to 258. You can take it further but the extra effects wont count for the plane.

Airframe:

Reinforced Skin

 This is a fun bit of kit. Used well and you will almost never hear you wingman say "there is a hole in your Left wing". And your Tail will always be ready to let you pull a bootlegger's turn on demand.  With 5-13 % added to your Wings and Tail Critical resistance.  Ultimate gear takes it up to 37%
Nothing is free though. This craphas some weight to it and you lose 1-2% of you max cruise speed and boost speed. Ultimate takes it up to 3.8%

All in all a small price to pay.  Personally i feel this thing is slow enough as is; but it may be just what you want.

Bonus stuff:
Improved: a +5% tolerance to AA gun damage or an Additional 5% extra crit resistance for your tail. Both are pretty sweet.
Advanced: additional 10% AA damage tolerance  or +5% Aircraft HP
Ultimate:  additional 5% wing crit resist  or 1% bonus cruise speed. (that doesnt seem like much but it negates more than a quarter of your main penalty) 

 

Reinforced Airframe

 This is what i use. 'cause nothing pisses off someone more than when they take some shots at you and still have 150 hp left as they over shoot.
Equipping it makes this bird roll much slower than normal and its effect is like your flying a Boat instead of a plane. And i have found myself clipping antenae and buildings and trees and planes and mountains because i cant twist the plane enough in time. (ok maybe not mountains)  ...
But the penalty has No Effect on your Yaw axis turns. (hehehe) So that Bootleggers Turn is still a viable tactic. (hahaha)
and you can still fly this bird at lower than roof top level on purpose and not worry too much about flying into anything by accident.
(again as long as you use that rudder)
The Good: 4-8% HP bonus. Max is 20%
The Bad: -4% Roll Maneuverability. Max is -15%
The bonus stuff
Improved: 10% fire resistance or 10% Crit Resist for the Tail
Advanced: 10% AA resistance Or  10% Crit Resist for the Wing
Ultimate: +3% HP or +5% Roll Maneuverability

 

 

Lightweight Wing Frame

 Y U DO THIS?

 

Polished Skin

 Speed is good. I eventually decided against this because getting to the fight faster is nice but once im there ill be going so low and slow that it dont matter to me.
also at that point I'd rather have the HP.  Something to consider; taking aerobatic expert with the ultimate bonus  will almost negate entirely the penalty.

The Good: +2-4% Cruise speed and Dive acceleration. Max is 10%
The Bad: -1% yaw maneuverability and maneuverability in turns.  Max is 3.8%
The Bonus stuff
Improved: +1% Yaw maneuverability or +2% Acceleration in a Dive
Advanced: +1% Cruise Speed or +3% Acceleration in a Dive
Ultimate: +1% Maneuverability in Turns  or +1% Max Speed in Boost

The Guns
are a bit trickier as there is no "Wrong Way" for their use.
Each one is good on its own but they do favor particular things if you REALLY wanna throw silver and tokens at reassembling gear until its juuuust right
It seems counter intuitive but  ... lemmie explain
 

Reinforced Bolt Carrier

This is how you get a better Gun. With the single (painful) exception of accuracy;
this bit of kit makes every other stat (hard and soft) better simply by letting you shoot more ammo before cooldown kicks in
The Good. + 4-9% to burst length of forward armament.  Maximum goes to +28.4% (every third shot is free!)
 The Bad. - 3-8% to Accuracy of Forward guns.  Maximum penalty is -15.6% 

The combined bonus for Both Marksman skills is only 10%. so penalty can hurt bad. Once again, one of the ultimate bonuses can take the edge off.
A tricked out GunSight  also helps but you may need that for the other gun slot. #JustSayin'

The Bonus this is where all the sweetness happens
Improved: +2% Rate of Fire  or +5% Rate of Cooldown for Forward weapons
Advanced: +3%Rate of Fire  or +10% Rate of Cooldown for forward guns
Ultimate: +5% Bonus Burst Length  or 5% bonus to accuracy  (MOAR DAKKA or More Aiming)

 

Gas Operated Action

If there is one thing the Stuka needs it's MOAR DAKKA!  This is the bit of kit you use to make it happen.
It is also good for anyone that doesnt want to use the 37's and still be a firestarter. (bring a gun coolant)

The Good:  +4% to +15.2% to Rate of Fire of Forward guns.
The Bad: -3% to -14.2% to Accuracy of Forward guns
Much like the Bolt carriers the accuracy penalty is pretty stiff.  at the non specialist level its not so bad and marksman 1 will keep you covered

If you DO wanna take it to the limit a gun sight with max fire chance is very helpful ... like start a fire with every 3rd shot kind of helpful.
Which means you shoot at the big targets now and not take all day to destroy them. Quite the game changer there...

The Bonuses
Improved:  +5% cool-down rate of forward guns  or  +5% chance of fire starting
Advanced: +10% cool-down rate of forward guns  or  +10% chance of fire starting
Ultimate: +2.5% to Rate of Fire of Forward guns  or  +5% to Accuracy of Forward Guns.

 

Long Gun Barrels

 Gentlemen. Imagine what you could do with a few more inches in the right places ...
The Good: + 4 - 15.2% to the optimal Firing Range of Forward guns.
The Bad: - 3 - 17% to Burst Length   hmm I do believe that sound you hear is the sound of WG russling your Jimmies

The Bonus stuff: once again this is where the magic happens. Remember these effects stack
 Improved:   +5% chance of inflicting Critical Damage  or +5% Accuracy to Forward Guns (thats a free Marksman 1)
Advanced: +10% chance of inflicting Critical Damage  or +5% Damage inflicted by Forward Guns
ULTRAAA: +3% More Firing Range  or +5% Burst length (again almost 1/3 of the main penalty is removed)
 

It is worth mentioning that WG specifically tells us in the tooltips that large bore auto cannons like the 37mm already have a high critical chance.
I have the long barrels on a different 37mm armed plane, the P-38. When i got that 15% increased Crit the difference was Very Noticable Indeed.
Slap on an advanced sight and you could have a combined 30% bonus Crit Chance
before you tack on Universal Ammo or spend gold on High Explosive Armor Piercing for maximum damage to ground targets.

 You could train the Pilot with Raptor strike and make a dive from 1600 meters or so 
your cannons would get an additional 50%  chance to start a fire and cause a Critical hit. 
It only seems insane until you remember that the Stuka is, was, and ever shall be  ...  a Dive Bomber 

Hold up stop typing.  I know it is ridiculous.
But the point of the OP was to figure out how to make the most of this bird.
I suppose someone should ask the Devs if it is possible to critical a ground target at all before jumping to any conclusions or training rooms to test the theory ...

ill need a crit gun sight, polished skin,  crit long barrels some trim adjusters for that extra kick when pulling out of the dive, a note from a doctor, some duct tape notification of Next of Kin ...

Your final option is to spec out and open up that second gun slot and a gunsight for the cockpit.

Gear

first aid kit. when the pilot takes a hit i cant hit the broad side of a factory.
exhaust bleed inerting system to stop fires before they start (specialist only)
Improved Mixture control. its a free engine guru 1
Universal ammo for the main guns. Duh.
Universal ammo for the turret. Every little bit helps. (specialist only)

Edited by wylleEcoyote, 19 September 2018 - 08:32 PM.

[LMG]

One thing to keep in mind with these planes is that, unlike the soviet GAAs, the guns are vastly superior. How much? Well, a single german 37mm cannon deals as much damage as the two soviet 37mm cannons on the IL-2. With that in mind the planes follow a similar general pattern, but they diverge quite a bit.

 

With the duck you can choose to either use the 37mm cannon or the four bombs. The bombs are extremely lackluster for the tier, but they can still do some work. However, with the Specialist Configuration you're stuck with the 37mm cannon. It deals enough damage to one-shot soft buildings, while armored ones will take 5 shots to tackle. However, unlike the other planes of this type, the Duck also has access to 20mm cannons and machine guns, which means it can attempt to start fires somewhat reliably, increasing its effectiveness in ground pounding. A burning building will go down much faster, to the point you can just let it burn out and go for another target as soon as you see the flames. The plane's also faster than the other GAAs at tier 5, so keep that in mind if trouble's coming your way, as the Duck has no reargunner. If you have the bombs, you can try for bombkills on hostile aircraft. If not, you better know some fancy maneuvers to get you out of trouble .

 

The Stuka has a very rough grind from stock, only equipping 20mm cannons. They can try to deal some damage to soft buildings, but they're not great against armored ones unless you get lucky with fires. Your best bet is to shoot down a few aircraft since the Stuka's fairly maneuverable for a GAA. With the twin 37mm cannons you can one-shot soft buildings, but it'll still take about 5 volleys to destroy armored buildings (not sure if less). The plane's main strength is its anti-GAA capacity, as nothing at the tier can really take it on in a dogfight. The reargun is nice to have, but don't expect it to magically keep you alive .

 

The Ju 88 P works basically like a better Stuka. With the single 50mm cannon you one-shot soft buildings, but armored ones still take 5 shots (see the pattern yet?). However, it shoots faster and from longer range than the 37s, making it a lot better overall. Reargunner's improved, but it's still not enough to reliably deal with many of the enemies you'll face without a skilled reargunner. In fact, it deals less damage than the one on the IL-2 (t) .

 

With the big cannons all the planes play similarly. My suggestion is to first clear the AA guns from afar, then slowly chip away at the ground targets. Try to find the minimum number of ground targets you'll need to get the cap, and preferably refrain from shooting at one for too long. In fact, try to always have something to shoot at so you make constant progress, and use your brakes and flaps to give you aditional time to shoot at things (just don't stall while at it). However, with the Duck you can also try to "farm for fires"; aka, spray your 20s and machine guns over several ground targets hoping that they'll be lit on fire. Just keep in mind you lose some DPS by not focusing each one down individually.

 

The Duck with the bombs plays... odd. The bombs are far too weak to really make much of an impact, but they still deal quite a bit of damage, allowing it to dispatch armored buildings quickly, but leaving the plane with little to do while the bombs are recharging aside of taking out soft buildings and farming for fires. But you also get the advantage of having a self-defense mechanism, so try them both and see what sticks.

 

If at any point you're against another GAA over a neutral sector, it'd be wise to attempt to shoot them down, or get the last hit on any building they're attacking to "steal" their points. The Stuka will beat all of them in a turnfight, so avoid it at all costs unless you have your own. If an enemy fighter's aproaching you, your real chance to survive is to take them down in a head-on engagement, in which the Duck excels thanks to the extra guns available. In a flight it's best to use them with something that has ordnance, preferably large bombs or a lot of smaller ones, like a Bomber of a Multirole. Let them dump their payload and go in to finish the job. For equipment I highly advise additional HP and as much gun accuracy as possible, as well as increased rate of fire, if only for a lack of a better option .

 

As a bonus, here's a match on my Ju 88 P I got during Summer Storm :

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Zinro]

I boosted accuracy and maneuverability and anytime I ran across an enemy GA, I would attack that plane before ground targets.  When I attacked ground targets, I would first get rid of AA, then soft targets, and then make passes on hard targets.  If at anytime during ground targets an enemy plane presented itself in front of me, I would try to hit it.  It is really satisfying landing one of those rounds in an enemy plane.

[Gullygnome]

I liked the Ju88 P. That cannon packs a punch and is point and click accurate.

 

And one shotting planes at 1300? Mmhmmh.

 

Me329 is godlike compared, though.

[trikke]

great topic!

 

LMG is the hands-down expert on GAs, i agree with his decisions, and i recommend his advice to new folks

 

i do love all three, but i didn't keep the Stuka      i fly the Hs 129 almost every day, and double love it, in particular 

 

the long-range pinpoint-accurate guns on specced mid-tier german GAs make me smile like a kid at a carnival

[Wombatmetal]

On the Duck and Ju 88, learn to count.

 

1...2...3...4...5 shells and switch targets before it blows up, because it will blow up. If you can get in that rhythm you will become more efficient.

[Cenotaph]

Are the gunboats really so maligned?

 

I kept my JU-88P, and have been toying with the idea of repurchasing the JU-87...   

[LMG]

Cenotaph, on 18 September 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

Are the gunboats really so maligned?

 

I kept my JU-88P, and have been toying with the idea of repurchasing the JU-87...   

 

They're not horrid, they're just subpar. The Me 265 and 329 get away with it thanks to their severe speed advantage over the soviets, as well as having ordnance. Just using cannons is inefficient and time-consuming when compared to one-shotting a cluster of armored buildings with one bomb (hence why I used to run the Duck with bombs over the 37 until I figured out just how much damage it actually dealt, and I still have my doubts), especially considering how slow most of them fire. I already made a thread for what I consider reasonable buffs for the planes over at the Suggestions subforum some time ago. You can make these planes work, but they're a bit too far behind in terms of what they can accomplish in a battle 

[Wombatmetal]

The payoff is tier 10

 

You get between sectors quicker in the meantime

 

And learning how to snipe in my Stuka had a real payoff when I started Yak multi roles

[MadJackChurchil]

hawkeyededic, on 18 September 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

...with no real way to bypass them short of free-xp.

 

Disagree. You can bypass them through the bomber line. You can also get to the T7 heavy fighters through the bomber line.

But a good topic indeed. I still keep my Stuka (with snow camo it looks like a dalmatian), but after getting 37 mm and finding out I cannot really kill planes with it and struggle with buildings... I went for the bomber line.

[hawkeyededic]

MadJackChurchil, on 18 September 2018 - 08:40 PM, said:

 

Disagree. You can bypass them through the bomber line. You can also get to the T7 heavy fighters through the bomber line.

But a good topic indeed. I still keep my Stuka (with snow camo it looks like a dalmatian), but after getting 37 mm and finding out I cannot really kill planes with it and struggle with buildings... I went for the bomber line.

 

yeah, I forgot about the bomber line being a route to bypass them with. I got all my German bombers from boxes during the Albion event, so never had to grind on that line.

[GonerNL]

To be honest, I ditched the Ju-87 and Ju-88P as soon as I got the Me-265 (EU account) ... but I decided to give the Hs-129 a chance on my NA account and I really like it. 

In this plane I could at least defend myself a bit and attack other GA, because it's reasonably manoeuvrable and it has 20mm's and mg's besides the 37mm.

Put armor (cockpit/airframe) and long gun barrels (other 2 options have negative accuracy) and protection expert and marksman (I think) on it to stay alive and hit stuff.

It's great at shooting up AA to give your GA and bombers some time to take out the real targets.

Edited by GonerNL, 19 September 2018 - 02:13 PM.