24 replies to this topic

[J311yfish]

Just a poll for fun -- What is the ultimate tier IV biplane?

 

Tier II

Boeing P-26 Peashooter (03/1932) -- U.S., China -- P-26B (06/1935); P-26 delivery 02/1936; Model 281 export to China 12/1935-01/1936

Dewoitine D.500 (06/1932) -- France -- first production flight 11/1934; entered service 05/1935

Curtiss XP-31 Swift (07/1932) -- U.S.

Grumman F2F (10/1933)

 

Tier III

Avia B-534 (~06/1934) --  Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Germany, more -- ordered 07/1934; 445 ordered total

Avia Bk-534 (~06/1934) --  Czechoslovakia; 54 ordered total

Dewoitine D.510 (08/1934) -- France -- entered service 1937; 381 built (88 for France)

Grumman F3F (03/1935) -- U.S.

Curtiss Hawk 75M (05/1935) -- U.S., China

 

Tier IV

Fairey Fantôme (06/1935) -- U.K. -- 4 built

Seversky P-35 (08/1935) -- U.S.

Morane-Saulnier MS.405 (08/1935) -- France -- operational testing 05/1938; 16 built

Hawker Hurricane (10/1935) -- introduced 12/1937

Messerschmitt Bf 109 -- mockup inspection 10/1934; first public appearance 08/1936

Gloster Gladiator (01/1937) -- U.K., Sweden, Finland, China -- introduced U.K. 02/1937; Sea Gladiator U.K. 12/1938+

Blériot-SPAD S.710 (04/1937) -- France -- 1 built; competed against D.513, LN 160/161, Bloch 150, Loire 250, MS.405

Arado Ar 197 (early 1937) -- Germany -- 3 built

Polikarpov I-153 (1937) -- U.S.S.R., China, Finland

Bloch MB.150 (09/1937) -- France -- first flight attempted 07/1937 but failed to leave the ground; 1 in service by 04/1939

Morane-Saulnier MS.406 (05/1938) -- France, Germany, Finland, more -- first production flight 01/1939

Fiat CR.42 Falco (05/1938) -- Italy -- from CR.40-41 1934-1937; delivered 04/1939+; 1782 built

Canadian Car and Foundry FDB-1 (12/1938) -- 1 built -- Canada

Polikarpov I-170 (cancelled 1939) -- 0 built -- U.S.S.R.

Polikarpov I-190 (12/1939) -- at least 1 built -- U.S.S.R.

Polikarpov I-195 (project 1940) -- 0 built -- U.S.S.R.

Polikarpov I-153 DM-4 (10/1940) -- U.S.S.R.

Nikitin-Shevchenko IS (11/1940) -- 2 built -- U.S.S.R.

Borovkov-Florov I-207/4 (1941) -- U.S.S.R.

Fiat CR.42B (early 1941) -- Italy

Fiat CR.42 A.S. (01/1942) -- Italy

something else -- post below

 

Tier V

Arsenal-Delanne AD 10C2 (10/1941) -- France -- prototype completed 06/1940; tandem-wing configuration

 

 

Which of these would you like to see in game?

Edited by J311yfish, 04 August 2019 - 09:15 PM.

[SpiritFoxMY]

Gladiator! Specifically the one flown by Arthur "Art" Chin for the ROCAF

[Trophy_Wench]

Avia B.534! Obscure Czech fighters FTW!

[Xr901]

The gladiator, really any gladiator, although if i had a choice, the sea gladiator. As i understand it at least some were fitted with 2 extra .303s, bringing the total to 6.

 

 

Throw another vote in for Avia B-534. You could add them in to the German tech tree, since that's where most of them ended up.

[Wombatmetal]

Xr901, on 13 September 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

The gladiator, really any gladiator, although if i had a choice, the sea gladiator. As i understand it at least some were fitted with 2 extra .303s, bringing the total to 6.

 

 

Throw another vote in for Avia B-534. You could add them in to the German tech tree, since that's where most of them ended up.

 

Sea Gladiators flew the defense of Malta. One of my most desired planes, probably 2nd on my list

[hawkeyededic]

Trophy_Wench, on 13 September 2018 - 09:12 PM, said:

Avia B.534! Obscure Czech fighters FTW!

 

Something missed in that article is that on September 2, 1944, Master Sergeant František Cyprich shot down a Junkers Ju.52 transport with Hungarian markings for the last recorded air-to-air victory by a biplane.

[Martymart1976]

It would be funny to have a Red Baron vs Snoopy mode on April Fools day, provided all the legalese could be settled...

[SonicPariah]

The Gladiator Line is definitely one I would love to see!

[J311yfish]

added Avia B-534, Polikarpov I-153 DM-4, Borovkov-Florov I-207/4

 

[jack_wdw]

I'm convinced that Polikarpov's I-153 > CR.42 > Gladiator 

But the Grumman F3F would also be more or less on par with the I-153.
(The avia B-534 was bit too slow compared to those 3)

but this one i would also like to see in game:
the canadian built Gregor FDB1

https://en.wikipedia...d_Foundry_FDB-1

the following one would have maybe been the best performer of all.
The soviet Nikitin-Shevchenko IS  fighter (with polymorphic wing --> biplane at low speed that folds into monoplane gullwing at high speeds)
1100 hp M63 engine and 4 Shkas MG's

Edited by jack_wdw, 16 September 2018 - 09:05 AM.

[jack_wdw]

I wonder if Gladiator and CR.42, if they ever make it to the game, would feature as tier IV.
At tier IV in the british tree, you already have the hurricane which was the logical successor to the gladiator.

[trikke]

i'd love to get my hands on a I-207/4     they look like they would be fun to fly

 

edit:  please ping me if you ever see one for sale or in the tech tree?

Edited by trikke, 16 September 2018 - 07:45 PM.

[J311yfish]

 

jack_wdw, on 16 September 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

I wonder if Gladiator and CR.42, if they ever make it to the game, would feature as tier IV.
At tier IV in the british tree, you already have the hurricane which was the logical successor to the gladiator.

 

I did an extensive comparison of the Fiat CR.42 and Gloster Gladiator to in-game aircraft and modules (here under Fiat CR.42).  Based on that engine comparison, I believe that both would be tier III, with possible exception for armament or airframe (which are more difficult to quantify).  The CR.42 was experimentally fitted with 20mm cannons and a DB.601 engine (not necessarily both at the same time), either of which could push it to tier IV.

 

Here is a list of everything so far -- perhaps more could be added

 

Tier	First Flight	Production	Aircraft	Engine	Speed	Armament	Bombs/Rockets	Country
III	~06/1934	568	Avia B-534	Hispano-Suiza 12Ydrs 860hp @ 4000m	405km/h @ 4400m	4x7.92mm	yes	Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Germany, more
III	03/1935       12/1938 del.	~167	Grumman F3F Grumman F2F-1 / XF3F-1 Grumman F3F-1 Grumman F3F-2 Grumman F3F-3	Pratt & Whitney R-1535-72 650hp Pratt & Whitney R-1535-84 700hp Wright Cyclone R-1820-22 950hp	420 km/h*	2x12.7mm M2 (S)	2x100 lb	U.S.A.
IV	06/1935	4	Fairey Fantôme	Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 925hp	430 k/mh	1x20mm Oerlikon S9 (H) + 2x7.7mm Browning (S)		U.K., Belgium
	09/1934 01/1939 12/1938 del.	378 270 98	Gloster Gladiator Mk.I Gloster Gladiator Mk.II Gloster Sea Gladiator	Bristol Mercury IX 830hp Bristol Mercury VIIIA or VIIIAS 830hp Bristol Mercury VIIIA or VIIIAS 830hp	407 km/h @ 4419m 414 km/h @ 4449m​ 407 km/h @ 4449m	2x7.7mm Browning (S) + 2x7.7mm Lewis or Vickers K 4x7.7mm 4-6x7.7mm	yes yes yes	U.K., Sweden (06/1937), Finland (01/1940), China U.K., Sweden (07/1938), Finland (01/1940) U.K.
	04/1937	1	Blériot-SPAD S.710	Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs 860hp	450-470 km/h est.	1x20mm (H) + 4x7.5mm (W) + 1x7.5mm (rear)		France
IV	early 1937*	1	Arado Ar 197	BMW 132Dc	400 km/h @ 2500m	2x20mm MG-FF (W) + 2x7.92mm MG-17 (1940) (S)	4xSD 50	Germany
	__/1937	3,437	Polikarpov I-153	Shvetsov M-62 1000hp	444 km/h	4x7.62mm ShKAS* (cannon variants)	up to 200 kg	U.S.S.R., China (76), Finland (22), Japan
	01/1939*	1,782	Fiat CR.42 Falco	FIAT A.74 R.C.38 840hp @ 3810m	342 km/h @ SL 397 km/h @ 3000m 430 km/h @ 5000m 441 km/h @ 6096m​	1x7.7mm + 1x12.7mm (S) -- first series 2x12.7mm Breda-SAFAT (S) -- later 2x12.7mm Breda-SAFAT (S) + 2x12.7mm (W)* -- some		Italy
IV	10/1940	1	Polikarpov I-153 DM-4	M-62 + 2xDM-4	460 km/h	4x7.62mm ShKAS (1933) (S)		U.S.S.R.
IV	__/1941	1	Borovkov-Florov I-207/4	M-63R	490 km/h	4x7.62mm (S)	2xFAB-100	U.S.S.R.
	early 1941	1	Fiat CR.42B	Daimler-Benz DB 601A  1010hp ​	520 km/h			Italy
V	__/1941		Arsenal-Delanne AD 10C2	Hispano-Suiza 12Y 860hp	520 km/h	1x20mm HS-404 (H) + 2x7.5mm MAC 1934 (W) + 2x7.5mm MAC 1934 (rear)		France
	01/1942		Fiat CR.42 A.S.	FIAT A.74 R.C.38 840hp @ 3810m		2-4x12.7mm Breda-SAFAT (S)	2x100 kg (W)	Italy

 

*Notes:

-- The Grumman F3F was an improvement of the basic F2F design (correction of directional instability) which originated in 1932; XF2F-1 prototype ordered 11/02/1932. (Francillon, 78-83)

-- The fastest Grumman biplane was the Grumman G-22 Gulfhawk II with F3F fuselage, F2F wings, Cyclone 1000hp engine; maximum speed 467 km/h; aerobatic demonstrator for Gulf Oil Company. (Gunston, 23)

-- The Fairey Fantôme/Féroce was designed in 1934; though the Belgian order was cancelled, the 4th prototype was retained for study 1937-06/1939 with interest in its remote-controlled armament. (Taylor, 263)

-- The Gloster Gladiator was an improvement upon the Gloster SS.19 / Gauntlet (confirm).

-- The Arado Ar 197 in-game is actually the Ar 197 V3, the third and final prototype, model for production, appeared late summer 1937. It was cancelled when it was realized that the intended carrier Graf Zeppelin would take over 2 years to be completed. (Green, 42-43)

-- The Fiat CR.42 was an improvement of the Fiat CR.32 (04/1933) design by way of the CR.33 (09/1935-1937), CR.40 (early 1934), CR.40bis (1934-1937), CR.41 (05/1935).  The CR.32 design was an improvement upon the CR.30 design (1933-1934). (information from various sources cited here)

-- "A small number of CR.42's were fitted with two underwing 20mm cannon in panniers." (Cattaneo, 10)

-- Fiat CR.42 first flight 01/1939; developed from Fiat CR.41 first flight 1936. (Gunston, 248)

 

 

To be added:

-- Canadian Car and Foundry FDB-1 (12/1938) -- 1 built

-- Nikitin-Shevchenko IS (11/1940) -- 2 built

-- Polikarpov I-170 (cancelled 1939) -- 0 built

-- Polikarpov I-190 (12/1939) -- at least 1 built

-- Polikarpov I-195 (project 1940) -- 0 built

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 04 August 2019 - 03:34 PM.

[J311yfish]

additional Polikarpov I-153 projects:

I-170 -- wooden fuselage, tapered wings, liquid-cooled M-106 engine, top speed 500 km/h (311 mph) anticipated; design work expected to be completed by 10/15/1939 but cancelled due to reallocation of staff to Mikoyan team.

I-190 -- planned successor to I-153; to be powered by M-88 engine; AV-2L variable pitch propeller; plywood skin for wings; cantilevered horizontal tail; larger tail; armament to be 2x20mm ShVAK or 4x7.62mm ShKAS and up to 200kg (442 lb) of bombs; mockup completed autumn 1938; first flight 12/30/1939 on skis; ultimately cancelled; 375 km/h @ SL; 488 km/h @ 5,000m; 450 km/h @ 7,050m.

I-195 -- project of 1940; strengthened version of I-190, enclosed but unpressurized cockpit; M-90 1500hp engine, ducted spinner; maximum speed 590 km/h (367 mph) estimated at 7,000m (23,000 ft); 510 km/h (316 mph) @SL; intended armament 2x20mm ShVAK and 2x12.7mm and up to 250kg (550 lb) of bombs; project only.

 

^ the I-195 project, if completed, would have been faster than the Fiat CR.42DB, and makes a strong case for a tier V biplane.

 

Source: Polikarpov's Biplane Fighters by Yefim Gordon and Keith Dexter (Midland 2002)

Edited by J311yfish, 16 September 2018 - 09:29 PM.

[Grantwhy]

Martymart1976, on 15 September 2018 - 03:50 AM, said:

It would be funny to have a Red Baron vs Snoopy mode on April Fools day, provided all the legalese could be settled...

 

or just Cats vs Dogs

 

Dogfight or Furball?  Why not both?

 

[J311yfish]

added a detailed comparison (data table) a few posts up

[jack_wdw]

J311yfish, on 16 September 2018 - 09:28 PM, said:

additional Polikarpov I-153 projects:

 

I-195 -- project of 1940; strengthened version of I-190, enclosed but unpressurized cockpit; M-90 1500hp engine, ducted spinner; maximum speed 590 km/h (367 mph) estimated at 7,000m (23,000 ft); 510 km/h (316 mph) @SL; intended armament 2x20mm ShVAK and 2x12.7mm and up to 250kg (550 lb) of bombs; project only.

 

^ the I-195 project, if completed, would have been faster than the Fiat CR.42DB, and makes a strong case for a tier V biplane.

 

Source: Polikarpov's Biplane Fighters by Yefim Gordon and Keith Dexter (Midland 2002)

What a beast would that have been

[SonicPariah]

J311yfish, on 16 September 2018 - 09:28 PM, said:

additional Polikarpov I-153 projects:

I-170 -- wooden fuselage, tapered wings, liquid-cooled M-106 engine, top speed 500 km/h (311 mph) anticipated; design work expected to be completed by 10/15/1939 but cancelled due to reallocation of staff to Mikoyan team.

I-190 -- planned successor to I-153; to be powered by M-88 engine; AV-2L variable pitch propeller; plywood skin for wings; cantilevered horizontal tail; larger tail; armament to be 2x20mm ShVAK or 4x7.62mm ShKAS and up to 200kg (442 lb) of bombs; mockup completed autumn 1938; first flight 12/30/1939 on skis; ultimately cancelled; 375 km/h @ SL; 488 km/h @ 5,000m; 450 km/h @ 7,050m.

I-195 -- project of 1940; strengthened version of I-190, enclosed but unpressurized cockpit; M-90 1500hp engine, ducted spinner; maximum speed 590 km/h (367 mph) estimated at 7,000m (23,000 ft); 510 km/h (316 mph) @SL; intended armament 2x20mm ShVAK and 2x12.7mm and up to 250kg (550 lb) of bombs; project only.

 

^ the I-195 project, if completed, would have been faster than the Fiat CR.42DB, and makes a strong case for a tier V biplane.

 

Source: Polikarpov's Biplane Fighters by Yefim Gordon and Keith Dexter (Midland 2002)

 

Now just imagine trying to balance those in game!

[J311yfish]

Arado 197 currently leading with 38% of votes! 

 

Gloster Gladiator a close 2nd despite not being in the game yet!

 

Some love for Italy, and zero love for France -- That's Amore

 

 

Edited by J311yfish, 23 September 2018 - 05:19 PM.

[J311yfish]

Avia B-534 (and Bk-534 variant) now in game as tier III, so it has been removed from the poll.