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Mig 15 Bis vs F86A

Mig 15bis vs F 86A

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Tironan #1 Posted 27 August 2018 - 12:00 AM

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This one bugs me for a few reasons. From all accounts by pilots on both sides these fighters were a very close match. So when I look at the cruise speeds and compare ugh! The actual speeds given were Mig 15 Bis 523 mph and the F 86A 540 Mph. The Mig had a climbing advantage and about 2,000 ft altitude advantage. However, the F 86A had a slight maneuver advantage. The cannon was better then again we don't have the M39's on the Saber which was introduced with the F 86F. The matchup needs to be addressed.

ArrowZ_ #2 Posted 27 August 2018 - 01:11 AM

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Get them to ultimate and see what happens :trollface:

Would also be nice to play the f-86 with 20mm cannons. 


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pyantoryng #3 Posted 27 August 2018 - 02:25 AM

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View PostArrowZ_, on 27 August 2018 - 08:11 AM, said:

Get them to ultimate and see what happens :trollface:

Would also be nice to play the f-86 with 20mm cannons. 

 

Will it be a better Pancake...or a worse Pancake...? (M39 is only tier 9 and not 10 BTW).

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ArrowZ_ #4 Posted 27 August 2018 - 02:31 AM

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View Postpyantoryng, on 27 August 2018 - 11:55 AM, said:

Will it be a better Pancake...or a worse Pancake...? (M39 is only tier 9 and not 10 BTW).

 

What most people don't know with precursor gun modules placed on higher tier aircraft is you get a bonus in Overheat rate (you can fire longer before overheating). If that's the case then the M39 will be all the better at tier 10 for an aircraft like the F-86. More firing time with a 20mm autocannon? Hell yes! That's if persha actually does the right thing... which we know all too well that doesn't happen often. If not at all :P


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hawkeyededic #5 Posted 27 August 2018 - 03:30 AM

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An issue this game has is that the F-86A is the first production model before any changes were made from lessons learned in Korea, The MiG-15 in game is the MiG-15bis, a later version with design changes and a better engine using lessons learned in Korea. So what we have is an early version of the F-86 fighting a later version of the MiG-15.

 

Some of the changes made to the F-86 where in fact quite significant, like a wider cord wing, flying tail and more powerful engine among other things, all of which is absent from the F-86A. The biggest advantage that the F-86 had was it's AN/APG 30 ranging radar coupled to it's gun sight. That dark black/brown nose looking thing on top of the intake is actually a cover for that little radar. This gave the Sabre pilots an edge over the MiGs which had a gyroscopic lead computing gun sight but without the benefit of a radar to determine the targets distance.



 

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Bluegoose02 #6 Posted 27 August 2018 - 04:12 AM

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But aren't all Russian planes better than the US's.

 



ArrowZ_ #7 Posted 27 August 2018 - 04:26 AM

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View PostBluegoose02, on 27 August 2018 - 01:42 PM, said:

But aren't all Russian planes better than the US's.

 

Depends on which you are referring to. Historical WWII or the game. If we're just discussing these 2 jets in the historical post-WWII era, then hawkeye pretty much just summed it up nicely. In-game alot of the problems comes from not having enough options to change modules for tier 10, save for ordnance on multiroles and heavies. But you don't get any option to change Engine, Airframe or Gun modules at Tier 10. Not sure what the reason was but you can guess something silly with these devs.

 

It wouldn't be too difficult to say.. add an F-86F airframe on the modules UI for the F-86A and branching off from that having the ability to equip the M39 20mm auto cannons. Ofcourse it would require more research aircraft exp. But you get the point. It's all up to this group in Kyiv to expand more modules content at Tier 10. Imo they should. It'll make Tier 10 game play that more interesting.


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pyantoryng #8 Posted 27 August 2018 - 12:39 PM

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View PostArrowZ_, on 27 August 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

 

Depends on which you are referring to. Historical WWII or the game. If we're just discussing these 2 jets in the historical post-WWII era, then hawkeye pretty much just summed it up nicely. In-game alot of the problems comes from not having enough options to change modules for tier 10, save for ordnance on multiroles and heavies. But you don't get any option to change Engine, Airframe or Gun modules at Tier 10. Not sure what the reason was but you can guess something silly with these devs.

 

It wouldn't be too difficult to say.. add an F-86F airframe on the modules UI for the F-86A and branching off from that having the ability to equip the M39 20mm auto cannons. Ofcourse it would require more research aircraft exp. But you get the point. It's all up to this group in Kyiv to expand more modules content at Tier 10. Imo they should. It'll make Tier 10 game play that more interesting.

 

With the specialist system who knows if it'll be introduced that way...it could mean grinding to specialist then grind for that spec again...

 

...M39 with overheat rate of 50cal.............



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DisgruntledSnowman901 #9 Posted 27 August 2018 - 01:14 PM

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View PostArrowZ_, on 27 August 2018 - 04:26 AM, said:

 

Depends on which you are referring to. Historical WWII or the game. If we're just discussing these 2 jets in the historical post-WWII era, then hawkeye pretty much just summed it up nicely. In-game alot of the problems comes from not having enough options to change modules for tier 10, save for ordnance on multiroles and heavies. But you don't get any option to change Engine, Airframe or Gun modules at Tier 10. Not sure what the reason was but you can guess something silly with these devs.

 

It wouldn't be too difficult to say.. add an F-86F airframe on the modules UI for the F-86A and branching off from that having the ability to equip the M39 20mm auto cannons. Ofcourse it would require more research aircraft exp. But you get the point. It's all up to this group in Kyiv to expand more modules content at Tier 10. Imo they should. It'll make Tier 10 game play that more interesting.

 

Ummmm... have you played any other wargaming title? Tier 10 tanks and warships also come fully upgraded, that's their thing, although like here there are sometimes weapons upgrades available.That being said, this does indicate that they in theory make a second weapons module available (Sabre cannons) without breaking the game code.

(also, +1 for a better sabre, at least the cannon because MGs only at high tier urgh...)

Edited by Xr901, 27 August 2018 - 01:19 PM.


ArrowZ_ #10 Posted 27 August 2018 - 01:31 PM

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View PostXr901, on 27 August 2018 - 10:44 PM, said:

 

Ummmm... have you played any other wargaming title? Tier 10 tanks and warships also come fully upgraded, that's their thing, although like here there are sometimes weapons upgrades available.That being said, this does indicate that they in theory make a second weapons module available (Sabre cannons) without breaking the game code.

(also, +1 for a better sabre, at least the cannon because MGs only at high tier urgh...)

 

Yep. Tried all 3. Only into the planes division cuz I like aviation more. And the whole "that's their thing" comment doesn't apply to WOWP here. While they follow a similar WG format. Devs in this title have time and time again shown unusual development choices that doesn't coincide with the other 2 titles. I guess I'm still in a way an optimist thinking that modules at tier 10 can still be expanded quite easily with just a few tweaks into the "game code". I find it hard to believe a change like this would risk other functionalities within the game that would break even more of the game's core upgradeability systems. Ofcourse the exception is the Specialist system where they stupidly lock "top tier" modules on specialist instead of giving you the option to freely choose what you want to run. Which is how the game should be.

 

Also I recall not too long ago they've updated some tier 10 ordnance module options a few months ago during 2.0 (too lazy to look up the exact patch update). But if they can tweak said modules in tier 10. What's to stop them from making more additions to the F-86A using the same development methods?

 

Anyway. I kind of "hijacked" this thread with my side argument... :trollface: (sorry jeff)

But it kind of is in a sense still on the same discussion as to how to make the F-86 more the same level as the mig-15bis. As of right now the Mig-15bis has all the advantages in altitude, climb rate, BnZ, and overall better speed capabilities than the F-86 on an elongated zooming passes. And that's not even with ultimate equips. The best way an F-86 can stand a chance in-game is to bait the mig-15bis player (assuming that's the case with this thread) into a low level turnfight, which rarely happens and only if that player mig-15 does not know his aircraft strengths, then that's the best chance to take advantage imo. But in a long range high altitude BnZ fight against a mig-15bis on a F-86A, the mig-15 will always win.


Edited by ArrowZ_, 27 August 2018 - 01:37 PM.

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DisgruntledSnowman901 #11 Posted 27 August 2018 - 01:53 PM

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View PostArrowZ_, on 27 August 2018 - 01:31 PM, said:

 

Yep. Tried all 3. Only into the planes division cuz I like aviation more. And the whole "that's their thing" comment doesn't apply to WOWP here. While they follow a similar WG format. Devs in this title have time and time again shown unusual development choices that doesn't coincide with the other 2 titles. I guess I'm still in a way an optimist thinking that modules at tier 10 can still be expanded quite easily with just a few tweaks into the "game code". I find it hard to believe a change like this would risk other functionalities within the game that would break even more of the game's core upgradeability systems. Ofcourse the exception is the Specialist system where they stupidly lock "top tier" modules on specialist instead of giving you the option to freely choose what you want to run. Which is how the game should be.

 

Also I recall not too long ago they've updated some tier 10 ordnance module options a few months ago during 2.0 (too lazy to look up the exact patch update). But if they can tweak said modules in tier 10. What's to stop them from making more additions to the F-86A using the same development methods?

 

Anyway. I kind of "hijacked" this thread with my side argument... :trollface: (sorry jeff)

But it kind of is in a sense still on the same discussion as to how to make the F-86 more the same level as the mig-15bis. As of right now the Mig-15bis has all the advantages in altitude, climb rate, BnZ, and overall better speed capabilities than the F-86 on an elongated zooming passes. And that's not even with ultimate equips. The best way an F-86 can stand a chance in-game is to bait the mig-15bis player (assuming that's the case with this thread) into a low level turnfight, which rarely happens and only if that player mig-15 does not know his aircraft strengths, then that's the best chance to take advantage imo. But in a long range high altitude BnZ fight against a mig-15bis on a F-86A, the mig-15 will always win.

 

Oh yeah, like I said, from what's evident from the outside it doesn't look like adding another weapons module would be problematic. It also wouldn't break the commonality with other WG titles, since weapons modules are the only ones really that can be swapped around on some T10s.

As to why it probably won't happen:
1.I'd say bug fixes and other general improvements will probably take priority over one plane at a tier where relatively few battles are fought right now. 
2. most of the russian lights and multiroles are kind of meh, so token Russian bias to meet WG Russian bias quota for an acceptable game. :P

jack_wdw #12 Posted 27 August 2018 - 01:53 PM

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I think they nerfed the Mig-15 ingame because the real Mig-15 had an armament, service ceiling, climb and turn advantage compared to the F-86.
The F-86 was a bit faster in level flight at low and medium altitudes but it's biggest advantage was the radar gunsight and G-suits for its pilots..

DisgruntledSnowman901 #13 Posted 27 August 2018 - 02:18 PM

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View Postjack_wdw, on 27 August 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

I think they nerfed the Mig-15 ingame because the real Mig-15 had an armament, service ceiling, climb and turn advantage compared to the F-86.
The F-86 was a bit faster in level flight at low and medium altitudes but it's biggest advantage was the radar gunsight and G-suits for its pilots..

 

Well, the real Mig-15bis had those advantages against the early F-86s in theory, although as discussed, in reality the armament advantage was theoretical rather than actual because of superior weapons targeting systems on the sabre and lack of airframe shake at high speed. Later model Sabres were also improved in response to what was learned about the mig-15 and would be comparable to the mig-15bis in game which is the improved mig-15.

The Canadair Sabre Mk.6 was perhaps the best Sabre to enter service (and I say that not just because I'm Canadian :P), as far as I remember had a climb, altitude, and speed advantage over the mig-15 and mig-15bis.

Tironan #14 Posted 27 August 2018 - 03:32 PM

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The F86F and the H models had all but eliminated any advantage that the Mig had. Both versions were coming in at 685 mph and the altitude delta was very small. The Sabre MK6 was the best of all of them by a slight margin since the CAC Sabre was there. Those two would be great premium planes! I believe that the top speed on them was 708... whew. In the game, the Mig just has too many advantages compared to the history of them where they were for all the touting very close to dead even. That should be reflected in the game.

Bluegoose02 #15 Posted 27 August 2018 - 04:45 PM

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Equal planes require skill to win with and I think they want you to spend to make these planes equal.

StoptheViolins #16 Posted 29 August 2018 - 05:09 PM

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Mig's big disadvantage is the mixed bag of cannon with various overheating rates, ranges, and velocity.  F-86 is just spray, spray, spray all day.

DisgruntledSnowman901 #17 Posted 29 August 2018 - 05:23 PM

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View PostTironan, on 27 August 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

The F86F and the H models had all but eliminated any advantage that the Mig had. Both versions were coming in at 685 mph and the altitude delta was very small. The Sabre MK6 was the best of all of them by a slight margin since the CAC Sabre was there. Those two would be great premium planes! I believe that the top speed on them was 708... whew. In the game, the Mig just has too many advantages compared to the history of them where they were for all the touting very close to dead even. That should be reflected in the game.

 

Yes please! I'd grind or buy a British tech tree Sabre (be it a british or Commonwealth variant), just because... well, I'm...

I mean it'd be nice to use my skilled British tech tree crew, but yeah... :P

As it is, yes I'd really like to see cannon. In the current state of the game, the amount of time you have to have on target with the MGs on American figthers at high tier is just painful.

jack_wdw #18 Posted 30 August 2018 - 03:16 PM

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View PostXr901, on 27 August 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

 

Well, the real Mig-15bis had those advantages against the early F-86s in theory, although as discussed, in reality the armament advantage was theoretical rather than actual because of superior weapons targeting systems on the sabre and lack of airframe shake at high speed. Later model Sabres were also improved in response to what was learned about the mig-15 and would be comparable to the mig-15bis in game which is the improved mig-15.

The Canadair Sabre Mk.6 was perhaps the best Sabre to enter service (and I say that not just because I'm Canadian :P), as far as I remember had a climb, altitude, and speed advantage over the mig-15 and mig-15bis.

 

I could be wrong, but i thought all Mig-15's that were flown during the korean conflict were of the type Mig15bis.
This was the type that was also exported to china as from 1950.
In terms of advantages , the radar aided gunsight and the g-suit on the F-86 was a major advantage.
Also pilot quality was by far better at the US side.
Sure you had the secret russian pilots who's skill was indisputable, but the quality of the Korean or chinese mig-pilots was well below those of their american counterparts.
There were stories of Korean mig-15 pilots who were already ejecting before their plane was even hit .

In terms of the best Sabre ever built, i want to vote in favor of the Australian CAC Sabre or the Avon Sabre.
It was based of the F-86F armed with two 30mm aden cannons, two aim-9's and a couple of 80mm rocket pods.
It used the Rolls Royce Avon (33.4 kN) as power source.

 

ArrowZ_ #19 Posted 31 August 2018 - 01:27 AM

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There was an Aussie sabre too?! Gosh it got around didn't it...

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jack_wdw #20 Posted 31 August 2018 - 10:03 AM

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View PostArrowZ_, on 31 August 2018 - 01:27 AM, said:

There was an Aussie sabre too?! Gosh it got around didn't it...

 

It was the best.

 

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