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Over Powered Premium Planes?

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comtedumas #81 Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:22 AM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 08 August 2018 - 10:42 PM, said:

I have three issues with the RB-17:

 

  1. The ability to basically one-pass a base,
  2. The long boost time with boost speed well above other tier 8 aircraft - especially at altitude which the RB can get better than most other aircraft. Sure, there are other aircraft that have a higher (marginally) boost speed, but the boost time allows the RB to outrun things over time and it has the HP pool to sustain that.
  3. The TG range being longer than many forward-firing weapons at tier 8.

 

 

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its a premium, they don't and cant change them.  they sold a product at a certain performance level at a certain price.  

kinda stuck with it as is.

 


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comtedumas #82 Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:25 AM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 09 August 2018 - 08:03 AM, said:

OK, I did read all of that, and agree, up to a point.  But I will offer a rebuttal.  Two, actually.

 

IL-40

 

IL-40P

 

In the hands of a skilled human, these planes can dominate battles.  In fact, if I see a human in one of these aircraft, I have to alter my plans to counter said human.  Should these aircraft also be nerfed because of their potential to dominate?  I pilot an RB-17 on occasion.  I am just starting out with it, and I don't have the low-level thing quite figured out, but I have figured out something important - even with all it's speed, even a mediocre pilot in a decently-fast aircraft can take it down.  Yes, I have seen some VERY good RB-17 pilots that are hard to touch while they are doing their bomber thing.  But at the same time, when I see an IL-40, or an IL-40P, I still have to EXACTLY the same thing I do when I see an RB-17.  I have to change my approach to a battle and try and counter the human player.

if its takes a skilled human to make them dominate battles, then it isn't the plane that is OP, its the player.  Think of Flamu in that other WG game that floats, he can dominate pretty much any battle in pretty much any ship. l  So should they all be nerfed because he is a superior player?  


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CorvusCorvax #83 Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:33 AM

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View Postcomtedumas, on 10 August 2018 - 03:25 AM, said:

if its takes a skilled human to make them dominate battles, then it isn't the plane that is OP, its the player.  Think of Flamu in that other WG game that floats, he can dominate pretty much any battle in pretty much any ship. l  So should they all be nerfed because he is a superior player?  

 

Yup.  Nerf all the things!

Izgoy0899 #84 Posted 10 August 2018 - 04:45 AM

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View Postcomtedumas, on 10 August 2018 - 10:22 AM, said:

its a premium, they don't and cant change them.  they sold a product at a certain performance level at a certain price.  

kinda stuck with it as is.

 

 

You mean like how they sold them before 2.0.5 as fully researched, then with 2.0.5 nerfed them to saying either grind for the specialist level or pay us more money. 

 

And Sonic or anyone at WG has yet, as far as I have seen, to address players complaining about this issue.  So far I see this topic brushed aside and ignored. 



ComradeZ #85 Posted 10 August 2018 - 07:29 AM

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View PostMadJackChurchil, on 10 August 2018 - 02:00 AM, said:

 

Perhaps one unrelated question. What is the approximate time frame for the next patch?

 

"When out internal testers have decided that it would be counter productive to deploy AND piss off everyone in the player base!"  AKA When it's Done <Tm>

Prenzlau #86 Posted 10 August 2018 - 02:52 PM

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View PostMadJackChurchil, on 09 August 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

 

Ok, you have a point. I should probably correct my whining about RB-17. Will be speaking as Me262 pilot (plane that should in theory be counter to RB-17). 90% of the time, RB-17 are not an issue. When played by bots, they are mince meat. When played by unsklilled people, the same thing, just need to actually fly the plane. When played by someone very skilled, in particular in 1v1 or 2v2 match (I think I had few matches against you and...someone... in bombers) I don't think there is much I can do to prevent you from winning. In RB-17 you can counter most of the ways I can attack you. The remaining way is usually too slow, so you cap before I do it. I shoot you down in the end, you win. And I am not convinced the situation would be different even if my skill was equal to yours.

By that I don't undermine your skills and I don't say that properly flying RB-17 is easy. Its most certainly not. But I feel like above certain bomber skill threshold, in 1v1 I don't stand a chance. If there were more people, it would be different. Currently its not.

 

    Thanks MadJack. Just some observations from last nights flying. I was flighted with Zigfreid in RB-17's. Most battles had three humans per side or less. 2 v 2 would be the average. The very best battle of the night, was 5 v 5 with Prequel and Carth Iron on the other side in pancakes. It was close, it was fun and it was a struggle between them and us, we won in the end, but it was a worthy battle that could have gone either way. This is how battles are supposed to be. Fun, undecided until the end, a struggle. I got shot down 3 times, and Zig twice. Why, more humans, more good humans, and less bots. If we could ever get back to sides with more than 5 or 6 humans, this game would still be very fun, maybe even super fun, because it is the human element that makes it fun, more than the structure for sure. 

    On the other hand, we had a battle against Sea of Stars in the J8M, and some other human (average) and we got rolled lost all 5 caps. Between Zig and I we captured 8 sectors, so we were doing what we normally do. SoS and that other human, 3 captured sectors between them, now SoS did have 20 kills, but it is clear that the heavy lifting (cap taking) was done by their bots versus ours. Now I'm not using bots as some excuse, but everyone knows that we need to get more humans into this game and get rid of these bots. If people want to keep this game, still have some optimism, still are hanging on to it, PLAY THE GAME! Please. Otherwise, it will always be just a handful of humans, and mostly bots, and the game will never get out of the mud. The waiting for WG to fix things, won't work. You much better off getting back into a situation were you can at least try and steer and direct. If not, then fade away into oblivion because there is not point in sticking around. Matches with a lot of humans are still very fun, even if a person does not like the game fully, it is still better to move forward and push from a position of strength. Opting out, you have nothing to show, no credit, your not playing, your just a ghost. (This rant is not directed at you MadJack)

    I think people out of frustration are targeting the RB-17, and if it were another plane, it could be the pancake or something else. More people playing and a lot of this "over powered" labeling goes away. Things only seem "over powered" because of excellent players competing with 80-90% bots, and the lack of human players. There are tons of complaints and issues from players in these forums. Some of the complaints would go away and the game would get better from a competitive standpoint, if more people would get off their *asses and play. What can players do... PLAY! As long as bots are the majority in battles, this game will never be what you want it to be. The bots unable WG to manipulate your battles, to their liking. Taking back the game, is playing and getting rid of the bots, and making battles fair again.

 

Prenzlau

 

PS: There was also a battle in which Captain_Underpants was on the other side in a RB-17. Good job bombing Captain, you held your end up. I said to Zig before the battle, "there is no way I'm losing to Underpants!" and Zig said, "that Depends on Underpants!" Ha! A funny joke. Bomber rivalry, alive and well. 


Edited by Prenzlau, 10 August 2018 - 03:38 PM.

 

 

 

 


Prenzlau #87 Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:03 PM

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View Postcomtedumas, on 09 August 2018 - 09:25 PM, said:

if its takes a skilled human to make them dominate battles, then it isn't the plane that is OP, its the player.  Think of Flamu in that other WG game that floats, he can dominate pretty much any battle in pretty much any ship. l  So should they all be nerfed because he is a superior player?  

 

A great deal of the "over powered" perception goes away of you have battles with many more human players. If you have 8 v 8 or 10 v 10 or more battles, then the humans would struggle skill-wise versus other humans and the planes, well they would just be the planes. The skill of the player would matter more, but the perception of "over power" and imbalance would be less.

 

Prenzlau


 

 

 

 


GeorgePatton #88 Posted 10 August 2018 - 03:47 PM

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View Postcomtedumas, on 09 August 2018 - 10:22 PM, said:

its a premium, they don't and cant change them.  they sold a product at a certain performance level at a certain price.  

kinda stuck with it as is.

 

 

Tell that to my J8M, my I-21, my KV-5, and my Type 59...

 

 

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Prenzlau #89 Posted 10 August 2018 - 04:55 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 10 August 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

 

Tell that to my J8M, my I-21, my KV-5, and my Type 59...

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

GeorgePatton might not need this game, he might not need these forums. The game and these forums need GeorgePatton. Sometimes we get stuck in "thankless" situations, but we rationalize and endure it from a giving perspective. It is Friday and I'm in a very polarized mood. Thanks for being here Glenn.

 

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comtedumas #90 Posted 10 August 2018 - 05:03 PM

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View Postmedoyehd, on 09 August 2018 - 11:45 PM, said:

 

You mean like how they sold them before 2.0.5 as fully researched, then with 2.0.5 nerfed them to saying either grind for the specialist level or pay us more money. 

 

And Sonic or anyone at WG has yet, as far as I have seen, to address players complaining about this issue.  So far I see this topic brushed aside and ignored. 

Here is the flaw in that line of thought, they just added a higher level of capability for the plane, they didn't take anything away.  They can add to, but they can't take away from what you paid for.  


Edited by comtedumas, 10 August 2018 - 05:05 PM.

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MadJackChurchil #91 Posted 12 August 2018 - 08:39 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 10 August 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

 

    Thanks MadJack. Just some observations from last nights flying. I was flighted with Zigfreid in RB-17's. Most battles had three humans per side or less. 2 v 2 would be the average. The very best battle of the night, was 5 v 5 with Prequel and Carth Iron on the other side in pancakes. It was close, it was fun and it was a struggle between them and us, we won in the end, but it was a worthy battle that could have gone either way. This is how battles are supposed to be. Fun, undecided until the end, a struggle. I got shot down 3 times, and Zig twice. Why, more humans, more good humans, and less bots. If we could ever get back to sides with more than 5 or 6 humans, this game would still be very fun, maybe even super fun, because it is the human element that makes it fun, more than the structure for sure. 

    On the other hand, we had a battle against Sea of Stars in the J8M, and some other human (average) and we got rolled lost all 5 caps. Between Zig and I we captured 8 sectors, so we were doing what we normally do. SoS and that other human, 3 captured sectors between them, now SoS did have 20 kills, but it is clear that the heavy lifting (cap taking) was done by their bots versus ours. Now I'm not using bots as some excuse, but everyone knows that we need to get more humans into this game and get rid of these bots. If people want to keep this game, still have some optimism, still are hanging on to it, PLAY THE GAME! Please. Otherwise, it will always be just a handful of humans, and mostly bots, and the game will never get out of the mud. The waiting for WG to fix things, won't work. You much better off getting back into a situation were you can at least try and steer and direct. If not, then fade away into oblivion because there is not point in sticking around. Matches with a lot of humans are still very fun, even if a person does not like the game fully, it is still better to move forward and push from a position of strength. Opting out, you have nothing to show, no credit, your not playing, your just a ghost. (This rant is not directed at you MadJack)

    I think people out of frustration are targeting the RB-17, and if it were another plane, it could be the pancake or something else. More people playing and a lot of this "over powered" labeling goes away. Things only seem "over powered" because of excellent players competing with 80-90% bots, and the lack of human players. There are tons of complaints and issues from players in these forums. Some of the complaints would go away and the game would get better from a competitive standpoint, if more people would get off their *asses and play. What can players do... PLAY! As long as bots are the majority in battles, this game will never be what you want it to be. The bots unable WG to manipulate your battles, to their liking. Taking back the game, is playing and getting rid of the bots, and making battles fair again.

 

Prenzlau

 

PS: There was also a battle in which Captain_Underpants was on the other side in a RB-17. Good job bombing Captain, you held your end up. I said to Zig before the battle, "there is no way I'm losing to Underpants!" and Zig said, "that Depends on Underpants!" Ha! A funny joke. Bomber rivalry, alive and well. 

 

Hold on, hold on, I generally agree with you, but RB-17 is still a bit too strong when played well, ok? :) Although I currently keep shoveling all my spare parts to upgrading my 262, so we will see if it gets better and I can start having pancakes for dinner.

But yeah, hope Wargaming is gonna make some magic to get more people - it would change the whole dynamic. What they said in the thread, they are planning some changes in the right direction. Lets hope it works.


Edited by MadJackChurchil, 12 August 2018 - 08:43 PM.


trikke #92 Posted 15 August 2018 - 12:32 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 10 August 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

GeorgePatton might not need this game, he might not need these forums. The game and these forums need GeorgePatton.

Sometimes we get stuck in "thankless" situations, but we rationalize and endure it from a giving perspective.

It is Friday and I'm in a very polarized mood. Thanks for being here Glenn.

 

exactly this
Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore

MagusGerhardt #93 Posted 17 August 2018 - 01:46 AM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 10 August 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

 

GeorgePatton might not need this game, he might not need these forums. The game and these forums need GeorgePatton. Sometimes we get stuck in "thankless" situations, but we rationalize and endure it from a giving perspective. It is Friday and I'm in a very polarized mood. Thanks for being here Glenn.

 

Prenzlau

 

I was anxious when GP stated he was gonna try it out after viewing my initial 2.0.5 vids.  We go a ways back and I was unsure of letting my friend wander into these bloodied skies.  I'm glad to see him back; I have really missed our old "Good Cop - Caustically Sarcastic Pilot" act.

 

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poppavein #94 Posted 18 August 2018 - 03:51 PM

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This thread needs a new title. I came here to read about OP premium planes, and it appears only the RB-17 qualifies. 

trikke #95 Posted 20 August 2018 - 03:10 AM

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the german spitfire has always seemed OP to me, so give it a try

 

it's a spitfire, so...  of course it is


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Animal_of_Pryale #96 Posted 20 August 2018 - 03:58 AM

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View Postpoppavein, on 18 August 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

This thread needs a new title. I came here to read about OP premium planes, and it appears only the RB-17 qualifies.

 

And it really isn't OP, just some people can't deal with it in the planes they prefer to fly.  Yes, all those GAA pilots that have been getting away with the exploit that the bots won't attack them when they fly low, for far too long.  If anything needs to be fixed, that does.

 

   



Xr901 #97 Posted 20 August 2018 - 04:30 AM

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View PostAnimal_of_Pryale, on 20 August 2018 - 03:58 AM, said:

 

And it really isn't OP, just some people can't deal with it in the planes they prefer to fly.  Yes, all those GAA pilots that have been getting away with the exploit that the bots won't attack them when they fly low, for far too long.  If anything needs to be fixed, that does.

 

   

 

I was flying in a flight with someone the other day who was flying the RB-17. I was on the fence before, I knew it was powerful but watching it in action, it is OP as hell in the current state of things once its been fully pimped out with good equipment. The ease with which it can flip caps and remain relatively invulnerable to threats in skilled hands is just incredible. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if the game were more populated and you could have humans countering it and others flipping caps for your team, but it isn't. It can be countered but doing so means that while the human you have been matched against is flipping caps and winning while you work to counter them, you're loosing because your relying on your bots that couldn't find their own a** with the help of a map and a compass to flip caps for your team.

That being said, do I hate the people who fly them? no... Do I own one? yes... Do I fly it? no, I like light fighters, but I will work on getting good in bombers some day, it is very powerful.

Edited by Xr901, 20 August 2018 - 04:35 AM.


ComradeZ #98 Posted 20 August 2018 - 07:05 AM

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I flew with/against an RB pilot. We basically raced around, chasing each other's tails. Eventually it turned into a one on one 20mm front gun battle. Good times!

 

Someone mentioned not seeing XP-58s with RB-17s around. I sorta believe that as I rarely if ever get ran up on by heavy premiums.



Prenzlau #99 Posted 20 August 2018 - 03:47 PM

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View PostXr901, on 19 August 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

 

I was flying in a flight with someone the other day who was flying the RB-17. I was on the fence before, I knew it was powerful but watching it in action, it is OP as hell in the current state of things once its been fully pimped out with good equipment. The ease with which it can flip caps and remain relatively invulnerable to threats in skilled hands is just incredible. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if the game were more populated and you could have humans countering it and others flipping caps for your team, but it isn't. It can be countered but doing so means that while the human you have been matched against is flipping caps and winning while you work to counter them, you're loosing because your relying on your bots that couldn't find their own a** with the help of a map and a compass to flip caps for your team.

That being said, do I hate the people who fly them? no... Do I own one? yes... Do I fly it? no, I like light fighters, but I will work on getting good in bombers some day, it is very powerful.

 

    There are only a handful of players who have mastered the RB-17 to the point were they can consistently produce devastating results via low flying tactics. This effect is even more magnified when battles are 80-90% bots. You are quite right in your observation that battles with only a few humans per side often creates imbalance and when you throw in the game's chaotic attempts to rig bots, it can be like a slot machine. 

    If flying the RB-17 or any other bomber for that matter was a piece of cake, and getting the mega results, then everyone would be doing it and the battles would be filled with human bombers. This is not the case and the vast majority of human bombers are mediocre or worse. I've flown thousands of battles, and I know who the good ones are and notice the level of competence in whom ever I come across. 

    As a whole, and I have said this many times, it is not really fair to evaluate planes as "over powered" when the environment is mostly bots and at times the human element is very minimum. In these environments, any greatly skilled human will stand out, in any type of plane. If there were regular battles containing 12-15 humans per side, then it would become very clear that the planes are not as "over powered" as they appear to be. The fact that we do not have regular battles containing majorities of human players is the fault of WG for not producing, promoting, managing, and designing a product that is appealing to large amounts of human players. 

    In all fairness to the RB-17, I regularly fly the Do 217M, A-26B, Ju 88A, Do 17 Z, and Blenheim IV and get great results and many victories. Eventually, people have to come to the logical path that leads to certain players simply being great in certain planes. Time and time again we look at the plane, or the game for explanations, and don't take into account the full impact of player skill. 

    Thanks for your insight and observations.

 

Prenzlau

    


 

 

 

 


SpiritFoxMY #100 Posted 20 August 2018 - 03:55 PM

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Welp, better get used to RB-17-style flying because if the top speeds in the preview of the Russian bomber line are anything to judge by, that's going to be the Russian thing - high speed bombers. 530kph in a Peshka at tier 5.

 

To put that in perspective, the Zero has a max boosted speed of 525kph. Guess who will have the longer boost.


***

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For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end






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