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Shizzywiznut #21 Posted 08 August 2018 - 02:45 AM

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I have beat Prenzlau quite a few times in matches with him flying that beast, even shot him down in my IL-20 stopping a cap, it is not the plane, when I see certain players I change my tactics according to how the game is being played, head hunting, drag them to AA or to the rest of my team, flying a zero and they fly high with heavy fighters I go low and cap by shooting low flyers, turn fighter against a plane that has speed, out run them and turn around when I am far enough to make a safe turn, bots chasing you all over the map, keep them from the caps by forming a conga line....

Prenzlau #22 Posted 08 August 2018 - 02:46 AM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 07 August 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

A simple solution to low alt RBs would be to reinstate alt bands.

For some reason the devs are against this. :sceptic:

Too much like the old game maybe...

 

A person who does not play the game, does not fly the planes but seems to know everything. Your amazing.

 

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Prenzlau #23 Posted 08 August 2018 - 03:11 AM

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View PostShizzywiznut, on 07 August 2018 - 08:45 PM, said:

I have beat Prenzlau quite a few times in matches with him flying that beast, even shot him down in my IL-20 stopping a cap, it is not the plane, when I see certain players I change my tactics according to how the game is being played, head hunting, drag them to AA or to the rest of my team, flying a zero and they fly high with heavy fighters I go low and cap by shooting low flyers, turn fighter against a plane that has speed, out run them and turn around when I am far enough to make a safe turn, bots chasing you all over the map, keep them from the caps by forming a conga line....

 

That's right! Every time I fly it is a challenge and sometimes the other team makes things difficult, and I have noticed that some players like Shizzy adjust their tactics and attack my RB-17 with force and intelligence. The idea that would sacrifice the battle by not taking caps is nonsense. Caps flip all the time, those crazy bots you know. There is a chess game element to this game, and that is the learning process. Sometimes I kill my attackers, sometimes they kill me, but that is the fun of it. There are many players who are not intimidated by the RB-17 or who is flying it, and they refuse to go quietly into the night and accept defeat, so they fight back and effectively hunt the RB-17. 

 

Thanks Shizzy for some great battles and I look forward to the next one!

 

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f16falcona46 #24 Posted 08 August 2018 - 03:50 AM

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Let's explain this through skill curves:

Here's a hypothetical balanced plane:

Here's a plane like the XF4F-3

And here's the RB-17:

You're looking at players on the left of the RB-17's skill curve and comparing them to players on the right of the "balanced plane" skill curve. Sure, a horrifically bad RB player will probably lose to a good "balanced plane" player, but even a half-stupid bomber player (e.g., me) will win versus a decent player in other aircraft. This discounts Big Boost Bug--the cap power and long boost of the RB alone can win games. And the skill curve for the RB is just as steep as for balanced planes: a strong player is even stronger than the rest of his same tier peers if he is flying an RB. Part of a team game like Warplanes is that no one can get 100% winrate. Someone who knows the exact route to one-pass any point, and keeps his speed up with Big Boost Bug and boost can come darned close, and that's gamebreaking. You must make no errors and counter the RB near perfectly if you want to have even a chance of winning.

 

Likewise, a very good XF4F-3 player (I'd like to call myself one) can beat an average player in a balanced plane. That does not mean the XF4F-3 is OP.

View PostMagusGerhardt, on 07 August 2018 - 09:57 PM, said:

Not everyone flying the RB-17 is exploiting current game flaws to produce an OP package.

 

The RB-17, used as originally intended, is quite balanced.  Barnstorming ahistorically and abusing the broken engine boost consumable is broken.

 

Removal or correction of the consumable and a nice hefty nerf to her speed and handling at extremely low altitudes will correct the RB-17s issues nicely.

 

As originally intended by WG. Unfortunately low alt bombing isn't a bug, and I don't think WG will ever fix it (we were supposed to have a balancing pass in January 2018...it never happened). And historically medium bombers did do low level attacks, so there was precedent--but they usually had fighter cover, and they weren't that fast!

ComradeZ #25 Posted 08 August 2018 - 03:53 AM

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This low level hoo-haa would not be so much of an issue if it were not for the fact that WG made bombardiers walleyed.

 

EDIT: I've been forced to low level bomb for the fact that flak seems to be radar controlled now. High alt bombing is not nearly effective as it was in the past. I use my RB-17 for one purpose: Making credits.  Other than that, I see it as a two trick pony.


Edited by ComradeZ, 08 August 2018 - 03:55 AM.


Bobby_Tables #26 Posted 08 August 2018 - 04:18 AM

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I dunno if I care, in fact, I don't think I do: 

 

There are always going to be meta-planes and those who learn and take the time to find the right tactics will be able to exploit the game to their advantage.  Is that wrong?  No.

 

Are there people who will team up in these meta-planes to double the advantage?  Yes.  Is that wrong?  No.  

 

What I have noticed is that the venom and viciousness of those who are victims to meta-playing teams has dropped off dramatically.  I recall the anger and frustration exposed on a daily basis by some meta-flying players in 1.X which was much more hyped back then than it is now.  I mean my gosh oh golly jeepers if you went back to the hype about the furry mammal with ss at the end of his name and the Ohio kid, you would have thought it was Armageddon in a game.  [Edit:  If I recall correctly, the increased angst was a direct result of the introduction of bots and how they could be exploited.  So if you wanna boil it all down to the common denominator, bots are the thing that killed this game.  When it was all humans, people like HOH-Wolfblitz and his teammate could be countered if the HUMANS coordinated.  Now, with bots, it is much more difficult to counter a well coordinated team].   

 

Again, my opinion but the reason the anger and frustration is not as high nowadays is because people don't care as much.  Back then, this game was much more competitive and then with the initial introduction of bots, people cared about losses to meta-flying players.  Now that bots are the norm, the anger has dissipated because of the RNG bot-filled battles.  To quote Shania Twain, when people run across the meta-plane players, for the most part they say "That don't impress me much".  

 

As I continue to say, I still play the game, at this point mostly out of habit, but if I run across a meta-flying group of players who clean up the battle I think, "Gee, that was neat" And then I move onto the next one.


Edited by Bobby_Tables, 08 August 2018 - 04:27 AM.


SpiritFoxMY #27 Posted 08 August 2018 - 04:27 AM

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View PostShizzywiznut, on 08 August 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

I have beat Prenzlau quite a few times in matches with him flying that beast, even shot him down in my IL-20 stopping a cap, it is not the plane, when I see certain players I change my tactics according to how the game is being played, head hunting, drag them to AA or to the rest of my team, flying a zero and they fly high with heavy fighters I go low and cap by shooting low flyers, turn fighter against a plane that has speed, out run them and turn around when I am far enough to make a safe turn, bots chasing you all over the map, keep them from the caps by forming a conga line....

 

Honestly, it's not like we don't do this. Against any other plane (yes, even Spitfires and Pancakes) its "who is playing". I mean, do you think we're all windowlicking morons who don't know what to do and how to do it?

 

RB-17s are the only plane that forces me to play differently. Basically as soon as I see an RB in battle, my first thought is "how high is he flying?". If he goes to altitude, then its a sane game. If I see him hedge hopping, I know it's going to be a struggle that gas me foaming at the mouth. 

 

There are conditions where you can beat them. CC maps are the most obvious as they can be camped and RBs have little recourse to stop bomber flights. I've dealt with double RBs, single RB hedge hoppers and the lot.

 

But it isn't fun. And it's often a losing game regardless unless your bots also know what they're doing. I've been kicked by a 48% WR player (the same one I mentioned above) more times than I can count when he's in his RB. 

 

In summary - beating a skilled RB player requires superior map awareness, strategy and more than a bit if luck. If your bots are switched on and your GAAs don't suck, then a bit of map strategy will win. But... well... bots. 

 

But what do I know? I'm the whiny idiot 40%-er who doesn't know how to fly. 

 

Side note: more R4M practice tonight


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Animal_of_Pryale #28 Posted 08 August 2018 - 06:52 AM

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I've never owned or flown an RB-17.  But from the forum, I've learned the OP AA has now forced them down to treetop level.  I understand this as I'm afraid to fly above the level where the flak starts whatever plane I'm in.


 

There DO EXIST planes that can easily match both altitude and speed with sufficient firepower to take them down.


 

Just because your preferred plane can't deal with them doesn't make them OP.


 

I'm sure if you carefully study the Tech Tree, you will find a plane that will adequately do the job, if that's what you want to do.


 

Does that make the planes that can easily take down the RB-17s overpowered?  No.  OP is in the eyes of the beholder.


 

Rock, Paper, Scissors.


 

  

 

 


Edited by Animal_of_Pryale, 08 August 2018 - 06:54 AM.


f16falcona46 #29 Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:02 AM

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View PostBobby_Tables, on 08 August 2018 - 04:18 AM, said:

I dunno if I care, in fact, I don't think I do: 

 

There are always going to be meta-planes and those who learn and take the time to find the right tactics will be able to exploit the game to their advantage.  Is that wrong?  No.

 

Are there people who will team up in these meta-planes to double the advantage?  Yes.  Is that wrong?  No.  

It's wrong--but not on the players. It's on WG for (1) allowing such a broken plane to exist, and (2) introducing the boost bug and refusing to fix it.



f16falcona46 #30 Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:07 AM

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View PostAnimal_of_Pryale, on 08 August 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

I've never owned or flown an RB-17.  But from the forum, I've learned the OP AA has now forced them down to treetop level.  I understand this as I'm afraid to fly above the level where the flak starts whatever plane I'm in.


 

There DO EXIST planes that can easily match both altitude and speed with sufficient firepower to take them down.


 

Just because your preferred plane can't deal with them doesn't make them OP.


 

I'm sure if you carefully study the Tech Tree, you will find a plane that will adequately do the job, if that's what you want to do.


 

Does that make the planes that can easily take down the RB-17s overpowered?  No.  OP is in the eyes of the beholder.


 

Rock, Paper, Scissors. 

 

Pretty much the only plane that can sustain the RB's speed is another RB, boost bug or not. There is no multirole fighter that can (I've played every tier 8 tech tree multirole), definitely no GA can, no turnfighter LF can, P-51H can't (I don't have the Me 209 so I can't tell you if it can or can't), the Pancake can't, and I don't own the other two tech tree heavies.

 

The fact that the RB has gamebreaking speed and can cap any point in one pass is what makes it OP. Sure, you can catch it in a non-preferred plane (J8M being an example, but it also costs money and has no bombs), but the RB is also a fast plane and has quick reloading bombs.

 

Reito has played literally every tech tree plane in the game, pretty sure he'd be the first to find a reliable counter to RB spam.



Prenzlau #31 Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:10 AM

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View Postf16falcona46, on 07 August 2018 - 09:50 PM, said:

 

You're looking at players on the left of the RB-17's skill curve and comparing them to players on the right of the "balanced plane" skill curve. Sure, a horrifically bad RB player will probably lose to a good "balanced plane" player, but even a half-stupid bomber player (e.g., me) will win versus a decent player in other aircraft. This discounts Big Boost Bug--the cap power and long boost of the RB alone can win games. And the skill curve for the RB is just as steep as for balanced planes: a strong player is even stronger than the rest of his same tier peers if he is flying an RB. Part of a team game like Warplanes is that no one can get 100% winrate. Someone who knows the exact route to one-pass any point, and keeps his speed up with Big Boost Bug and boost can come darned close, and that's gamebreaking. You must make no errors and counter the RB near perfectly if you want to have even a chance of winning.

 

Likewise, a very good XF4F-3 player (I'd like to call myself one) can beat an average player in a balanced plane. That does not mean the XF4F-3 is OP.

 

As originally intended by WG. Unfortunately low alt bombing isn't a bug, and I don't think WG will ever fix it (we were supposed to have a balancing pass in January 2018...it never happened). And historically medium bombers did do low level attacks, so there was precedent--but they usually had fighter cover, and they weren't that fast!

 

I'm sorry, but I read your word soup (above) three times and I'm still struggling to understand the "skip-logic" that is similar to watching a ping-pong ball bounce inside of a square chamber?!? You just pulling this crap out of the ether as if your half drunk and just making something up just to post something? I believe the correct answer is "No", and "no" and "huh", and "what?"....

 

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f16falcona46 #32 Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:17 AM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 08 August 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

 

I'm sorry, but I read your word soup (above) three times and I'm still struggling to understand the "skip-logic" that is similar to watching a ping-pong ball bounce inside of a square chamber?!? You just pulling this crap out of the ether as if your half drunk and just making something up just to post something? I believe the correct answer is "No", and "no" and "huh", and "what?"....

 

Prenzlau

Apparently, you didn't even try to read. A NTL; DR just for you, P <3:

"Your logic is bad because you didn't compare players of the same skill. Here are some graphs that graphically illustrate why."



EpicYarn #33 Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:27 AM

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RB-17 is W0WP's Object 268 v4 from WoT before nerfs.

 

Potatoes will still suck in it, Good players will excel better than average in it, and Expert players will crush the competition (and tell other's it isn't op, it's the other player's that suck).

 

Change my mind.



Prenzlau #34 Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:29 AM

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View PostBobby_Tables, on 07 August 2018 - 10:18 PM, said:

I dunno if I care, in fact, I don't think I do: 

 

You have a funny way of showing you don't care, how about some more well placed videos? 

 

There are always going to be meta-planes and those who learn and take the time to find the right tactics will be able to exploit the game to their advantage.  Is that wrong?  No.

 

Reminds me of a clan whose abbreviated name starts with an H and ends with an R, who have exploited every aspect of this game to their advantage until the well started to dry up and most of them quit. 

 

Are there people who will team up in these meta-planes to double the advantage?  Yes.  Is that wrong?  No. 

 

Sure, it is the only way to maintain a 75%-83% win rate.  

 

What I have noticed is that the venom and viciousness of those who are victims to meta-playing teams has dropped off dramatically.  I recall the anger and frustration exposed on a daily basis by some meta-flying players in 1.X which was much more hyped back then than it is now.  I mean my gosh oh golly jeepers if you went back to the hype about the furry mammal with ss at the end of his name and the Ohio kid, you would have thought it was Armageddon in a game.  [Edit:  If I recall correctly, the increased angst was a direct result of the introduction of bots and how they could be exploited.  So if you wanna boil it all down to the common denominator, bots are the thing that killed this game.  When it was all humans, people like HOH-Wolfblitz and his teammate could be countered if the HUMANS coordinated.  Now, with bots, it is much more difficult to counter a well coordinated team].   

 

I agree.

 

Again, my opinion but the reason the anger and frustration is not as high nowadays is because people don't care as much.  Back then, this game was much more competitive and then with the initial introduction of bots, people cared about losses to meta-flying players.  Now that bots are the norm, the anger has dissipated because of the RNG bot-filled battles.  To quote Shania Twain, when people run across the meta-plane players, for the most part they say "That don't impress me much".  

 

Your right. People don't care in general and there certainly is not any mass fear or panic in the air either. A few people squawk because they don't know what they are doing and maybe have some in game frustration. 

 

As I continue to say, I still play the game, at this point mostly out of habit, but if I run across a meta-flying group of players who clean up the battle I think, "Gee, that was neat" And then I move onto the next one.

 

Best attitude I've read, calm, cool and collected. A well grounded individual who has a level perspective. (+1)

 

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JuanMendoza #35 Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:34 AM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 08 August 2018 - 02:44 AM, said:

 

You bet there is! Skilled play is the dominate factor, not so much the plane. You don't have to look any further than the win rates of any player to know how much they influence battles. 

 

Prenzlau

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then why don't  see you flying an I-220 or J7W1?

 

Because you know they are underpowered.

 

Just as you KNOW the RB is OP.

 

Disingenuity does not justify seal-clubbing.



Animal_of_Pryale #36 Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:37 AM

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Nonsense.  Just in Tier VIII which is the tier of the RB-17.

RB-17

Cruise speed: 400

Boost speed: 800


 

P. 1056

Cruise speed: 580

Boost speed: 820

2 X 40mm

4 X 20mm


 

Me 109 TL

Cruise speed: 485

Boost speed: 825

2 X 30mm

2X 20mm


 

XP 58

Cruise speed: 600

Boost speed: 780

4 X 37 mm

 


 I-250

Cruise speed: 460

Boost speed: 790

2 X 23 mm

1 X 37 mm


 

Any of these planes can make quick work of an RB-17. And that's just tier VIII.


 

Rock thinks Paper is OP, Paper thinks Scissors is OP, Scissors think Rock is OP.


 


 


 


 


 


 


Edited by Animal_of_Pryale, 08 August 2018 - 08:06 AM.


Prenzlau #37 Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:50 AM

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View Postf16falcona46, on 08 August 2018 - 01:07 AM, said:

 

Pretty much the only plane that can sustain the RB's speed is another RB, boost bug or not. There is no multirole fighter that can (I've played every tier 8 tech tree multirole), definitely no GA can, no turnfighter LF can, P-51H can't (I don't have the Me 209 so I can't tell you if it can or can't), the Pancake can't, and I don't own the other two tech tree heavies.

 

The fact that the RB has gamebreaking speed and can cap any point in one pass is what makes it OP. Sure, you can catch it in a non-preferred plane (J8M being an example, but it also costs money and has no bombs), but the RB is also a fast plane and has quick reloading bombs.

 

Reito has played literally every tech tree plane in the game, pretty sure he'd be the first to find a reliable counter to RB spam.

 

I'm very fascinated with the perspectives of so many who don't regularly fly the RB and don't understand what life is like in the cockpit. This idea that it is some joyride were no one can shoot you and you fly around, flat easy maps at super speed all the time, while sitting back on auto pilot drinking lemonade as your bombs always hit and you win effortlessly. 

No. It is not easy. RB's are shot down all the time, battles are lost all the time, and it is a struggle. Anyone who is any good at low level bombing and flying the RB has earned any advantage they have, just like any other plane. As Little Bobby Tables pointed out, when you have battles with 70-80% bots, some planes seem more effective because the bots are just bad tactically. In battles where there are far more humans, I can tell you, it is no free ride flying the RB and winning. 

A lack of perspective and flawed logic gets tiring, just because a few people think something is a certain way, but don't really know and just present an appearance but refuse to include battles dominated by mostly bots, human players who lack effective tactics and experience, and the deeply flawed idea that the RB is "uncounterable", when I know from experience, that is not true at all. Yet highly skilled players in other planes have great battles all the time and people naturally recognize that the player was the reason, not the plane. 

 

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Prenzlau #38 Posted 08 August 2018 - 08:03 AM

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View PostJuanMendoza, on 08 August 2018 - 01:34 AM, said:

 

 

Then why don't  see you flying an I-220 or J7W1?

 

Because you know they are underpowered.

 

Just as you KNOW the RB is OP.

 

Disingenuity does not justify seal-clubbing.

 

First of all Juan your a "deer in the head lights" and all too often in battle I saw you completely baffled by what was going on around you, and then out of frustration you lash out. In the past three weekends, for the event, anyone who wanted even a chance to compete to be in the top 20, had to fly their best planes to gain as many personal points as they could, win or lose, it did not matter. I fly bombers, I'm good at flying bombers, so naturally I flew the best bomber I had, as others have done to compete. The RB is not over powered. It seems that way because I'm excellent at flying it, bots don't defend well and often fly around the map like dogs off the leash, and humans like you that have no real idea as to how to attack them and win. So yes, some battles might seem that way. On the other hand given my skill with the RB, if it is as over powered as some people think it is, then I should have been near undefeated, and that was certainly not the case what so ever. 

Again, it is partly the state of the game, the skill of the human player, and other situational factors. You cannot "seal club" in a tier 8 bomber, unless your implying at tier 8 your so helpless that you cannot defend yourself, in that case maybe you should pick a a better tier to play?

 

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Prenzlau #39 Posted 08 August 2018 - 08:17 AM

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View PostAnimal_of_Pryale, on 08 August 2018 - 01:37 AM, said:

 

Nonsense.  Just in Tier VIII which is the tier of the RB-17.

RB-17

Cruise speed: 400

Boost speed: 800


 

P. 1056

Cruise speed: 580

Boost speed: 820

2 X 40mm

4 X 20mm


 

Me 109 TL

Cruise speed: 485

Boost speed: 825

2 X 30mm

2X 20mm


 

XP 58

Cruise speed: 600

Boost speed: 780

4 X 37 mm


 I-250

cruise speed: 460

Boost speed: 790

2 X 23 mm

1 X 37 mm


 

Any of these planes can make quick work of an RB-17. And that's just tier VIII.


 

Rock thinks Paper is OP, Paper thinks Scissors is OP, Scissors think Rock is OP.


 


 


 


 


 


 

 

That's right damn it all! You did not even mention the pancake and Me 262. So many tier 8 planes can be very effective against the RB-17, if the player knows how to use them. I keep saying it, over and over. At any tier, a bomber cannot match the firepower of a fighter, multi-role or heavy. Most of the time, if these planes get close enough, the bomber gets either blown away or badly mauled. The speed of the RB is the only thing that makes it playable and able to survive against planes that massively out gun it. I've been dogged and hunted by human players in these planes and it has been a joke trying to just survive against a determined and skilled player in a fighter that wants to get after me, but somehow I'm supposed to flip caps and determine the battle when I'm running across the map for my life trying to dodge a lethal hail of fire and hoping that somehow my tail does not get taken out, which it does all the time, and somehow my tail gunner doesn't get taken out, which again, it does all the time. Then I'm nothing but a big fat target with no more boost and no defense. 

 

Prenzlau


Edited by Prenzlau, 08 August 2018 - 08:19 AM.

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ComradeZ #40 Posted 08 August 2018 - 08:58 AM

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    04-13-2011

Goddamn, I'm going to hate myself..but I have to agree with Prenz.  In my quest for money, I've spent a lot of time in that RB and some of what what he said is (vomits into mouth) correct.

 

RB-17 Dirt Riders are -not- hard to deal with once figured out.  Once you got their map 'rotation' down, I've mauled a great many high RBs and a few low ones. Me 209 with boost and gold ammo for the high alt, specialized Pancake or a Starfire for the low levels.  It's finding enemy low level bombers that are a pain in the [edited]. You need wingmate to spot them.  

 

 


Edited by ComradeZ, 08 August 2018 - 09:00 AM.






Also tagged with OP, Unfair, Premium, Whiners

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