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Over Powered Premium Planes?

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Prenzlau #1 Posted 07 August 2018 - 03:09 PM

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    There have been a few people that have been vocal lately concerning what they describe as "overpowered premium planes". Since I fly the RB-17, and have over the past few weekends, flown that particular plane a lot, I'm the target of some criticism and frustration. I think we need to look at this with more clarity and insight.

    Here is the logic then. If indeed a premium plane is "over powered" that would imply that any pilot/player that uses it would seem more potent or effective. I do not believe this is the case. The planes are what they are, in the hands of an average pilot/player, you will get average results. The reason some planes, and not all are premium, seem "over powered" is the skill and experience of the pilot/player that is using them. I've seen first hand some excellent pilot/players that have achieved Aces (20 kills or more) in planes that are considered difficult or below average. Conversely, I have seen average or below average pilot/players struggle with labeled OP planes. An average pilot/player flying any plane will yield average results, and excellent pilot/player flying any plane will yield excellent results. It is that simple. 

    On a personal level, if I paid for a certain plane, like the RB-17, I'm damn well going to fly it. I'm also a bomber pilot who flies lots of bombers, so again, not surprising I fly the RB-17. I fly the RB-17 low and often into swarms of bots and human players over caps, I take the risks, I'm exposed to all sorts of hazards, which include AA, defense planes, bots and humans, and terrain like mountains. It is not that easy, it might look easy and over powering, but I've practiced and put in the time and battles to become a great RB-17 pilot. Why should I feel bad for that? I get shot down, all the time, because again, I'm taking the risk and often exposed to multiple attacking planes. 

    The low level bombing tactics and strategy is not strictly for the RB-17. I also fly the Do 217 M, the A-26B and even the Ju 88A, and believe me the Ju 88A takes a lot of skill, luck and guts to fly low and be effective. I strictly fly the Do 17 z and Blenheim IV at high altitude. Flying bombers is different from other types of planes, obviously, but if your someone who has not had much exposure and experience with bombers, please be respectful and considerate when criticizing the people who do. 

    If a plane is premium it should have it's own unique attributes and it should have advantages, after all that is the point, you pay for it (in theory), I know some have been rewards and such. I know there has been a great deal of negativity towards the specialist system of using parts to upgrade your planes. While I think it needs some tweaking, and a few changes, the benefits through enhancements do outweigh any negatives, and then the player needs to use those enhancements to their advantage. An upgraded premium plane (or any plane for that matter), with a high skill level pilot and a highly skilled player flying it, will seem over powered. 

    Lastly, there are match making situations where it might not matter, as unfair as that sounds. There are lots of reasons why wins and loses occur, and the type of planes flying, the bots, the human players, etc, all play a part, and of course the flawed system of match making and the maps. Sometimes you just don't know ahead of time what you are going to get, or get into, but a person has to take care of their "house" first before attacking others for what they do. 

Prenzlau


Edited by Prenzlau, 07 August 2018 - 04:03 PM.

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LMG #2 Posted 07 August 2018 - 03:26 PM

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The thing about low-flying RB-17s is that it's a lot faster than any other ground pounder at the tier (hell, it's faster than most planes at tier 8), tougher than them, has a very scary payload that can basically one-shot anything you drop it on and it has the quickest reload time on its payload than any other plane at the tier. This means that it goes quicker from sector to sector, can cap each sector very quickly by reliably one-shotting the most valuable ground targets, can escape most threats, and has the health pool to attempt to kill anything that does catch up to it with its reargun. It becomes better in pretty much every important aspect than any other ground pounder at tier 8, and some people did some further testing and the thing can even out-cap skilled tier X GAAs. I know for sure that I cannot even attempt to keep up with a decent low-flying RB-17 on my IL-20, let alone the Me 329 or anything at tier 7.

 

That's pretty much why I recommended to buff the RB-17 a bit and toss it into tier 9 rather than nerfing it. The plane can take it, and I've heard some actual RB-17 players agree with me


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TNTdalet8 #3 Posted 07 August 2018 - 03:59 PM

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Personally, I have no issue at all with the RB-17. I've had good success hunting them at both low and high altitude with my XP-72, and I'm a potato. Are they dangerous? Yes, but so are a lot of other planes. Just adapt your tactics and kill 'em.

The_Wild_Weasel #4 Posted 07 August 2018 - 04:09 PM

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Just fly a 262, thats their "bread and butter" 

 

If I return to WOWP at some point , ima fly that RB non stop...for giggles

 

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Edited by The_Wild_Weasel, 07 August 2018 - 04:10 PM.


SpiritFoxMY #5 Posted 07 August 2018 - 04:49 PM

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I hate RB-17s with a vengeance. Not the high fliers; the low altitude bombers. There're only two ways to beat them: fly a 262 and headhunt them or fly in a flight and outcap them.

 

But what I hate most about them isn't that they're stupidly powerful in skilled hands, or that two good players, one in an RB-17 and the other in a Spitfire XIV is basically gg-no-re for players of equal skill, but because they force a playstyle that is so. goddamn. boring.

 

Its chasey-chasey-catchy-catchy with a plane that's faster than most, has the ability to kill anyone trying to chase and the hitpoints to weather a lot of incoming fire AND a respawn timer that means that they have at least one get-out-of-jail-free respawn. The opposing team needs stupid levels of coordination and skill between at least +1 the number of equally skilled RB-17 pilots because the RB-17 isn't the only plane on the map.

 

Also, I'm seeing RB-17 pilots increasingly exploit the "fly out the map border on boost" bug to get free shots from their turret on fighters that are being forced by the game to present their most vulnerable profile, recover HP and get outside cap points so at least they don't die in them and lose all their work.

 

Basically - either RB-17s need a nerf or other planes need a buff. Or just boot it up to tier 9.


Edited by SpiritFoxMY, 07 August 2018 - 04:50 PM.

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Captain_Underpants53 #6 Posted 07 August 2018 - 05:01 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 07 August 2018 - 10:09 AM, said:

    There have been a few people that have been vocal lately concerning what they describe as "overpowered premium planes". Since I fly the RB-17, and have over the past few weekends, flown that particular plane a lot, I'm the target of some criticism and frustration. I think we need to look at this with more clarity and insight.

    Here is the logic then. If indeed a premium plane is "over powered" that would imply that any pilot/player that uses it would seem more potent or effective. I do not believe this is the case. The planes are what they are, in the hands of an average pilot/player, you will get average results. The reason some planes, and not all are premium, seem "over powered" is the skill and experience of the pilot/player that is using them. I've seen first hand some excellent pilot/players that have achieved Aces (20 kills or more) in planes that are considered difficult or below average. Conversely, I have seen average or below average pilot/players struggle with labeled OP planes. An average pilot/player flying any plane will yield average results, and excellent pilot/player flying any plane will yield excellent results. It is that simple. 

    On a personal level, if I paid for a certain plane, like the RB-17, I'm damn well going to fly it. I'm also a bomber pilot who flies lots of bombers, so again, not surprising I fly the RB-17. I fly the RB-17 low and often into swarms of bots and human players over caps, I take the risks, I'm exposed to all sorts of hazards, which include AA, defense planes, bots and humans, and terrain like mountains. It is not that easy, it might look easy and over powering, but I've practiced and put in the time and battles to become a great RB-17 pilot. Why should I feel bad for that? I get shot down, all the time, because again, I'm taking the risk and often exposed to multiple attacking planes. 

    The low level bombing tactics and strategy is not strictly for the RB-17. I also fly the Do 217 M, the A-26B and even the Ju 88A, and believe me the Ju 88A takes a lot of skill, luck and guts to fly low and be effective. I strictly fly the Do 17 z and Blenheim IV at high altitude. Flying bombers is different from other types of planes, obviously, but if your someone who has not had much exposure and experience with bombers, please be respectful and considerate when criticizing the people who do. 

    If a plane is premium it should have it's own unique attributes and it should have advantages, after all that is the point, you pay for it (in theory), I know some have been rewards and such. I know there has been a great deal of negativity towards the specialist system of using parts to upgrade your planes. While I think it needs some tweaking, and a few changes, the benefits through enhancements do outweigh any negatives, and then the player needs to use those enhancements to their advantage. An upgraded premium plane (or any plane for that matter), with a high skill level pilot and a highly skilled player flying it, will seem over powered. 

    Lastly, there are match making situations where it might not matter, as unfair as that sounds. There are lots of reasons why wins and loses occur, and the type of planes flying, the bots, the human players, etc, all play a part, and of course the flawed system of match making and the maps. Sometimes you just don't know ahead of time what you are going to get, or get into, but a person has to take care of their "house" first before attacking others for what they do. 

Prenzlau

 

Dang,  Something I can agree with you about.  Why do I hate myself?


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Wombatmetal #7 Posted 07 August 2018 - 05:42 PM

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RB 17 and A26 are op mostly due to a lack of competition  Get some B25s out there for example. With more tech tree planes I think and the conversation would be different.

Prenzlau #8 Posted 07 August 2018 - 05:44 PM

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View PostCaptain_Underpants53, on 07 August 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

 

Dang,  Something I can agree with you about.  Why do I hate myself?

 

It's because your a bomber first and foremost. Even though we might have some personal disagreements and personality issues, there is always a certain level of respect for anyone who is a veteran bomber. The full time professional bombers in this game is actually a fairly small group. I will advocate and support other players who are bombers, the craft of bombing and the bomber planes. If flying bombers were easy, more players would do it and do it more, but it does take skill and experience. 

 

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comtedumas #9 Posted 07 August 2018 - 06:05 PM

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View PostWombatmetal, on 07 August 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:

RB 17 and A26 are op mostly due to a lack of competition  Get some B25s out there for example. With more tech tree planes I think and the conversation would be different.

 

I agree, bring on more bomber lines, its been 8 months and no new bombers.  

Reitousair #10 Posted 07 August 2018 - 08:23 PM

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There's a difference between skilled play and top-tier plane.

 

Skilled play, for example, I have carried matches in the I-210 with 5 caps and 18 kills never getting shot down once, is it an overpowered plane? No, there are plenty of ways to deal with it, just size up what it's doing then create a strategy to counter it, do you outmaneuver, outspeed, or outgun it? Is it flying fast, slow, what angle, does it have any escape routes, does it notice you?

 

Top-tier planes, like the RB-17, will force a playstyle. It takes skill to use an RB-17 low-alt, anybody who says it's skilless hasn't flown bombers or at least low-alt bombers, however, there is no real counterplay to it besides to fight fire with fire. How are you supposed to outcap an RB-17? You can't just go headhunt them either or else you aren't capping anything, meaning they'll still win since they can just dash to a cap and try to use their health pools to rush past you and flip a cap (provided you can even catch them in the first place,) you need to have your own RB-17 to try and outcap them. More players with good coordination can help tone down the RB-17, but there's no denying it's a plane that is-along with the Pancake-"the meta." To the point deviation will require you to be much more skilled to overcome them.

 

Here's a decent video going over what "the meta" is as well as other things when it comes to balancing (even if it's about a fighting game, there's still relevant information here.)


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Prenzlau #11 Posted 07 August 2018 - 09:37 PM

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View PostReitousair, on 07 August 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

There's a difference between skilled play and top-tier plane.

 

Skilled play, for example, I have carried matches in the I-210 with 5 caps and 18 kills never getting shot down once, is it an overpowered plane? No, there are plenty of ways to deal with it, just size up what it's doing then create a strategy to counter it, do you outmaneuver, outspeed, or outgun it? Is it flying fast, slow, what angle, does it have any escape routes, does it notice you?

 

Top-tier planes, like the RB-17, will force a playstyle. It takes skill to use an RB-17 low-alt, anybody who says it's skilless hasn't flown bombers or at least low-alt bombers, however, there is no real counterplay to it besides to fight fire with fire. How are you supposed to outcap an RB-17? You can't just go headhunt them either or else you aren't capping anything, meaning they'll still win since they can just dash to a cap and try to use their health pools to rush past you and flip a cap (provided you can even catch them in the first place,) you need to have your own RB-17 to try and outcap them. More players with good coordination can help tone down the RB-17, but there's no denying it's a plane that is-along with the Pancake-"the meta." To the point deviation will require you to be much more skilled to overcome them.

 

 

 

    The RB-17 is currently the only jet powered bomber in the game. It is not the fastest plane, although it has a long boost which makes it appear to be faster than other planes because it can sustain a higher speed for a longer period of time. A lot of what you are saying are generalizations. The RB-17 can be very efficient at capping, IF the player flying it is skilled enough to use it that way. Just like your IL-10M, it can be very efficient and deadly IF the right skilled player is flying it. Otherwise, these are just planes, and maybe some are slightly better than others stock, players that are skilled in any type of plane will prevail the vast majority of time against less skilled players, even in what people label as OP planes. Again, I find people blaming the planes and ignoring the human element. Like a samurai sword, in the hands of someone who has had no training or limited training, is it deadly? Sure it is, it is a weapon. But in the hands of an elite sword master who is a skilled fighter, the master's ability and skill gets channeled through the sword and it appears to be even more deadly, but the sword is still just the sword. 

    I could just as easily make a parallel argument that certain players are "over powered" and that they force changes in play style as well. Should over powered players be nerf'ed or banned so that other players have more of a chance to win? I've had the same choice you give as an example when I have played against elite players, do I go after them, in the hope I might slow them down and ignore capping? 

How does this sentence that I edited sound?

 

"More players with good coordination can help tone down other elite players, but there's no denying that they are as a group-"the meta." To the point deviation will require you to be much more skilled to overcome them"

 

    That is a true statement. 

 

"Skilled play, for example, I have carried matches in the I-210 with 5 caps and 18 kills never getting shot down once, is it an overpowered plane?"

Answer: No, it is an over powered player.

 

    That is exactly my point. The plane is what it is. In the hands of a elite skilled player, the plane is a deadly weapon. In the hands of a mediocre player, it reflects the skill of the player flying it. The RB-17 by itself might have more potential than other planes, and if that is the "meta", so be it, but only a skilled player can utilize that potential. Again, do we have a debate on what makes an over powered player and the effects of that player on the game? Or is that going too far?  

    Players are who they are, and planes are what they are. We should just leave it as it is. Otherwise the debate gets too interesting. Every battle no matter what plane you are in, no matter who you are as a player, is a battle that could be won or lost and the results speak for themselves. We get credit and victories for what we do well and we take defeats for what we don't do well. And YES, I fully realize that everyone who plays wins and loses games they should or should not because of the game itself. 

 

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sneakytails #12 Posted 07 August 2018 - 09:38 PM

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That's why I enjoyed Attrition mode far more, RB17's had less impact there. Its Conquest where it ruins things, you will never be able to keep up with them flipping the caps.

 

If Conquest mode stays then the RB-17 needs to be moved to T9 where more planes can actually counter it, T7's cant.

 

 

 

 



Prenzlau #13 Posted 07 August 2018 - 09:44 PM

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View Postsneakytails, on 07 August 2018 - 03:38 PM, said:

That's why I enjoyed Attrition mode far more, RB17's had less impact there. Its Conquest where it ruins things, you will never be able to keep up with them flipping the caps.

 

If Conquest mode stays then the RB-17 needs to be moved to T9 where more planes can actually counter it, T7's cant.

 

 

 

 

 

I am trying very hard to see your point, but again, it is like assuming that everyone flying the RB-17 is an advanced or elite player. No. Not everyone who flies an RB-17 is a good pilot/player. The few impact RB-17 players make an impression and then the plane gets labeled as too overpowered. I keep saying this, it is the players, it is their skills and their skill level, with other planes. Picking on RB-17's and pancakes is an excuse. 

 

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Wombatmetal #14 Posted 07 August 2018 - 09:57 PM

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All in all, a good player in a bad plane is better than a bad player in a good plane. Players make more of an impact than the equipment with few exceptions 

MagusGerhardt #15 Posted 07 August 2018 - 09:57 PM

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Not everyone flying the RB-17 is exploiting current game flaws to produce an OP package.

 

The RB-17, used as originally intended, is quite balanced.  Barnstorming ahistorically and abusing the broken engine boost consumable is broken.

 

Removal or correction of the consumable and a nice hefty nerf to her speed and handling at extremely low altitudes will correct the RB-17s issues nicely.


 

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LMG #16 Posted 07 August 2018 - 10:46 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 07 August 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

I am trying very hard to see your point, but again, it is like assuming that everyone flying the RB-17 is an advanced or elite player. No. Not everyone who flies an RB-17 is a good pilot/player. The few impact RB-17 players make an impression and then the plane gets labeled as too overpowered. I keep saying this, it is the players, it is their skills and their skill level, with other planes. Picking on RB-17's and pancakes is an excuse. 

 

Prenzlau

 

Let me put it this way. I'm in my IL-20, and I get into a battle against an RB-17. What can I do to win the match? He's faster than me, so I can't just chase it around. He caps faster than me, so I lose in the ground game. I'm a GAA, so I can't try to win the battle in the air. My only real advantage is the increased firepower on my frontal guns, but I cannot make use of that unless the RB-17 gets in range of me in the first place.

 

Do I just have to pray he's bad at flying the RB-17 so I can pull out a win? Or is there something else that I don't know of?

 

Let's try a different plane. I'm in my Me 329, and I get into a battle against an RB-17. What can I do to win the match? He's still faster than me, so I cannot chase it around effectively. He definitely caps faster than me, so I lose in the ground game. While the Me 329 fares a bit better than the IL-20 in aerial combat, it's still lacking thanks to its lackluster handling, GAA ballistics (aka, no auto aim), and the slow 30mm shells being unreliable at hitting aircraft. Not only that, I lose the range of the IL-20, so I have to hope the RB-17 gets even closer to me now.

 

Do I just have to pray he's bad at flying the RB-17 so I can pull out a win? Or is there something else that I don't know of?

 

For comparison, let's compare these two GAAs. I'm in an IL-20 and I get into a battle against an Me 329. What can I do to win the match? He's faster than me, so I cannot chase it around effectively. I cap faster than it, so I should focus on winning the ground game. The Me 329 will most likely come out on top in a direct engagement, and it can initiate it at any time, so I have to make sure to keep my distance and stay aware of its location.

 

Let's flip it around. I'm in an Me 329 and I get into a battle against an IL-20. What can I do to win the match? I'm faster than him, so I could just focus him down and keep him from getting caps. He caps faster than me, but I can switch between sectors quicker. If I pick my targets carefully, I could try to minimize my time in a sector to make use of that faster travel time and keep up with him. If not, I'm better in a direct engagement, so I could aggressively keep him at bay and monopolize important sectors; should he try to come in I can bully him out.

 

When I look at these two aircraft they have things that each does better than the other, allowing for counterplay to come out on top in different scenarios. Even when I'm fighting a skilled player on the other plane, I can try and make something work with what I have and they don't. When I compare any of them to a low-flying RB-17, I basically have to hope the RB-17 isn't good enough to make use of every advantage it has.

 

Unless there's something about the RB-17 that I can exploit to win a match against it.


Edited by LMG, 07 August 2018 - 11:05 PM.

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Reitousair #17 Posted 08 August 2018 - 12:03 AM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 07 August 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

 

    The RB-17 is currently the only jet powered bomber in the game. It is not the fastest plane, although it has a long boost which makes it appear to be faster than other planes because it can sustain a higher speed for a longer period of time. A lot of what you are saying are generalizations. The RB-17 can be very efficient at capping, IF the player flying it is skilled enough to use it that way. Just like your IL-10M, it can be very efficient and deadly IF the right skilled player is flying it. Otherwise, these are just planes, and maybe some are slightly better than others stock, players that are skilled in any type of plane will prevail the vast majority of time against less skilled players, even in what people label as OP planes. Again, I find people blaming the planes and ignoring the human element. Like a samurai sword, in the hands of someone who has had no training or limited training, is it deadly? Sure it is, it is a weapon. But in the hands of an elite sword master who is a skilled fighter, the master's ability and skill gets channeled through the sword and it appears to be even more deadly, but the sword is still just the sword. 

 

    That is exactly my point. The plane is what it is. In the hands of a elite skilled player, the plane is a deadly weapon. In the hands of a mediocre player, it reflects the skill of the player flying it. The RB-17 by itself might have more potential than other planes, and if that is the "meta", so be it, but only a skilled player can utilize that potential. Again, do we have a debate on what makes an over powered player and the effects of that player on the game? Or is that going too far?  

    Players are who they are, and planes are what they are. We should just leave it as it is. Otherwise the debate gets too interesting. Every battle no matter what plane you are in, no matter who you are as a player, is a battle that could be won or lost and the results speak for themselves. We get credit and victories for what we do well and we take defeats for what we don't do well. And YES, I fully realize that everyone who plays wins and loses games they should or should not because of the game itself. 

 

Prenzlau

 

 

Like I said, there is a difference between skilled play and top-tier plane. Perhaps this will be a bit easier to get through:

 

Planes like the RB-17, Pancake, and SE-100 all have matches revolve around them due to their power. You almost always need multiple people to eliminate or shut them down, however this also means the enemy team can try to create counter tactics to protect their meta plane and let it do its thing. If you leave them alone or don't create serious strategies that require coordination to shut down/protect these aircraft you either let them run rampant or have them get rendered useless by a swarm of enemy players and thus lose a huge part of your teams capping/killing power.

 

The RB-17 is a plane that, again, forces people to play in certain ways. Now, I want to make the distinction here first off that I'm talking about low-alt RB-17, high-alt RB-17 lets GA stand a ghost of a chance to keep up since it seems I didn't apply enough context. A low-alt RB-17 is extremely fast for a tier 8 and it can hold said speed for well beyond anything but maybe heavy fighters which allows it to travel between points so fast that not even the Me 329 can compete, if you let it exist you lose, so you need to try and form a counterplay, problem comes it's extremely difficult to catch an RB-17 and it's tanky enough to eat a pass from everything it sees, so, you need some help in the form of other players. With this squadron of players you can properly try to counter the RB-17 but... well, I think you see the problem here, the game is not revolving around map layouts, tactics, or map strategies, it's focused on one, single plane.

 

You see, the player doesn't quite matter as much, if they're a bad low-alt RB-17 player then they're not nearly as threatening. However, bad players or not, the aircraft itself is so strong that not basing your gameplay off of it is a surefire defeat unless the pilot is REALLY bad. However, if we assume everybody is of equal skill level and there are lots of players, then how exactly are GA supposed to keep up with an RB-17? How are anything but HF's supposed to be able to intercept and pursue an RB-17, and even then how are the HF's going to handle enemy players coming to intercept them to protect their RB-17? Again, it's not an unkillable plane, and it does require skill to use, but just because something takes skill to use it should not be a nigh uncounterable aircraft without forcing people to play around them. 

 

I see you brought up my IL-10M, I don't think you realize that the IL-10M is actually not very good when it comes to both the air and ground games, as such it can easily be countered, it's a very slow, maneuverable GA, so it's possible to just BnZ it and make it pretty much impossible for it to retaliate. It's also possible for other GA to try and outcap it by utilizing superior speed and armaments. My IL-10M does not force other people to have to form their matches that revolve solely around my aircraft, and there's ways to counter it without requiring a tactician and coordinated effort to stop it. There's a difference between skilled play and top-tier plane.

 

/end of post this is getting to the point it's just spamworthy now lol

 


I do fly Chinese aircraft a fair amount so... *ahem*

CHINA NUMBAH WAN

 

I even made a custom skin for my IL-10M!

 


mnbv_fockewulfe #18 Posted 08 August 2018 - 12:19 AM

    First Lieutenant

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  • Member since:
    12-06-2013

A simple solution to low alt RBs would be to reinstate alt bands.

For some reason the devs are against this. :sceptic:

Too much like the old game maybe...


Be sure to check your logic privileges before posting on the forum.

 

mnbv_fockewulfe.png


 


SpiritFoxMY #19 Posted 08 August 2018 - 01:24 AM

    Second Lieutenant

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    12-31-2012

I ran into a Specialist RB17 one match in my Me329 flighted with my cousin in a Pancake. He capped the Plant on the far side of the map at the same time we capped the MB in the center, within three minutes of the start of the match. He then proceeded to cap the MB and fly straight over to the Plant I was capping before I was even a quarter of the way done and Capped THAT right in front of me.

 

My cousin had recaptured the MB by then so he casually flew back down the river and flipped it AGAIN then proceeded to cap an airfield, flew back to the Plant I'd finally managed to Cap from him, flipped it then strolled over to the MB we'd recapped for the second time and capped that as well.

 

That game lasted 9 minutes and ended in a Superiority sweep. I couldn't outcap him. My cousin was swamped by EVERY OTHER BOT on his team. It took two of us twice as long to cap a point as it took him and if either of us tried to engage, he just pointed his [edited]at us and hit boost while his tailgun crit us to hell.

 

You take a look at that and tell me that plane isn't fucjiln OP. How much harder could any of us have played? I had two bombs and four 30mms. I objectively cannot cap or even fly as fast as he does. My cousin was solo defending against practically the entire enemy bot team most of the match. He couldn't have carried harder with an almost 14k points score in a 9 minute game. I pulled in 9k, which by my standards in the 329 is bloody fantastic.

 

But we couldn't touch him. God I tried. I even shot him down once but he respawns faster than we can cap...


***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


Prenzlau #20 Posted 08 August 2018 - 02:44 AM

    Senior Master Sergeant

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  • Member since:
    12-14-2015

View PostReitousair, on 07 August 2018 - 06:03 PM, said:

 

Like I said, there is a difference between skilled play and top-tier plane. Perhaps this will be a bit easier to get through:

 

Planes like the RB-17, Pancake, and SE-100 all have matches revolve around them due to their power. You almost always need multiple people to eliminate or shut them down, however this also means the enemy team can try to create counter tactics to protect their meta plane and let it do its thing. If you leave them alone or don't create serious strategies that require coordination to shut down/protect these aircraft you either let them run rampant or have them get rendered useless by a swarm of enemy players and thus lose a huge part of your teams capping/killing power.

 

The RB-17 is a plane that, again, forces people to play in certain ways. Now, I want to make the distinction here first off that I'm talking about low-alt RB-17, high-alt RB-17 lets GA stand a ghost of a chance to keep up since it seems I didn't apply enough context. A low-alt RB-17 is extremely fast for a tier 8 and it can hold said speed for well beyond anything but maybe heavy fighters which allows it to travel between points so fast that not even the Me 329 can compete, if you let it exist you lose, so you need to try and form a counterplay, problem comes it's extremely difficult to catch an RB-17 and it's tanky enough to eat a pass from everything it sees, so, you need some help in the form of other players. With this squadron of players you can properly try to counter the RB-17 but... well, I think you see the problem here, the game is not revolving around map layouts, tactics, or map strategies, it's focused on one, single plane.

 

You see, the player doesn't quite matter as much, if they're a bad low-alt RB-17 player then they're not nearly as threatening. However, bad players or not, the aircraft itself is so strong that not basing your gameplay off of it is a surefire defeat unless the pilot is REALLY bad. However, if we assume everybody is of equal skill level and there are lots of players, then how exactly are GA supposed to keep up with an RB-17? How are anything but HF's supposed to be able to intercept and pursue an RB-17, and even then how are the HF's going to handle enemy players coming to intercept them to protect their RB-17? Again, it's not an unkillable plane, and it does require skill to use, but just because something takes skill to use it should not be a nigh uncounterable aircraft without forcing people to play around them. 

 

I see you brought up my IL-10M, I don't think you realize that the IL-10M is actually not very good when it comes to both the air and ground games, as such it can easily be countered, it's a very slow, maneuverable GA, so it's possible to just BnZ it and make it pretty much impossible for it to retaliate. It's also possible for other GA to try and outcap it by utilizing superior speed and armaments. My IL-10M does not force other people to have to form their matches that revolve solely around my aircraft, and there's ways to counter it without requiring a tactician and coordinated effort to stop it. There's a difference between skilled play and top-tier plane.

 

/end of post this is getting to the point it's just spamworthy now lol

 

 

I completely disagree. 

 

Planes like the RB-17, Pancake, and SE-100 all have matches revolve around them due to their power. You almost always need multiple people to eliminate or shut them down, however this also means the enemy team can try to create counter tactics to protect their meta plane and let it do its thing. If you leave them alone or don't create serious strategies that require coordination to shut down/protect these aircraft you either let them run rampant or have them get rendered useless by a swarm of enemy players and thus lose a huge part of your teams capping/killing power.

 

Matches do not always revolve around these planes. No matter what plane I am in, I DO NOT think to myself, "Oh man there is an SE 100, or Pancake on the other team, I'm going to have to coordinate with the other humans on my team to deal with them". No, No, No! What I do think is when I see YOU, or any other HVAR, or another player in the top 25 of the hall of fame, or someone I know is just damn formidable, then I think "oh man, now I have to defeat them". They could be in any plane!!! It is the player that I think is going to be the challenge, NOT THE PLANE. 

 

You see, the player doesn't quite matter as much, if they're a bad low-alt RB-17 player then they're not nearly as threatening. However, bad players or not, the aircraft itself is so strong that not basing your gameplay off of it is a surefire defeat unless the pilot is REALLY bad. However, if we assume everybody is of equal skill level and there are lots of players, then how exactly are GA supposed to keep up with an RB-17? How are anything but HF's supposed to be able to intercept and pursue an RB-17, and even then how are the HF's going to handle enemy players coming to intercept them to protect their RB-17? Again, it's not an unkillable plane, and it does require skill to use, but just because something takes skill to use it should not be a nigh uncounterable aircraft without forcing people to play around them.

 

Again, I disagree. Here are the stats from what I would describe as a anonymous good solid RB-17 player who has over 200 hrs of flight time. 61% win rate, ave. 6 ground kills per sortie, less than 1 air kill per sortie. Ave capture 3 sectors per battle. Ok, this is not an average RB-17 player, this is someone who is good and occasionally has a great game. Yet there is nothing terribly scary about these stats. Certainly someone who can contribute to a battle and flipping 3 sectors or more probably does win 61% of their battles. So strong though that they cannot be dealt with? I think not. So strong that the other team has to go to extremes to deal with, again I think not. I like how you minimize the role of ground attack planes and exacerbate the role of the RB-17 all things being equal.

Next. The player does matter. The skill of the player matters, more than the mechanics of the plane. It is funny how I speak about "over powered" players but you don't touch that with a 10 foot pole. Why not? Here let us examine why.

 

Reitousair. Win rate 82.28% Really??? How does someone manage an 82.28% career win rate in this game and not be described as "over powered"??? Flying efficiency rates, all above 20, but heavy fighters is 32.6 and ground attack planes, an eye popping 43.2!!! That means your a stone cold killer and a ruthless efficient winner. In the IL-10M you average 12 ground target kills per sortie, and 2 air targets per sortie. You capture 4 sectors per battle on average. 

 

My IL-10M does not force other people to have to form their matches that revolve solely around my aircraft - The evidence seems to contradict this. You are one of the most dangerous ground attack player I have seen. 

 

So please explain to me why anyone on the other side would even worry about what planes your side are flying, when your winning battles at an 82.28% rate? If the game wasn't so flawed, I'd estimate your win % would be above 90. Not to mention all the other over powered players that clog the top tiers of the hall of fame. You see the player does not quite matter... B*llsh*t! The player controls the plane. When it comes to the RB-17 there is only a very small group that can even compete with the other top players in this game much less influence a battle so strongly that the other side had no chance. 

 

just because something takes skill to use it should not be a nigh uncounterable aircraft without forcing people to play around them. 

 

This is simply not true. I've been countered regularly, chased across the map by humans and bots, pulverized by AA and defense planes, and blown out of the sky by humans in various planes. Anyone who flies the RB-17 will agree with this, and RB-17 players earn everything they accomplish. This idea that the RB-17 is "uncounterable" is ridiculous! Any heavy fighter with an experienced and skilled pilot will win the battle against the RB-17 if they use basic tactics and positioning. Over powered skill players are far more "uncounterable" in my opinion.

 

Over the past 28 days according to the in game stats, you fought 563 battles and had a 89.7% win rate. Outstanding almost does not do it justice. My point is not to discredit you as a player, not at all, it is to point out that it is plain hypocritical to talk about planes as "over powered" when your "over powered" no matter what plane your in. In the past 28 days, your human opponents lost near 90% of their battles when you were on the other side. That means, and lets be honest, they did not have much of a chance. Even as good as I am in the RB-17  I have never beaten you head to head with that plane, and every defeat was lop sided. You might be humble but your stats are not. 

 

There's a difference between skilled play and top-tier plane.

 

You bet there is! Skilled play is the dominate factor, not so much the plane. You don't have to look any further than the win rates of any player to know how much they influence battles. 

 

Prenzlau

 

 

 

 


Edited by Prenzlau, 08 August 2018 - 03:14 AM.

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