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Current state of High altitude AA


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comtedumas #1 Posted 05 July 2018 - 09:04 PM

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High aa is too powerful, too accurate, makes altitude and direction changes instantly, and they ignore bots and go for humans first.  They just removed a aa protection subsystem in the new patch, and you can't go over a target now without losing 30-50% of your health every time.

Prenzlau #2 Posted 05 July 2018 - 09:18 PM

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View Postcomtedumas, on 05 July 2018 - 03:04 PM, said:

High aa is too powerful, too accurate, makes altitude and direction changes instantly, and they ignore bots and go for humans first.  They just removed a aa protection subsystem in the new patch, and you can't go over a target now without losing 30-50% of your health every time.

 

Hey Comtedumas can you elaborate on what planes and at what tiers you think the AA is the worse or most effective? It seems to me that not all planes are affected the same way and that certain planes have been hit harder by the patch and the change in the AA. Also the play style (of the player) who is piloting the plane and how it holds up to AA fire does matter.

Can you add some information to your post?

 

Prenzlau


Edited by Prenzlau, 05 July 2018 - 09:19 PM.

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comtedumas #3 Posted 05 July 2018 - 09:54 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 05 July 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

 

Hey Comtedumas can you elaborate on what planes and at what tiers you think the AA is the worse or most effective? It seems to me that not all planes are affected the same way and that certain planes have been hit harder by the patch and the change in the AA. Also the play style (of the player) who is piloting the plane and how it holds up to AA fire does matter.

Can you add some information to your post?

 

Prenzlau

 

All the bombers are heavily affected, all GAA are affected but not as bad as the bombers.  I gauge the Blenheim, Ju-88A (especially), and the Do-217M the most vulnerable of the bombers now due to high altitude AA, while the Do-17 bomber isn't as badly affected, and I don't own the RB-17 yet.  and I have noticed that AA will ignore bot bombers at 6000ft and concentrate on me at 10,000+ ft.  

 

with the GAA I can fly into a sector and not be 50% health half way though taking it, where as with bombers its like there is a tracking device on my plane and they have computer control aiming.  Also using the new module for added range on my guns for GAA I have a chance to shoot low aa in GAA before I am in range of them so I can handle them.  (lets not even mention low AA firing through buildings and such while my gunfire hits the buildings.)  

 

using the German 88mm as a reference (http://military.wiki...lak_18/36/37/41), which shows a Rate of fire of 15-20 rounds a minute, there is no way they could have fired that many rounds a minute and made aiming changes as well at planes at altitude.  I can be flying north, turn 90 degrees to heading 090 while changing altitude and the flak is on my level, right ahead of or around my plane instantly.  in fact, I did some reading about it and in real life they didn't shoot at individual planes but tried to fill a volume of space with lots of flak shells.  



MagusGerhardt #4 Posted 05 July 2018 - 10:04 PM

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It's awful.  Combined with bombers being stripped of Concealing Livery protection it is dreadfully awful and another reason I'm on a long-term hiatus from the game.

 

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LMG #5 Posted 05 July 2018 - 11:32 PM

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Part of the issue is that GAAs have an easy way to deal with AA guns through gunfire. Bombers, however, do not, so they have to tank the damage and hope for the best. Maybe give them a significantly lower accuracy depending on how high their target is?


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Prenzlau #6 Posted 06 July 2018 - 03:21 PM

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Speaking just for myself. With the Blenheim and Do 17 z which I almost always fly at higher altitude, the more potent AA can be a problem. My bomb reload speed on the Blenheim is fast enough for me to target pesky AA and cut down a lot of the AA fire that way. With the Do 17 z, again I am forced especially over missile bases and command centers to target AA more to cut down the damage. Consciously zig-zagging your plane when not lining up to bomb really cut down on the number of AA hits and trying to fly out of caps (Do 17 z) while your waiting for bomb reload also helps. 

I low level (tree top) bomb with the RB-17, A-26B, Do 217 M, and Ju 88a. The AA fire with the RB-17 is really more of a nuisance than anything because I'm constantly boosting and managing my boost with engine cooling so my speeds are usually between 600-800+ kph with the RB-17. More AA damage is taken by the A-26B and Do 217 M. With the A-26B which has a much faster reload time, I have the luxury of knocking down AA at will if I chose and still hitting the key targets in the cap. With the Do 217 M on some caps (especially if the cap is depleted at all) I can "one pass" and flip the cap (if it is depleted), similar to the RB-17. When you can "one pass" a cap near top speed, the AA doesn't seem to matter too much. So instead of endurance, I utilize speed as much as possible, the hard points do decrease speed, but the boost or engine upgrade helps even things out. In my opinion the engine cooling is invaluable. 

The Ju 88a is more of a challenge to know what to do with. Last night I flew multiple battles at high altitude and multiple battles at low altitude. The high altitude battles were less successful in terms of ground targets destroyed and impacting the battle by capturing sectors. You really have to fly at medium altitude or lower to have any decent accuracy with the bomb drops, even with a sight. I do not use sights on any of my bombers, the decreased reload time, in my opinion is just too valuable. You also still get the AA damage and harassment by fighters and heavies. Lower level bombing was more successful, double or triple the number of ground targets destroyed, less AA damage and to be honest less attention by heavies, but not necessarily by defense planes, multi-roles and fighters, also GA's can shoot you as well. I simply flipped more caps, destroyed more ground targets and influenced the battle for my team at the cost of being shot down maybe one or two extra times, but it is worth it in my opinion. 

The real "art" of low level bombing is knowing where to be and flying to avoid enemy contact. Knowing how to attack a particular kind of cap, just like a ground attack, and use your speed to your advantage. It is not always easy, and it takes timing and skill to master, again just like a GA but with different aspects. I believe if a player is a skilled GA pilot then using low level bombers should be something they can pick up really quickly. 

I'll be honest, if I would have stayed strictly as a high level bomber, by now I would have went back to fighters and other planes on a regular basis and probably only dabbled in bombers. Because of the game and how it has changed. Also, again to be honest, I simply could no longer compete with other really excellent bomber players flying low level, so I had to "join them to be able to have the chance to beat them". I fully realize that in many minds most bombers should be high altitude planes, for realism, and I agree totally. I also, however, want my team to win, and I personally want to do well and win, so I do what I have to. Finally, and I know other low level bombers will agree with this, it is so much fun, truly. 

 

Hope some of this helps (anyone) in some way.

 

Prenzlau


Edited by Prenzlau, 06 July 2018 - 03:30 PM.

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SonicPariah #7 Posted 06 July 2018 - 07:16 PM

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Noted on all counts, everyone.

 

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions.



Bobby_Tables #8 Posted 06 July 2018 - 11:57 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 06 July 2018 - 09:21 AM, said:

 

Hope some of this helps (anyone) in some way.

 

Prenzlau

 

That was helpful.  I did play the bombers a bit and then went back to fighters and just dabble from time to time.  I might spend more time in them and experiment with some of this.  



comtedumas #9 Posted 07 July 2018 - 01:28 AM

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Ok, I just got the RB-17 yesterday, and at 12000 ft high AA wasn’t a huge problem.  But I am still losing 20% over a sector easily.  I need to play it some more to draw better conclusions.  And I need to learn to go low better.  

 

A26B it isn’t a huge problem either, because as a plane it’s far more “active” than the others, and with that bomb reload time it’s easy to kill AA at altitude.  It’s the German ones that are the main problems.  I don’t find any of them maneuverable enough to really go low altitude with, and then you only get one pass before you have a whole minute (almost) of reload time.  And face it, their gunners and turrets suck, so staying alive after that one pass is very problematic.  It the bots didn’t prioritize the humans first and bots second and did prioritize threats first regardless of who’s flying it would help out a lot.  

 

But it I still believe the core of this thread is correct, High altitude AA is too accurate and losing concealing livery was a deathnel (sp) to bombing as it stands right now, and in the future if they bring in new bombers it’s going to make people not want to play them.  That’s going to hurt WG’s bottom line.  



Prenzlau #10 Posted 07 July 2018 - 04:28 AM

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I just got done flying many battles with my wingman Zigfreid. He started in the Ju 88a flying low and I was in the P-38F covering him from above. Worked out swell, he had some really nice games. The we moved up to tier 6, and he flew low in the Do 217 M and I was in the German Spit, or the P-38J, again flying cover so he could bomb without a lot of harassment. Then we went to the double RB-17's, again tree top flying and we had so much fun and lots of wins. 

I hear your concerns and your perspective. It's something you just have to do, and see and gain experience at. I can tell you, honestly, it is not so bad with the German bombers. I think you underestimate the power of the Do 217 M and its devastating ability to destroy caps. Not to mention two of them working together. 

Your assessment of the AA is correct. But as far as surviving and winning, I'm doing it, having fun. Others are doing it as well. 

 

Anytime you want to fly with me and fly low, just flag me or send me a message. Once you get the RB-17 worked up and enhanced and you are comfortable flying it at low level, you will never go back up again to higher altitudes and you'll have so much fun that this game will change. It's like ground attack but the speed is so addicting. Give it a chance, you might be pleasantly surprised.

 

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Prenzlau #11 Posted 07 July 2018 - 04:31 AM

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View PostBobby_Tables, on 06 July 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

 

That was helpful.  I did play the bombers a bit and then went back to fighters and just dabble from time to time.  I might spend more time in them and experiment with some of this.  

 

Anytime you want to flight up with me, I'll be glad to help in any way. That wrestling video you posted that compared me and zig as a tag team was so amusing. I'll never forget. 

 

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trikke #12 Posted 07 July 2018 - 03:07 PM

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View PostMagusGerhardt, on 05 July 2018 - 06:04 PM, said:

It's awful.  Combined with bombers being stripped of Concealing Livery protection it is dreadfully awful and another reason I'm on a long-term hiatus from the game.

 

i'm not much of a complainer, but high altitude bombing is much harder because of the recent increase in the precision of the high altitude AA

 

i'm not a low altitude bomber, because it's a sign of a broken meta, and it's just not my thing

 

i'm stopping flying bombers until the pendulum swings back... and i'll miss it so much


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MagusGerhardt #13 Posted 08 July 2018 - 01:47 AM

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View Posttrikke, on 07 July 2018 - 08:07 AM, said:

 

i'm not much of a complainer, but high altitude bombing is much harder because of the recent increase in the precision of the high altitude AA

 

i'm not a low altitude bomber, because it's a sign of a broken meta, and it's just not my thing

 

i'm stopping flying bombers until the pendulum swings back... and i'll miss it so much

 

It's not only much harder...it's also much less rewarding and most importantly...much less fun.  In fact the fun factor of playing bombers that way is now a negative quantity.  :(


 

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comtedumas #14 Posted 08 July 2018 - 09:05 AM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 06 July 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:

I just got done flying many battles with my wingman Zigfreid. He started in the Ju 88a flying low and I was in the P-38F covering him from above. Worked out swell, he had some really nice games. The we moved up to tier 6, and he flew low in the Do 217 M and I was in the German Spit, or the P-38J, again flying cover so he could bomb without a lot of harassment. Then we went to the double RB-17's, again tree top flying and we had so much fun and lots of wins. 

I hear your concerns and your perspective. It's something you just have to do, and see and gain experience at. I can tell you, honestly, it is not so bad with the German bombers. I think you underestimate the power of the Do 217 M and its devastating ability to destroy caps. Not to mention two of them working together. 

Your assessment of the AA is correct. But as far as surviving and winning, I'm doing it, having fun. Others are doing it as well. 

 

Anytime you want to fly with me and fly low, just flag me or send me a message. Once you get the RB-17 worked up and enhanced and you are comfortable flying it at low level, you will never go back up again to higher altitudes and you'll have so much fun that this game will change. It's like ground attack but the speed is so addicting. Give it a chance, you might be pleasantly surprised.

 

Prenzlau

 

I was in a mission with you a few days ago, and that RB-17 you were flying was fast.  You must have every engine boost possible on it.  WOW.    

 

Its going to to be a while, I am currently trolling at 6000-7000 feet trying to get the gunner kills for specialist in the RB17, I got 8 today.  Once you get that it's inevitable that you will get the capture points to go specialist.  I will say this, the RB-17 does print money, even in a loss.  

 

We we will fly sometime, I look forward to it.  



CorvusCorvax #15 Posted 08 July 2018 - 03:34 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 07 July 2018 - 04:28 AM, said:

I just got done flying many battles with my wingman Zigfreid. He started in the Ju 88a flying low and I was in the P-38F covering him from above. Worked out swell, he had some really nice games. The we moved up to tier 6, and he flew low in the Do 217 M and I was in the German Spit, or the P-38J, again flying cover so he could bomb without a lot of harassment. Then we went to the double RB-17's, again tree top flying and we had so much fun and lots of wins. 

I hear your concerns and your perspective. It's something you just have to do, and see and gain experience at. I can tell you, honestly, it is not so bad with the German bombers. I think you underestimate the power of the Do 217 M and its devastating ability to destroy caps. Not to mention two of them working together. 

Your assessment of the AA is correct. But as far as surviving and winning, I'm doing it, having fun. Others are doing it as well. 

 

Anytime you want to fly with me and fly low, just flag me or send me a message. Once you get the RB-17 worked up and enhanced and you are comfortable flying it at low level, you will never go back up again to higher altitudes and you'll have so much fun that this game will change. It's like ground attack but the speed is so addicting. Give it a chance, you might be pleasantly surprised.

 

Prenzlau

 

I'd love to fly with you sometime, but it would be great to see a video of you doing low-level RB-17, and commentary on when you're dropping bombs.  I need to lay those eggs better for one-pass cap flips.

I_QQ_4_U #16 Posted 08 July 2018 - 06:11 PM

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AA might be too strong but don't bring reality into a game that has very little to do with it, this isn't a simulator.

mnbv_fockewulfe #17 Posted 08 July 2018 - 06:39 PM

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View PostI_QQ_4_U, on 08 July 2018 - 06:11 PM, said:

AA might be too strong but don't bring reality into a game that has very little to do with it, this isn't a simulator.

 

They've done their best to scrub everything that even smelled like reality out of the game.:angry:

Be sure to check your logic privileges before posting on the forum.

 

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comtedumas #18 Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:24 AM

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tactics are going to have to change for bombers as they are going to have to start clearing AA instead of just going for the high point targets in a sector.  its going to make clearing sectors slower.  if there is no AA change coming, then there should be a shave of 5-10 seconds off of bomb reload time, or a new module (added to the bombsite) to make reload times shorter.  bombers are already not being played as much as they were being played, much more and me and Capt Underpants will be the last ones left.  if we could have proper teams then we could get GAA to help the bombers by clearing aa guns, but most bots don't see aa as a priority at all.  and with aa ignoring them up high, why should they worry about AA?

 

And you know its only going to get worse when they do add more bombers to the lineup, they have already said that the 4 engine bombers are coming.  And think AA is bad on current bombers, when they add the Japanese firetraps its going to be one hit kills.....not going to be pretty.  



SonicPariah #19 Posted 13 July 2018 - 10:47 PM

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AA Guns are being investigated and we are working to re-work or at least re-balance them all.

 

No word on a date, but it is on the list.



comtedumas #20 Posted 14 July 2018 - 12:15 AM

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View PostSonicPariah, on 13 July 2018 - 05:47 PM, said:

AA Guns are being investigated and we are working to re-work or at least re-balance them all.

 

No word on a date, but it is on the list.

 

more information, the AA guns are uniformly accurate from 4000 to 13000ft.  There is no gun on the planet is that universally accurate between a short and a long distance.  (That about as high as I can get the RB-17 to go right now.). 




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