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How does one use a superior Roll Rate?


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AppleTank8 #1 Posted 04 July 2018 - 02:40 AM

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Plane 1 rolls better than Plane 2, what can Plane 1 do with it?

mnbv_fockewulfe #2 Posted 04 July 2018 - 02:51 AM

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A rolling scissors. 

The idea being, the way to avoid an enemy from getting a firing solution on you is to have your up axis opposite or perpendicular to their up axis.

In other words, you want your canopy to be facing the opposite orientation of their canopy.

If you can change the orientation faster the the guy on your tail, then you can effectively avoid his guns, and if you cause him to overshoot you know have a reversal where you are behind him.

 

Another effective uses of rollrate is barrel rolling. This is an evasive tactic to throw off a pursuers aim by pitching and rolling at the same time. This is less effecitve in the current build of the game because of compressed space and auto aim (you move out of the way less and some shots are going to hit you even if the aim is bad).


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trikke #3 Posted 04 July 2018 - 02:57 PM

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from the diagram above...  if i was attacker at position 1, i would just turn left and just try to follow him

 

why would i try to climb above him, to position 2?


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SpiritFoxMY #4 Posted 05 July 2018 - 03:27 PM

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View Posttrikke, on 04 July 2018 - 10:57 PM, said:

from the diagram above...  if i was attacker at position 1, i would just turn left and just try to follow him

 

why would i try to climb above him, to position 2?

 

I would surmise its to position yourself in an attack position without overshooting while at the same time conserving energy. 

 

See, assuming you were both travelling at the same speed approaching at such an angle, if the attacker attempted to pull in on the defender's tail, he would have to slow down dramatically otherwise his own momentum would cause him to overshoot. That would throw away his energy and hand the advantage over to the defender who would still maintain his forward momentum allowing him to disengage from the unfavorable situation and reengage from a favorable position.

 

If he just continued on the dive, he would, again, hand the advantage over to the defender who could just roll over and dive on him and he would not need to worry about overshooting, being in the lower energy position.

 

Therefore, the best way to conserve energy and retain the advantage would be to climb, converting actual energy (speed) into stored energy (altitude) allowing the Attacker to retain his overall energy state while losing the necessary speed to attain the suitable attack position.


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mnbv_fockewulfe #5 Posted 05 July 2018 - 05:33 PM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 05 July 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

 

I would surmise its to position yourself in an attack position without overshooting while at the same time conserving energy. 

 

See, assuming you were both travelling at the same speed approaching at such an angle, if the attacker attempted to pull in on the defender's tail, he would have to slow down dramatically otherwise his own momentum would cause him to overshoot. That would throw away his energy and hand the advantage over to the defender who would still maintain his forward momentum allowing him to disengage from the unfavorable situation and reengage from a favorable position.

 

If he just continued on the dive, he would, again, hand the advantage over to the defender who could just roll over and dive on him and he would not need to worry about overshooting, being in the lower energy position.

 

Therefore, the best way to conserve energy and retain the advantage would be to climb, converting actual energy (speed) into stored energy (altitude) allowing the Attacker to retain his overall energy state while losing the necessary speed to attain the suitable attack position.

 

You are correct, the attacker is initially in a high energy situation, and to avoid overshooting pulls into a high yo yo.

The defender needs to change his speed and direction to keep out of the guns of the attacker. So a rolling competition begins.

 

Another use of roll rate is if the defender with a lower roll rate changes his direction, if the attacker has a higher roll rate he can change his direction sooner and hence, pull a tighter turn than the defender, even if the defender has a better 360 turn time. 


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SpiritFoxMY #6 Posted 05 July 2018 - 05:45 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 06 July 2018 - 01:33 AM, said:

Another use of roll rate is if the defender with a lower roll rate changes his direction, if the attacker has a higher roll rate he can change his direction sooner and hence, pull a tighter turn than the defender, even if the defender has a better 360 turn time. 

 

And this, boys and girls, is why Do335s should never be underestimated in a dogfight


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Reitousair #7 Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:59 AM

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Yup, high roll rate is quite useful for pouncing on people or forcing people to throw away energy in a fight. People really underestimate the Fw 252 but 210 degrees base roll rate makes it pretty much impossible to try and shift directions on it and it's a struggle to try and get it to throw away its energy once it gets on your tail since it can simply keep on doing yo-yo's and lag-displacement rolls. Despite the rather inferior turn-time one should never think they can easily win a dogfight against a smart one who has even ground to you.

 

I guess to sort of give an idea of how important roll rate can be. Roll rate isn't terribly important for somebody who just turnfights or BnZ's, but, if you get into a serious dogfight, a superior roll rate can be key to winning the fight, it's all a matter of the person with better roll rate to know how to maneuver on somebody before they can be near-unstoppable in a dogfight.

 

...Then again considering how all the gamemodes work lengthy dogfights are highly recommended against since it means you're getting tied up and therefore not doing anything to actually win thus having an excellent dogfighting plane isn't terribly useful right now.


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comtedumas #8 Posted 12 July 2018 - 11:35 PM

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View PostAppleTank8, on 03 July 2018 - 09:40 PM, said:

Plane 1 rolls better than Plane 2, what can Plane 1 do with it?

 

with a joystick you can Quarter roll and pull back on the stick for faster/tighter turns.  I haven’t quite got it down as well with a mouse yet.  

Edited by comtedumas, 12 July 2018 - 11:36 PM.


f16falcona46 #9 Posted 13 July 2018 - 01:41 PM

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What you also should do is keep your canopy perpendicular to his if he's on your tail. Most planes pitch better than they yaw. Roll rate also lets you hit multiple targets in one pass, so you can delay your turning and recharge your boost a little bit more.




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