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legoboy0401 #41 Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:09 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 15 June 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

 

I don't mean you any disrespect. Any bomber pilot that has flown the German bombers that is worth their salt knows that your using "pea shooters" to defend against planes that have a great deal more firepower. Yes they are the only defense (other than the pilots flying skill) and yes sometimes you are able to whittle a light fighter down, chase them off or finish off a depleted heavy. Sure, they have their uses. When I think of survival in a German bomber I think of boost/speed, and engine protection, bomb accuracy (more so at higher altitudes and less at low altitudes) and integrity of the wings and tail so you can at least maneuver. I play all three German bombers differently and use different tactics for each. That said, the defensive guns are not going to protect you enough of the time, so you have to plan accordingly. Sometimes your just going to get caught exposed and get shot down, it happens. The idea is to take caps and influence the battle for your team as much as possible, despite the possibility of getting shot down multiple times. 

I'm sorry if you lost interest and had technical or technology problems to keep up and play the game. I can only comment on my perspective and how I see things. 

The "fate of German bombers" might actually be far brighter and more positive, post 2.0.5 patch for the customization and specialization will help in the areas that you can take advantage of the most. I have always looked at the German bombers as devastating weapons and I have learned to use them accordingly. I think things will only be better, but time will tell. 

To be fair I have read over your post a few times now, and I simply cannot agree with your assessment. I don't see bombers as "doomed" planes that are helpless and at the mercy of those who might attack. So I feel like the whole premise that you put forth is not accurate. 

 

Prenzlau

 

This little gem is from Vcharng, and in my opinion it completely proves my fear that bombers will suck now due to patch 2.05 a rational and sane fear to have.(bolding mine)

 

"After a day or two in the new system I can now understand why people are so pissed about it.

It's simple, because your once-invincible Zero and Spitfire is no longer so.

 

After 2.0.5 all LFs and MRs, at least up to mid-tier, can't even carry an engine restarter without getting the "specialist" thing, and would have to choose between a first aid and a fire extinguisher. Combined with the now-a-lot-cheaper universal rounds (from my memory, it went from about 30,000 credit per game to 6000 for mid-tier planes like the Me 410), this means that now HFs and certain HF-ish GAAs can either cripple your pilot forever, fry your engine till you crash, or burn you to your death, in just one pass (or, more realistically, disable you until they make their next pass and actually kill you).

And now a specialist Me 265 is going to have practically endless boost thanks to the new slot, so if you are flying a Spit or Zero or Ki, good luck trying to catch it and have fun being shredded into pieces by its turret.

 

I have to say that they DID achieved what they wanted to: to make the battlefield more diverse. It is going to need a lot of further adjustments (and a lot of effort to reassure those pissed LF pilots), but I think this is a good idea at its very bare concept, but perhaps pretty poorly carried out (e.g. I don't believe you can do this without rebalancing just about everything.)

A few problems include:

1. Bombers can't fight without specialist, they are practically back to stock even when in elite status. And their specialist mission is the most difficult (from my calculation my Do 217 would take about 10x~20x the time to finish its mission, compared to my Me 410), and I think they are a lot less survivable too (as HFs are now far more deadly).

2. This calibration system feels very scam-my-credit-ish. You can learn a lot from those Japanese/ Chinese RPG games, but please don't choose the worst part of them to learn.

3. Like I mentioned before, this most definitely disrupted the intra-category balance, rework is imminent.

4. The balance between specialist and non-specialist is VERY questionable."


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CorvusCorvax #42 Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:10 PM

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View Postlegoboy0401, on 18 June 2018 - 04:01 PM, said:

 

 

 

 German Bombers suck at low-level thanks to their horrible defenses which make them nothing short of cannon fodder/easy xp and credits for enemy planes. Oh, and why am I telling you this anyway? You probably already knew it, and were just trying to troll. 

 

:facepalm:

 

I've seen German bombers run successfully at low level.  It is possible, but you have to know what you are doing.  I know that 217s can flip caps all day long at less than 500m, because I've seen it.



Edward_Thache #43 Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:23 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 18 June 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

 

I've seen German bombers run successfully at low level.  It is possible, but you have to know what you are doing.  I know that 217s can flip caps all day long at less than 500m, because I've seen it.

 

I haven't had much luck with the Ju88A or Do17 at low level but the Do217 is a beast on factories and such at Low level; 2 passes max while flying at over 500 kph, awesome!  Gear up for speed.

Edited by Edward_Thache, 18 June 2018 - 04:27 PM.


legoboy0401 #44 Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:31 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 18 June 2018 - 08:10 AM, said:

 

I've seen German bombers run successfully at low level.  It is possible, but you have to know what you are doing.  I know that 217s can flip caps all day long at less than 500m, because I've seen it.

 

That does ignore their abysmal defense and subpar survivability, and thus I wouldn't ever do it, at least not with the Ju-88A or Do 17Z. But it seems to me that you are arguing the line of reasoning that just because you've seen it happen a few times, it's the rule, not the exception. That's inductive reasoning, and oftentimes inductive reasoning does not come up with a true conclusion. It's just too generalizing, when perhaps it does not happen as much as you seem to think it does.

 

That's like seeing a man or two who have been hit by lightning twice, and assuming that all people have been hit by lightning at least twice.

 

In any case, it seems you've actually gotten it backwards. Both the Do 17Z and Ju-88A, from bombers in the background of people's videos, to videos actually reviewing the Bombers, to my own experience,  almost always seem to go high. If they go low, time and again they get vaporized faster than you can say "epic fail."

 

I suspect this has to do with a number of factors: A, no bomb reticle at a certain altitude above the ground, B, abysmal survivability (that just got nerfed and made even worse), and C, defensive turrets good only for looking cool, not for actually shooting down tailers.


Edited by legoboy0401, 18 June 2018 - 04:31 PM.

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CorvusCorvax #45 Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:44 PM

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View Postlegoboy0401, on 18 June 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

 

That does ignore their abysmal defense and subpar survivability, and thus I wouldn't ever do it, at least not with the Ju-88A or Do 17Z. But it seems to me that you are arguing the line of reasoning that just because you've seen it happen a few times, it's the rule, not the exception. That's inductive reasoning, and oftentimes inductive reasoning does not come up with a true conclusion. It's just too generalizing, when perhaps it does not happen as much as you seem to think it does.

 

 

In logic, you actually have to address what a person is saying, not what you think they are thinking.

 

You don't understand what inductive reasoning is if you think that's what's going on here.

 

1.)  I never claimed it as a rule.  I even said, explicitly, that it was "possible".

 

2.)  If it is possible to do, then others could do it, if they tried.  

 

3.)  At no point did I even suggest that it was commonplace - that was your invention.  In logic circles, this is called a strawman argument.

 

Here is the end result - low-level bombing with German bombers is possible.  Successfully bombing at low level with German bombers is possible.  That you choose not to do it doesn't mean that it cannot be done, or done successfully, even in the absence of strong defensive guns.  Your refusal to alter your playstyle and/or demand from WG some "fix" ignores the possibilities that exist currently in-game.  How do you avoid the murderous flak at altitude?  Fly under it.  How do you get through caps fast without getting blown up?  Use that "boost" button, and don't let up until you're well away.  It works at T6 with the A-26, it works at T8 with the RB-17, and it even works at T4 with the Blenheim.  Speed to get past the defensive fighters.  Low altitude to avoid flak.  It really isn't that big of a conceptual difficulty, is it?



CorvusCorvax #46 Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:47 PM

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View PostEdward_Thache, on 18 June 2018 - 04:23 PM, said:

 

I haven't had much luck with the Ju88A or Do17 at low level but the Do217 is a beast on factories and such at Low level; 2 passes max while flying at over 500 kph, awesome!  Gear up for speed.

 

I've seen the 217 used more, but I think if you get both of those guys in a speed build, you have a shot.  Yes, the 217 takes factories in a flash, and takes garrisons almost as fast.

legoboy0401 #47 Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:48 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 18 June 2018 - 08:44 AM, said:

In logic, you actually have to address what a person is saying, not what you think they are thinking.

 

You don't understand what inductive reasoning is if you think that's what's going on here.

 

1.)  I never claimed it as a rule.  I even said, explicitly, that it was "possible".

 

2.)  If it is possible to do, then others could do it, if they tried.  

 

3.)  At no point did I even suggest that it was commonplace - that was your invention.  In logic circles, this is called a strawman argument.

 

Here is the end result - low-level bombing with German bombers is possible.  Successfully bombing at low level with German bombers is possible.  That you choose not to do it doesn't mean that it cannot be done, or done successfully, even in the absence of strong defensive guns.  Your refusal to alter your playstyle and/or demand from WG some "fix" ignores the possibilities that exist currently in-game.  How do you avoid the murderous flak at altitude?  Fly under it.  How do you get through caps fast without getting blown up?  Use that "boost" button, and don't let up until you're well away.  It works at T6 with the A-26, it works at T8 with the RB-17, and it even works at T4 with the Blenheim.  Speed to get past the defensive fighters.  Low altitude to avoid flak.  It really isn't that big of a conceptual difficulty, is it?

 

If that wasn't enough for you, Mr. 2.05 die-hard, the bugs kill 2.05. In that, even you should be able to agree.

 

edit: I think'll block you if you don't shape up to the fact 2.05 is hot garbage very soon.


Edited by legoboy0401, 18 June 2018 - 04:49 PM.

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Edward_Thache #48 Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:49 PM

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Zouga007 posted a clip on YouTube; judge for yourself...

 



CorvusCorvax #49 Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:53 PM

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View Postlegoboy0401, on 18 June 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

 

 

 

edit: I think'll block you if you don't shape up to the fact 2.05 is hot garbage very soon.

You do you, bro.

 

I'm not talking about any particular version in any case.  If you want to talk about bugs or whatever else, then you'll find I agree with you.  But your complaint about how bombers work is just plain silly.

 

Besides, you're rage-uninstalling the game anyway, so my observations on bomber playstyle don't even matter.



SlappedbyRommel #50 Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:53 PM

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View Postwscarter007, on 17 June 2018 - 03:18 AM, said:

This update infuriates me greatly, at first I was like OK let's give it a try.  Then the realization that they took away features of my plane just so I can grind or what they are hoping for is me to pay for it with real money to get them back really ticks me off.  I'm finding myself now finding it hard to log on anymore. And that is the worst part I really liked this game before this cash grab. 

 

I totally agree with my bud WsCarter I thought ok give this a try all but than all my planes stripped more time wasted in outfitting trying to remember what was on them. Ok I can deal with it but now finding out I need to win to salvage to create enhancements not fun but wait there's more calibrate ok now this is reminding me of World of warcraft blues, purples etc......wthWG?

 

So next I decided to buy a box to see what its all about finding that 1 box ($45) can nearly get 2 planes up to elite with calibration on 3rd level. So, why do I want to spend more to get what I had already? yes you can grind but I am a casual player not spending 24/7 playing online games again wthWG what were you thinking. I am not going to elite every plane nor grind for it absolutely nonsense but hey some will.

 

Sorry I see this as a huge jump in a cash grab and grind for things I already had plus the premium planes paid cash only to regrind for purchases already made very much a bait and switch.

 

Sorry WG I see myself playing less now and moving to another game as a bunch of HVAR folks have begun to do such as Armoured warfare etc. Why you did this is any ones guess I just see more players will be fed up and leave. Can you ever start listening to the player base I think you made a huge mistake thinking all will like this maybe the players who are at the top will like it but meh for me. Plus you need to fix the current bugs before releasing major patches you guys are really something WG.



legoboy0401 #51 Posted 18 June 2018 - 04:53 PM

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View PostEdward_Thache, on 18 June 2018 - 08:49 AM, said:

Zouga007 posted a clip on YouTube; judge for yourself...

 

 

Again, that's before 2.05. It's not relevant. That's like asking a dead butler to bring you your dinner. He should be able to bring your dinner for you, you reason. After all, he was able to bring it to you before, so there's no reason he shouldn't be able to bring it to you now.

An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

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#Givingupneveris


CorvusCorvax #52 Posted 18 June 2018 - 05:04 PM

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View PostEdward_Thache, on 18 June 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

Zouga007 posted a clip on YouTube; judge for yourself...

 

 

LOL, and it had more than one 217 doing it, too!  I think he could have bomb-trapped that Spit at the end, but hey.  :)

Edward_Thache #53 Posted 18 June 2018 - 05:07 PM

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You accused Cyberdog52 of trolling?  Who is trolling who?  It is relevant, you can't hear anyone from the loudness of your own trolling.  You are just sitting back waiting for someone to reply so that you can attempt to cut them down.  Nobody is asking or begging you to play.  You don't like it, uninstall.   :trollface:

 



legoboy0401 #54 Posted 18 June 2018 - 05:11 PM

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View PostEdward_Thache, on 18 June 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

You accused Cyberdog52 of trolling?  Who is trolling who?  It is relevant, you can't hear anyone from the loudness of your own trolling.  You are just sitting back waiting for someone to reply so that you can attempt to cut them down.  Nobody is asking or begging you to play.  You don't like it, uninstall.   :trollface:

 

 

Sorry, collateral damage. He was agreeing with the real trolls here, Zig and Prenzlau, and I felt I had to cut him down to show it was not okay to gang up on me.

 

He is smart though, now that I think about it. 

 

Btw, it's not like I could play anyways even if I didn't uninstall. My computer barely ran it before, and with the massive new buffs to lag(in other words, they made lag stronger/worse), and all the horrific new bugs that have also been introduced with 2.05 + the old ones, it's just too much for both my computer and my patience to handle.


Edited by legoboy0401, 18 June 2018 - 05:13 PM.

An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


LMG #55 Posted 18 June 2018 - 05:12 PM

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View Postlegoboy0401, on 18 June 2018 - 11:09 AM, said:

This little gem is from Vcharng, and in my opinion it completely proves my fear that bombers will suck now due to patch 2.05 a rational and sane fear to have.(bolding mine)

 

"After a day or two in the new system I can now understand why people are so pissed about it.

It's simple, because your once-invincible Zero and Spitfire is no longer so.

 

After 2.0.5 all LFs and MRs, at least up to mid-tier, can't even carry an engine restarter without getting the "specialist" thing, and would have to choose between a first aid and a fire extinguisher. Combined with the now-a-lot-cheaper universal rounds (from my memory, it went from about 30,000 credit per game to 6000 for mid-tier planes like the Me 410), this means that now HFs and certain HF-ish GAAs can either cripple your pilot forever, fry your engine till you crash, or burn you to your death, in just one pass (or, more realistically, disable you until they make their next pass and actually kill you).

And now a specialist Me 265 is going to have practically endless boost thanks to the new slot, so if you are flying a Spit or Zero or Ki, good luck trying to catch it and have fun being shredded into pieces by its turret.

 

I actually didn't have as much trouble with spitfires or zeroes before 2.0.5, the planes I flew for the most part could outrun them. Kind of why I even got the P-47B and the F4U-1 in the first place; to run away from anything I can't outturn (and part of why I went with the pseudo-tank build on my Thunderbolt, which I can't really afford now since I lose on roll rate)


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legoboy0401 #56 Posted 18 June 2018 - 05:16 PM

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View PostLMG, on 18 June 2018 - 09:12 AM, said:

 

I actually didn't have as much trouble with spitfires or zeroes before 2.0.5, the planes I flew for the most part could outrun them. Kind of why I even got the P-47B and the F4U-1 in the first place; to run away from anything I can't outturn (and part of why I went with the pseudo-tank build on my Thunderbolt, which I can't really afford now since I lose on roll rate)

 

Nor did I. My SE 100 ate 'em for breakfast and my XFL-1  enjoyed dogfighting them.

 

edit: the only thing I'm going to miss as much as my German Bombers is going to have to be the truly ridiculous SE-100. That 20 mm tail gun, oh my goodness. If the SE 100 shot Superman s from it's front 20s, it shot Batman s from the tail gun, punching little helpless small time criminals to death(translated into WoWP, those would be light fighters, which were mostly my target with my SE 100's rear gun) Oh, and it's sound, it's SOUND when it fired! It sounded like Batman going out and punching my pursuers to death. By comparison with it, everything else with gunners I've ever played(mind you, I didn't own the RB-17) shot Little Red Riding Hood s from their turrets and did piddly damage to my pursuers, doing exactly jack squat for my tactical situation and basically getting me shot down.


Edited by legoboy0401, 18 June 2018 - 05:33 PM.

An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris


Edward_Thache #57 Posted 18 June 2018 - 05:23 PM

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View Postlegoboy0401, on 18 June 2018 - 12:11 PM, said:

 

Btw, it's not like I could play anyways even if I didn't uninstall. My computer barely ran it before, and with the massive new buffs to lag(in other words, they made lag stronger/worse), and all the horrific new bugs that have also been introduced with 2.05 + the old ones, it's just too much for both my computer and my patience to handle.

 

I understand.  I have some clips from this weekend and this morning where I was shooting soft targets with a 50mm from my Ju88P and they either didn't blow or it took 5 seconds after I passed the target.  I can't tell you how many tall structures that I collided with because the should have blown and didn't.  I don't think that is a client side problem as much as a server side problem.  I think they might be having server farm issues.

 

Did anyone get the black screen of death during the game? 


Edited by Edward_Thache, 18 June 2018 - 05:25 PM.


LMG #58 Posted 18 June 2018 - 05:31 PM

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View PostEdward_Thache, on 18 June 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

 

I understand.  I have some clips from this weekend and this morning where I was shooting soft targets with a 50mm from my Ju88P and they either didn't blow or it took 5 seconds after I passed the target.  I can't tell you how many tall structures that I collided with because the should have blown and didn't.  I don't think that is a client side problem as much as a server side problem.  I think they might be having server farm issues.

 

Did anyone get the black screen of death during the game? 

 

I had a case where I shot down a Beaufighter and it didn't show him as dead until like 10 seconds later. I stopped shooting because I stopped hearing hitmarks as the plane slowly rolled around, and I had an I-210 hot on my six :ohmy:


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CorvusCorvax #59 Posted 18 June 2018 - 05:33 PM

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View PostEdward_Thache, on 18 June 2018 - 05:23 PM, said:

 

 I don't think that is a client side problem as much as a server side problem.  I think they might be having server farm issues.

 

 

^^^THIS

 

For sure there are some serious server-side issues.  I get rock-solid reported pings, with no spikes.  But the lag spikes in-game are obvious, and long.  I estimate some of them at 2 seconds.



legoboy0401 #60 Posted 18 June 2018 - 05:50 PM

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View PostCorvusCorvax, on 18 June 2018 - 09:33 AM, said:

^^^THIS

 

For sure there are some serious server-side issues.  I get rock-solid reported pings, with no spikes.  But the lag spikes in-game are obvious, and long.  I estimate some of them at 2 seconds.

 

At this rate I'd rather see the P2W garbage introduced in 2.05 go bye-bye in 2.07 rather then 2.06, just so 2.06 could be solely dedicated to bug fixes so that at least we could have a playable game that at least some could enjoy.

An average player with an average goal: greatness, someday. Today, mediocrity will have to suffice. But no matter, I will always play to the best of my ability, and I will always strive to make the best of my ability just that little bit stronger and better.

 

#Failureisalwaysanoption

 

#Givingupneveris





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