129 replies to this topic

[Prenzlau]

legoboy0401, on 15 June 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

 

Okay, you are smart. but this isn't the smartest way in which you've ever used your intelligence.

 

The meme that sums up my feelings toward you, would be the Cat In The Hat one. Yes, that one. The one that says, "You're not just wrong, you're stupid."

 

Because you are.

 

I thought people remembered that I was the bomber fanatic, in fact, I was in love with all things German bombers from the get-go. I never got to play the Do 217 M sadly, as a combination of real life, lousy computer performance, and other games competing for my attention got in the way of me finishing my JU-88A grind. But with that said, I wasn't too bad with either the Do-17Z(gorgeous plane IRL, even with the changed design when it became a bomber, and it retains that gorgeousness in game) or the Ju-88A. I really got a feel for their strengths and weaknesses. They were planes I really enjoyed and I kept the Do 17Z while I grinded the Ju-88A.

 

I don't understand why you think I'm not qualified to give my opinions on how the fate of German Bombers looks post-patch 2.05.

 

I don't mean you any disrespect. Any bomber pilot that has flown the German bombers that is worth their salt knows that your using "pea shooters" to defend against planes that have a great deal more firepower. Yes they are the only defense (other than the pilots flying skill) and yes sometimes you are able to whittle a light fighter down, chase them off or finish off a depleted heavy. Sure, they have their uses. When I think of survival in a German bomber I think of boost/speed, and engine protection, bomb accuracy (more so at higher altitudes and less at low altitudes) and integrity of the wings and tail so you can at least maneuver. I play all three German bombers differently and use different tactics for each. That said, the defensive guns are not going to protect you enough of the time, so you have to plan accordingly. Sometimes your just going to get caught exposed and get shot down, it happens. The idea is to take caps and influence the battle for your team as much as possible, despite the possibility of getting shot down multiple times. 

I'm sorry if you lost interest and had technical or technology problems to keep up and play the game. I can only comment on my perspective and how I see things. 

The "fate of German bombers" might actually be far brighter and more positive, post 2.0.5 patch for the customization and specialization will help in the areas that you can take advantage of the most. I have always looked at the German bombers as devastating weapons and I have learned to use them accordingly. I think things will only be better, but time will tell. 

To be fair I have read over your post a few times now, and I simply cannot agree with your assessment. I don't see bombers as "doomed" planes that are helpless and at the mercy of those who might attack. So I feel like the whole premise that you put forth is not accurate. 

 

Prenzlau

[mnbv_fockewulfe]

The whole point of the update was supposed to be this great customization thing that would let players make the parts of the plane they wanted to stronger *cough*cough*

[hamhockjones]

LOL, most pilots want to fly in their planes that perform great already and kill folks. Very simple !  Or bomb stuff and enjoy that. Very simple.. This site should have explained that after you add this new equipment , your plane will fly bad like it did before you earned all the top quality stuff that make it fly great ! Keeping this game simple is the answer. Reverting back to the first day you ever played is a big slap in the face! Your running off your best pilots with unnessasary  upgrades, when in fact these are downgrades !!  Just a little feedback,   HAM

[shirime]

Played for about 4 hours last night with 2.0.5 and I gotta say, it was pretty depressing. Was kinda struggling to stay motivated when staring at the grinding that would be ahead.

 

Now, part of my problem is that as of last night I have something like 125 planes in the hanger, and I like running a bunch of different planes, pretty normal to fly 10 different planes in a session. I liked that it was not too grindy to get any given plane through the upgrades and all there was difference-wise at that point was pilot skills. Now, the idea of having to grind fairly heavy on all of the ones I care about (which is still 15-20 planes) is pretty daunting. Felt envious of the folks who run only a handful of planes and were already well on their way in their favorites by end of night...

 

The whole "crafting" direction just seems weird, and feels, one day in, like a solution in search of a problem. Time will tell, of course, but it seems a bit lose-lose on first experience; either all the "specialist" and "enhancement/calibration" stuff really makes a significant difference in plane performance, in which case its going to be a "the strong get stronger" situation, which is not a great thing on several levels game-wise (new player acquisition/retention, motivation to run up lines, etc.), or it doesn't make that much of a difference, in which case, what's the point?

[legoboy0401]

Prenzlau, on 15 June 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

 

I don't mean you any disrespect. Any bomber pilot that has flown the German bombers that is worth their salt knows that your using "pea shooters" to defend against planes that have a great deal more firepower. Yes they are the only defense (other than the pilots flying skill) and yes sometimes you are able to whittle a light fighter down, chase them off or finish off a depleted heavy. Sure, they have their uses. When I think of survival in a German bomber I think of boost/speed, and engine protection, bomb accuracy (more so at higher altitudes and less at low altitudes) and integrity of the wings and tail so you can at least maneuver. I play all three German bombers differently and use different tactics for each. That said, the defensive guns are not going to protect you enough of the time, so you have to plan accordingly. Sometimes your just going to get caught exposed and get shot down, it happens. The idea is to take caps and influence the battle for your team as much as possible, despite the possibility of getting shot down multiple times. 

I'm sorry if you lost interest and had technical or technology problems to keep up and play the game. I can only comment on my perspective and how I see things. 

The "fate of German bombers" might actually be far brighter and more positive, post 2.0.5 patch for the customization and specialization will help in the areas that you can take advantage of the most. I have always looked at the German bombers as devastating weapons and I have learned to use them accordingly. I think things will only be better, but time will tell. 

To be fair I have read over your post a few times now, and I simply cannot agree with your assessment. I don't see bombers as "doomed" planes that are helpless and at the mercy of those who might attack. So I feel like the whole premise that you put forth is not accurate. 

 

Prenzlau

 

I notice the one thing I mentioned that you didn't cover was OP high-altitude AA. Might there be a reason for that? German Bombers don't have great HP pools, and anyway what hp pool they do have is quickly guzzled by even the smallest numbers of High-Altitude AA. Oh, and that was BEFORE they removed concealing livery and added it's already underpowered benefit to the "upgraded" "Super" version of another upgrade.Which means a mediocre(but an appreciated step in the right direction) defense against overpowered high-altitude AA is essentially locked behind an rng and real money/buttloads of hours of grinding paywall. Which just makes said OP high-altitude AA even more strong.

[Prenzlau]

legoboy0401, on 15 June 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

 

I notice the one thing I mentioned that you didn't cover was OP high-altitude AA. Might there be a reason for that? German Bombers don't have great HP pools, and anyway what hp pool they do have is quickly guzzled by even the smallest numbers of High-Altitude AA. Oh, and that was BEFORE they removed concealing livery and added it's already underpowered benefit to the "upgraded" "Super" version of another upgrade.Which means a mediocre(but an appreciated step in the right direction) defense against overpowered high-altitude AA is essentially locked behind an rng and real money/buttloads of hours of grinding paywall. Which just makes said OP high-altitude AA even more strong.

 

Yes it appears that the AA is stronger and more damaging to higher altitude planes. That said, don't fly in straight lines when not actively dropping your bombs. Zig-zagging your bomber will reduce the amount of AA damage and also fly out of the cap, circle and come back. I always fly the Do 217 M at tree top levels, this reduces the AA damage a great deal and it gives me the option to hide behind terrain like mountains and hills. Its about 50/50 with the Ju88a, I have been experimenting with some success flying that at ultra low altitudes as well. The Do 17 z seems destined to always be a high altitude bomber, but on any given day, you never know. If the AA is a little rough right now, I'm not worried. This game is all about adaption and learning new tactics and methods. Yet people are so inflexible and unwilling. Before anyone hits me with the evil WG money making schemes, I'm very much aware of most of the opinions out there. If you think about your entire adult life consists of money going from your bank or pocket and into someone else's. I pay to have internet, I pay to have netflix, I pay to have gas, clothes and food, etc. So this game is my entertainment, and is it so unreasonable that I pay to play this like I do everything else in my life? So they put forth their idea, their changes, their product, and I have two choices, play the game and adapt to it, or stop playing and spend my money (and time, lots of time) elsewhere. After only (1) day, I'm amazed at how many people KNOW that everything sucks. Amazing. 

If the game at times isn't torturing enough, these forums sure are!

 

Prenzlau

 

[Lvcivs_Flavivs]

Well.

 

Since Wowp was taken away (aka "upgraded" to 2.0)  I've been coming back periodically for a match or two to see if any of the magic could be restored.  

 

Having to re-grind every single plane does not sound like a good plan to me.

[legoboy0401]

Prenzlau, on 15 June 2018 - 11:30 AM, said:

 

Yes it appears that the AA is stronger and more damaging to higher altitude planes. That said, don't fly in straight lines when not actively dropping your bombs. Zig-zagging your bomber will reduce the amount of AA damage and also fly out of the cap, circle and come back. I always fly the Do 217 M at tree top levels, this reduces the AA damage a great deal and it gives me the option to hide behind terrain like mountains and hills. Its about 50/50 with the Ju88a, I have been experimenting with some success flying that at ultra low altitudes as well. The Do 17 z seems destined to always be a high altitude bomber, but on any given day, you never know. If the AA is a little rough right now, I'm not worried. This game is all about adaption and learning new tactics and methods. Yet people are so inflexible and unwilling. Before anyone hits me with the evil WG money making schemes, I'm very much aware of most of the opinions out there. If you think about your entire adult life consists of money going from your bank or pocket and into someone else's. I pay to have internet, I pay to have netflix, I pay to have gas, clothes and food, etc. So this game is my entertainment, and is it so unreasonable that I pay to play this like I do everything else in my life? So they put forth their idea, their changes, their product, and I have two choices, play the game and adapt to it, or stop playing and spend my money (and time, lots of time) elsewhere. After only (1) day, I'm amazed at how many people KNOW that everything sucks. Amazing. 

If the game at times isn't torturing enough, these forums sure are!

 

Prenzlau

 

 

I zigged and zagged like crazy always, but you can't do that when actively bombing(which usually takes anywhere from 15-30 seconds), and going out of the cap is sometimes not an option(especially if you are up really high to avoid enemy bomber-hunters). Also, most Bombers are supposed to be played at high-altitudes anyways, not low-level, so I feel my exclusively high-level bombing playstyle is justified on that account.

Lvcivs_Flavivs, on 15 June 2018 - 11:38 AM, said:

Well.

 

Since Wowp was taken away (aka "upgraded" to 2.0)  I've been coming back periodically for a match or two to see if any of the magic could be restored.  

 

Having to re-grind every single plane does not sound like a good plan to me.

 

Right you are. What worries me more, though, is having to basically re-grind planes that were pretty darn bad even fully tricked-out with the old equipment, pilot skills, and consumables.

[LMG]

legoboy0401, on 15 June 2018 - 02:40 PM, said:

Right you are. What worries me more, though, is having to basically re-grind planes that were pretty darn bad even fully tricked-out with the old equipment, pilot skills, and consumables.

 

Worst part is that you can't always fly those planes at max capacity. My Hs 129 B runs with bombs, not the big 37mm cannon, and from my understanding the Specialist configuration forces that 37mm cannon 

[Bobby_Tables]

Prenzlau, on 15 June 2018 - 01:30 PM, said:

 

After only (1) day, I'm amazed at how many people KNOW that everything sucks. Amazing. 

If the game at times isn't torturing enough, these forums sure are!

 

Prenzlau

 

 

I hear what you are saying and you seem like a pretty cool person to hang with in the game.  My negative reaction was more to the point of why would they spend precious development cycles on this particular area.  That is what mystifies me.  They did a great job with Attrition mode, less so with Invasion, but those were things that made people come into the game to play more.  

 

Maybe there was a great unspoken need to further tweak planes that I just missed over the years.  I know there have been a lot of forum posts over equipment loadouts and even spreadsheets about what to load on what plane.  So I guess maybe they saw that and said "Here's an opportunity to add to that loadout for the tweakers that love to tweak".  I guess I can see that.  On the other hand, it's going to take a spreadsheet guru and a lot of time to create something for this new loadout scheme.  

 

I just think there was a lot of other things they could have done to enhance the player base that are similar to Attrition mode like a bomber support mission or other types of missions/modes.  Personally, I am not that much of a tweaker and I like to play a variety of planes so the tasks associated with loading out these planes again is not something that adds to my in-game enjoyment. 

 

[Zigfreid]

Prenzlau, on 15 June 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:

I think the bomber appraisals are better left up to the players that actually play the bombers and have much more than a few sorties in them. We can talk all day about the German bombers and their turrets/defensive guns and it doesn't matter. I could fly any of the three German bombers without any defensive guns and come close to the stats/battles I have right now. They don't make or break whether the German bomber is effective or not. They are there and I use them, but they just are not that important compared to other aspects of the German bombers. 

I think the analysis from Legoboy0401 lacks perspective and experience and I disagree with most of the conclusions. Success flying the German bombers is mostly pilot skill and experience and far less objective technical aspects. In other words, it's the player/pilot and not the plane that matters.

 

Prenzlau

 

Legoboy lacks flight time or knowledge of what he fly's in game.

He's also quit when things did not go his way and blamed the game.

In damage to G/T and G/T destroyed i am #2 and #3 on this server.

I never quit and i do not cry in the forum, just suck it up and man up.

Remember you have to be smarter than the watermelon to eat it!

[Bobby_Tables]

Zigfreid, on 15 June 2018 - 08:46 PM, said:

 

Legoboy lacks flight time or knowledge of what he fly's in game.

He's also quit when things did not go his way and blamed the game.

In damage to G/T and G/T destroyed i am #2 and #3 on this server.

I never quit and i do not cry in the forum, just suck it up and man up.

Remember you have to be smarter than the watermelon to eat it!

 

Wow, Zig and Prenz are like:

 

[Crieghton_Abrams]

Yeah, I cannot agree more! It is worse than having to re buy what we had, because we cannot buy that CLEAN ENHANCMENT back! What I mean by this is that none of the equipment is a clean enhancement in that it is a POSITIVE ONLY enhancement for your aircraft. They all now take something from you even as they give you something, and you PAY for this crap!

 

Then you grind , grind, grind, spend, spend, spend , spend, and play slot machines with your earnings to get that enhancement at last clean with no neg modifiers. So in the end, you spend less time flying, more time grinding and yes above all spending alot more money to have less than what you you had to begin with! Go f**K yourselves Wargaming and check my account; I have over 60+ aircraft and spent alot of money on this game! Now you f**k me over like this? Won't be playing for long if this doesn't get fixed. A naked and very unsatisfying money grab! A lot of money spent on programming that does nothing to enhance my game experience, just an attempt to get into my wallet! A VERY dissatisfied consumer!

[legoboy0401]

Zigfreid, on 15 June 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

 

Legoboy lacks flight time or knowledge of what he fly's in game.

He's also quit when things did not go his way and blamed the game.

In damage to G/T and G/T destroyed i am #2 and #3 on this server.

I never quit and i do not cry in the forum, just suck it up and man up.

Remember you have to be smarter than the watermelon to eat it!

 

 

You guys are whiny baiters who pretend to be holy, perfect WoWP players, but you are not. You'd be hard pressed, in fact, to find a single post where I never explain myself. In this case you come across as self-righteous, holier-than-thou pricks. It's my opinion, of course, and you are fully welcome to dispute it or to flat-out disprove it.

 

Whatever you decide to do, could you at least come up with some better bait? None of what you say about me is true.

 

It's not necessary to have played a game a lot to understand it. In the case of Bombers, no, I do not have as much experience as some, but I have more experience than others. I played mostly high-level( for realism and to play to the strengths of German Bombers), so no, I can't really speak on the topic of low-level A26B gameplay(though I have seen it).

 

Oh, and Zig, I wouldn't be too proud of yourself. Remember that the population numbers of server WoWP NA could be visually represented by a spec of dust.

 

That you are near the top in stats means little when there is only a tiny pool of stats in general.

 

Regarding everything else, yeah, this patch is, for the most part, complete and utter garbage that practically no one asked for or wanted, especially not this implementation of it.

 

What the heck were they drinking when they drempt this up? It must have been a vodka high or something, because NO ONE, and I MEAN NO ONE wanted drawbacks to modules, let alone blanket nerfs to practically every plane in the game occuring as a result.

 

Oh yeah, and the consumables?

 

We were promised LESS gold spamming, not MORE!

 

 

And the way some of the new slots work on existing aircraft?

 

 

They BUFF THE WRONG ASPECTS and NERF what is ACTUALLY IMPORTANT FOR THAT AIRCRAFT!!! 

 

 

To conclude this, here is my reaction to this patch: 

 

[wscarter007]

This update infuriates me greatly, at first I was like OK let's give it a try.  Then the realization that they took away features of my plane just so I can grind or what they are hoping for is me to pay for it with real money to get them back really ticks me off.  I'm finding myself now finding it hard to log on anymore. And that is the worst part I really liked this game before this cash grab. 

[crzyhawk]

what the heck is this crap?  Who thought it was a great idea to gut my planes?

[soshootmenow]

Lvcivs_Flavivs, on 15 June 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

Well.

 

Since Wowp was taken away (aka "upgraded" to 2.0)  I've been coming back periodically for a match or two to see if any of the magic could be restored. 

 

Having to re-grind every single plane does not sound like a good plan to me.

 

After reading that all of the capabilities I had worked so hard to get for so long on so many of my birds has now been wiped out without any compensation......omfg.

I used to play 1.9 with my Clan for hours every night. More on the weekends. After 2.0....it nosedived. Now I do 1 or 2 battles (maybe) every couple of weeks just to see if there are any changes.

Reading these comments....I don't even want to log on to look at what has been done.

Almost no one in my or the other Clans is playing anymore. Same for all of the other players I know. No one on from my friends list.

And now they have wiped out my stuff on top of that.

I REALLY do not feel like grinding to put all that back on and now not even get close to the same results.

For anyone who is interested in trying to promote a possible alternative, please see my thread Two Mode Game Suggestion.....(Again) and let me know if anyone has any ideas how to refine it or get WG to implement it.

[Cyberdog52]

Bobby_Tables, on 16 June 2018 - 03:19 AM, said:

 

Wow, Zig and Prenz are like:

 

 

 

You got that right.  I don't think you will ever find anyone in the game who studies it more than Prenzlau.  He will try everything and knows what works by the success that it comes from it.  He is a great student and teacher who knows the elements of success and can execute them.  Every sortie presents its own set of unique interactions and he reacts to them better than most players.  WG can change the environment but players like him adapt.  I complain about the Bots and how they can determine the outcome of a match but Prenzlau is more capable than many of us at carrying a game despite the bots.  Isn't it in martial arts that you use your opponent's actions to defeat him? 

 

I have seen the Z&PDC in action and all I can say is WG don't introduce Heavy Bombers!

 

Oh and one more thing;

 

 "I played mostly high-level( for realism and to play to the strengths of German Bombers)"

 

I thought that Germany converted most of its medium bombers to dive bombers because it was a more accurate method of bombing with low numbers.  I think the HE111 is the only med that didn't dive bomb.  If you want realism, you are looking for IL-2 Sturmovik or Cliffs of Dover.  WG emphatically states that WoWP is an arcade game.

[legoboy0401]

Cyberdog52, on 18 June 2018 - 05:42 AM, said:

 

You got that right.  I don't think you will ever find anyone in the game who studies it more than Prenzlau.  He will try everything and knows what works by the success that it comes from it.  He is a great student and teacher who knows the elements of success and can execute them.  Every sortie presents its own set of unique interactions and he reacts to them better than most players.  WG can change the environment but players like him adapt.  I complain about the Bots and how they can determine the outcome of a match but Prenzlau is more capable than many of us at carrying a game despite the bots.  Isn't it in martial arts that you use your opponent's actions to defeat him? 

 

I have seen the Z&PDC in action and all I can say is WG don't introduce Heavy Bombers!

 

Oh and one more thing;

 

 "I played mostly high-level( for realism and to play to the strengths of German Bombers)"

 

I thought that Germany converted most of its medium bombers to dive bombers because it was a more accurate method of bombing with low numbers.  I think the HE111 is the only med that didn't dive bomb.  If you want realism, you are looking for IL-2 Sturmovik or Cliffs of Dover.  WG emphatically states that WoWP is an arcade game.

 

Put simply, Prenzlau is a good guy with actual competence, even if he only uses it to beat up people with slightly less knowledge about the game, and Zig is a self-righteous prick. I don't imagine he is ACTUALLY a pro( though he markets himself as one), as he seems to be one who believes patches 2.0+ are the devil incarnate,  patch 1.9 was sent from heaven, and thus the only good reason to stick around is to troll people on the forum.

 

Oh, and you yourself. Scram, dude. Get lost. German Bombers suck at low-level thanks to their horrible defenses which make them nothing short of cannon fodder/easy xp and credits for enemy planes. Oh, and why am I telling you this anyway? You probably already knew it, and were just trying to troll. 

 

[CorvusCorvax]

soshootmenow, on 18 June 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

 

 

For anyone who is interested in trying to promote a possible alternative, please see my thread Two Mode Game Suggestion.....(Again) and let me know if anyone has any ideas how to refine it or get WG to implement it.

 

With all the time that has been spent discussing it, I think the implementation ideas would have already been presented.

 

Write your own game, because WG doesn't appear to care about any sort of 1.x gameplay.