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Unreasonable matchups


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Toiletduck #1 Posted 22 May 2018 - 12:16 PM

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I was just in a match where myself and another player in T6 ground attack planes (IL2's) were matched up against two T7 grouped players in fighters (109g's).

 

Considering that the rest of the team is made up of bots, this is a wholly unfair matchup.   We stood no chance at all.. they just murdered us each time we spawned. The end.  

 

I can kinda forgive the type mismatch, but the type mismatch + tier mismatch considering that the rest of the team is made up of dumb bots... Come on.. that's not right.. 

 

Thoughts?


 

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trikke #2 Posted 22 May 2018 - 12:28 PM

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it happens...  roll of the dice, that's all

 

RL battles were almost always mismatches 


Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore

Toiletduck #3 Posted 22 May 2018 - 12:29 PM

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View Posttrikke, on 22 May 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

RL battles were almost always mismatches 

 

Well sure, but this isn't a real life simulator.  If it was, I'd not say a thing.  This is  supposed to be an arcade game.. =)

 

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Worland #4 Posted 22 May 2018 - 12:59 PM

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I think this has been an issue on all Wargaming titles forever. One team ends up with platoons while the other is nothing but solo players. Worse when it's a total mismatch of class of vehicle.

The only consolation is that so many flights in Warplanes are made up of really bad players... at least where I've been playing in tiers 2-5.

clodhoppr #5 Posted 22 May 2018 - 01:06 PM

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At times I am overly critical, and highly suspicious, of this game's mechanics and programming. Heads and above the most frustrating component is the MM (besides the glitches, game crashes, senseless battle strategies, terrible bots, etc.). Toiletduck I can totally relate to your irritation regarding the match-up you explained above. However, considering the lack of humans that play this game populating battles evenly HAS to be challenging. I am assuming the two T7 fighters were flighted together? If that is the case than the MM was hunting for two other human players in cache and Ta DA! you two GAs were it... The rest is history. 

Its not unusual, especially in higher tiers, that I go into a battle being the only human against a flight team of other humans, AND my bots generally suck. Boy! those are fun matches....:angry: Why can't the MM provide me with better bots when clearly I am outnumbered and overpowered?

In my ignorant opinion, Wargamming needs to do figure our how to make this game attractive again AND keep players interest.



pyantoryng #6 Posted 22 May 2018 - 01:27 PM

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View PostWorland, on 22 May 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

I think this has been an issue on all Wargaming titles forever. One team ends up with platoons while the other is nothing but solo players. Worse when it's a total mismatch of class of vehicle.

The only consolation is that so many flights in Warplanes are made up of really bad players... at least where I've been playing in tiers 2-5.

 

Right...Just another day in WG's crazy world...

WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
I am deaf, silent, and fly with unrealistic controls. Do not count on me to carry - my back's already broken from overweight.

FluffyPabu #7 Posted 22 May 2018 - 02:05 PM

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please don't talk about me and my mate here :trollface:

The_Wild_Weasel #8 Posted 22 May 2018 - 04:20 PM

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We have all had those games , mind you we tend not to complain when the odds are reversed, so the choices are a) Fight like hell, you never know b) drop game...., but this is kind of defeatest.

 

I try to just roll with the matchups, but for sure it can be a pain sometimes.

 

W_W



Ace_BOTlistic_Cosmo #9 Posted 22 May 2018 - 04:40 PM

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well... if the eight people who have commented here (in this thread, alone)...

had just decided to play the stupid strategy (that's a non strategy) flailing game,

.

instead of this (the funner, more cooler WoWPs Forum Edition) game,

.

well...

we'd have (in theory and maybe reality) doubled the population in tier IV

so I blame the lack of consistent players and base on the competing game:

 

World of WarPlanes Forum Edition™

2PointAdNauseam™

(aka WoWPFE™2PAN™)

GeTIn ThEGaMe!!!

obviously they can't run a competing game alongside 2.0 or it will dilute the player base...

hehe, yeah... that's the ticket

 

:facepalm:

 

 

 


if the pilot's good, see, I mean, if he's really..sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low [he spreads his arms like wings and laughs],

you oughtta see it sometime, it's a sight. A big plane like a '52. VRROOM! There's jet exhaust, fryin' chickens in the barnyard.


Prenzlau #10 Posted 22 May 2018 - 06:31 PM

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 I looked and found an interesting post in World Of Tanks forum that might shed some light on the match making, assuming that the mechanism behind tanks and warplanes (might be) similar. 

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/500199-dynamic-match-making-mm-random-number-generator-rng/

 

What do you guys think of this?

 

Prenzlau

 

 


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LMG #11 Posted 22 May 2018 - 06:42 PM

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View PostPrenzlau, on 22 May 2018 - 01:31 PM, said:

 I looked and found an interesting post in World Of Tanks forum that might shed some light on the match making, assuming that the mechanism behind tanks and warplanes (might be) similar. 

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/500199-dynamic-match-making-mm-random-number-generator-rng/

 

What do you guys think of this?

 

Prenzlau

 

Considering that WoWP's Matchmaker has to work under different variables (lower player count, bots on both teams, only 2 plane tiers per battle), I'm not sure if they'd even give it something like that. Maybe if we get a stable population we'd start to see this :sceptic:


This is my IL-2 (t). There are many like it, but this one is mine. :child:

SonicPariah #12 Posted 22 May 2018 - 08:09 PM

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View PostLMG, on 22 May 2018 - 06:42 PM, said:

 

Considering that WoWP's Matchmaker has to work under different variables (lower player count, bots on both teams, only 2 plane tiers per battle), I'm not sure if they'd even give it something like that. Maybe if we get a stable population we'd start to see this :sceptic:

 

Very similar mechanics, but you are correct that they cannot, by definition, be the same due to our different criteria.

mnbv_fockewulfe #13 Posted 22 May 2018 - 08:29 PM

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I actually believe that skewed match ups are a way to balance out "OP" aircraft. If a particular aircraft is easier to win in make the ability for the player to win harder by skewing the odds.

Be sure to check your logic privileges before posting on the forum.

 

mnbv_fockewulfe.png


 


Ace_BOTlistic_Cosmo #14 Posted 22 May 2018 - 08:37 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 22 May 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

I actually believe that skewed match ups are a way to balance out "OP" aircraft. If a particular aircraft is easier to win in make the ability for the player to win harder by skewing the odds.

 

agreed.... to handicap them maybe you could cause OP planes and pilots to have lower framerate or random crash to desktop

if the pilot's good, see, I mean, if he's really..sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low [he spreads his arms like wings and laughs],

you oughtta see it sometime, it's a sight. A big plane like a '52. VRROOM! There's jet exhaust, fryin' chickens in the barnyard.


mnbv_fockewulfe #15 Posted 22 May 2018 - 08:57 PM

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View PostAce_BOTlistic_Cosmo, on 22 May 2018 - 08:37 PM, said:

 

agreed.... to handicap them maybe you could cause OP planes and pilots to have lower framerate or random crash to desktop

 

seems to me to be working.:trollface:

Be sure to check your logic privileges before posting on the forum.

 

mnbv_fockewulfe.png


 


Perrigrino #16 Posted 23 May 2018 - 10:57 AM

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View PostSonicPariah, on 22 May 2018 - 08:09 PM, said:

 

Very similar mechanics, but you are correct that they cannot, by definition, be the same due to our different criteria.

 

Quoted from OP started by Komunist in WoT Forum (which Prenzlau kindly provided): "such parameters as damage, penetration, module damage, setting on/catching fire, etc." Even back in 1.X Eugene Pugh posted in the Developer's Blog about Match Maker (MM). He insisted that MM was based solely on Class and Tier, but (!) also allowed for KARMA, which, according to the Dev Blog, (the post is till there I believe) considers a Human Pilots losing streak and makes adjustment in subsequent matches. Therefore, it would appear that WoWP MM also factors into the algorithm called the Random Number Generator (RNG) the pilots wins and loses, which goes beyond simply Tierz and Class. WoWP Devs said MM involves only Tiers and Class and sometimes KARMA and seem to have left out the part about players profiles.

 

From following links to Wargaming's Patents: (from Komunist's Post) :

https://patents.goog...n?q=A63F13/795  :

"The server may automatically match the new player with a team of one or more other players based on a player profile associated with the new player and player profiles associated with the one or more other players. The new players profile may include a style identifier related to a particular style of game play determined from one or more statistics in the new player's profile. Each of the one or more other players' profiles may also include style identifiers related to particular style of game play determined from one or more statistics in the one or more other players profiles. The system may match the new player with the team of one or more other players, e.g., by balancing the new player's particular style of play and the styles of play associated with the one or more other players." (Patent actually belongs to Sony Interactive Entertainment, but is referenced in Wargaming's Patent).

 

The RNG algorithm attempts to make the Matches as random as possible and the damage done as random as possible, like rolling a dice- randomness/lucky/notsolucky to a point, AND it may factor in human pilots profiles. So looks like Wargaming may use the same mechanics and criteria for all it's games, though possibly to varying degrees(?), for example, like where battles don't include Bots. But as far as giving and receiving damage- RNG is involved. (Question is how much? ever wonder why at certain angles the plane shooting at you should not be able to land a hit at that impossible angle but does anyway?).

 

In V 2.0 it seems/appears​ as though something has changed in the RNG of MM and Bots to make matches favourable (%win/loss) for players at different times (perhaps even skill levels?) and bots to be more aggressive and focused on certain human pilots. imho. The change in RNG %  manifests itself as bots appear to be more aggressive on humans, but only "play fight" with one another. Perhaps it's because there are more Bots than before? They even seem to gang up like never seen before. Veteran pilots have seen this, and one can see a huge difference in bot behaviour going from say WoWS Co-op to here, two places where bot's are prevalent in Wargaming (Not sure of other titles). The Bots in WoWS are sheep compared to the billy goats of WoWP. And the higher up the Tearz, those goats turn into bearss :)

 

​Having said that, KARMA still works. so ToiletDuck, do not despair, just take a deep breath and hit the Battle button again with the same plane, immediately after that loss. And if you get another loss try again. KARMA,  should kick in at some point and you will notice that you are now  in battle with your T6 GAA and almost all other planes are T5. Now you just have to deal with the Bot RNG (ability to do damage to humans). good luck.

 

 

 


Edited by Perrigrino, 23 May 2018 - 12:30 PM.


Perrigrino #17 Posted 23 May 2018 - 12:28 PM

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see the Detailed Description section of the Wargaming Patent :

 

https://patents.goog...atent/US8425330 ( the levels mentioned deal with difficulty and are not Tiers but subgroups within Tiers- see the Table 1) :

 

The network environment of FIG. 1 may also associate with one or more matchmaking servers 106. As used herein, a matchmaking server 106 may determine what set of players to assign to a same instance of the virtual world to ensure that all players meet predefined criteria for that instance of the virtual world. That is, if extremely experienced players are paired with complete novices, the experienced players may quickly become bored, while the novice players may quickly become frustrated, causing each of them to stop playing the game altogether. Thus, the matchmaking server(s) 106 determine how to assign players to an instance of a virtual world so that every player is challenged, without getting frustrated. Specific algorithms and techniques used for matchmaking are described in more detail below....

 

...As players research and purchase more advanced technologies, those players advance in skill and ability, which also affects how those players should be matched against other players in the game by matchmaking server 106....

 

...By putting players into battles of varying level, the players experience a variety of game play while experiencing both wins and losses. According to one aspect, a player may be placed randomly or sequentially in any suitable battle level. However, according to another aspect, players who have just acquired a new higher tier vehicle are encouraged by being placed into battle sessions near the lower boundary of that vehicle's accessibility range, which allows the player feel more comfortable in the game. With time, the balancing system starts putting them into higher levels battle sessions, which creates a challenge of playing with more upgraded opponent vehicles.

 

​...According to an aspect, the average level of difficulty in each battle can be adjusted by changing the bounds of access ranges for specified vehicles types ...

 

...Using battle levels as described herein, matchmaking servers can assign players to sessions to provide players with varied gaming experiences without frustrating or boring the player. Battle sessions are balanced while the difficulty levels of the battle session for each player are controlled....


Edited by Perrigrino, 23 May 2018 - 01:10 PM.


trikke #18 Posted 23 May 2018 - 12:31 PM

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View PostWorland, on 22 May 2018 - 07:59 AM, said:

I think this has been an issue on all Wargaming titles forever. One team ends up with platoons while the other is nothing but solo players. Worse when it's a total mismatch of class of vehicle.
The only consolation is that so many flights in Warplanes are made up of really bad players... at least where I've been playing in tiers 2-5.

 

i'll admit that i've recently been flighted up, uptiered and fighting against a lone human... and lost

 

but i'll also admit that the same conditions, it's almost always an no-sweat insta-win 


Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore

Perrigrino #19 Posted 23 May 2018 - 10:51 PM

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I didn't have a chance to read Komunist's Thread in it's entirety until this morning, since I was busy reading various gaming patents that are used/shared throughout the industry. These patents are an important/critical design element of the gaming industry world wide.  The rationale of the design objectives is quite the eye opener: 

 

The network environment of FIG. 1 may also associate with one or more matchmaking servers 106. As used herein, a matchmaking server 106 may determine what set of players to assign to a same instance of the virtual world to ensure that all players meet predefined criteria for that instance of the virtual world. That is, if extremely experienced players are paired with complete novices, the experienced players may quickly become bored, while the novice players may quickly become frustrated, causing each of them to stop playing the game altogether. Thus, the matchmaking server(s) 106 determine how to assign players to an instance of a virtual world so that every player is challenged, without getting frustrated.

 

One thing that some of his critics missed was the FACT that difficulty levels and Tiers are not synonymous. Wargaming has a subset of levels within the Tiers and places players into those different levels depending on what win/loss rate and other pre-defined criteria- some of which is referenced. It is doing this based on the formula provided, but it does not necessarily guarantee an outcome. This is not an easy task and the algorithm does perform as expected to a greater or lesser degree, depending on how particular players are performing. -Shadora's (see his post on Komunist's thread) statistical analysis provides some insight. Would have been nice to see his 3rd batch of data.

 

One of the compelling argument's is provided in the patent when it goes onto explain how it designates a difficulty level for 1st time players of particular vehicles. Which explains why when one purchases a premium, the 1st battle in that vehicle is typically "easy", and get subsequently harder. The MM not only looks at win rate, number of battles, but also what is loaded on the vehicle and which modules. Given that in tanks, for example, match ups can have 15 v15, in regions all over the world, this is a huge and complex operation, that has been reduced to an algorithm. How else to try and achieve a modicum of fairness, especially given our differences in skills, talents, abilities and disabilities.

 

The question remains how the RNG affects the way in which "all players meet the predefined criteria for that instance of the virtual world"?



Bobby_Tables #20 Posted 23 May 2018 - 11:23 PM

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Good God, I needed to navigate to https://www.reddit.com/r/aww/ after reading this.  Patents?  my oh my, lookit that cute doge!

Edited by Bobby_Tables, 23 May 2018 - 11:24 PM.





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