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A Seemingly Unlikely line: American GAAs!

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NovaTempest #1 Posted 14 April 2018 - 11:39 PM

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So with a little digging around, I have scrounged up what I feel is enough information to construct a nearly complete if not full American Ground Attack Craft line. So Without Further ado i will get to the list:


Tier II: Curtiss A-8 "Shrike"

NOTE: This plane would be able to research and mount the Pratt & Whitney R-1690-9 radial engine, which would make it represent its immediate successor, the A-12 Shrike. This plane stock would have a water-cooled engine.

 

Armament: Four forward-firing (7.62 mm) machine guns were mounted in the wheel fairings, and an additional weapon of the same caliber was fitted in the observer's cockpit for rear defense. The standard bomb load was four 100 lb (45 kg) bombs.


Tier III: A-18 "Shrike II"

Armament:

  • 4 × forward-firing .30 in (7.62 mm) machine guns
  • 1 × aft-firing .30 in (7.62 mm) machine gun
  • 400 lb (181 kg) bombs in two wing bays
  • 200 lb (91 kg) bombs or chemical smoke tanks underwing.

Tier IV: Stearman XA-21

Armament:

  •  4 x 7.7 mm machine guns in outer wings with 750 rpg, 1 × 7.7 mm machine gun in dorsal and ventral step positions each with 5 x 97-round magazines
  • Bombs: 2,000 lb (907 kg) internally; (Usually 4 x 500 lb (227 kg) bombs)

Tier V: A-20A Havoc

NOTE: Will likely be the largest plane in this proposed line, as up to this point (starting from Tier III) American Aviation strategy had conceived GAA's as "light bombers". Optionally, this aircraft can have the option of receiving the A-20G airframe, adding six forward machine guns.

Armament

  • Guns:
    • 6× fixed forward firing 0.5 in (12.7 mm) guns in the nose [In the early A-20Gs, four of these were 20mm Hispanos]
    • 2× 0.5 in (12.7 mm) Browning machine guns in dorsal turret
    • 1x flexible 0.5 in (12.7 mm) Browning machine gun, mounted behind bomb bay
  • Bombs: up to 4,000 lb (1,800 kg)
  • Rockets: 12x M8 4.5" Rockets

Alternative Plane for this tier: SBD Dauntless


Tier VI: Martin AM Mauler

Armament

  • Guns: 4 × 20 mm T-31 cannon
  • Hardpoints: 15  [Devs can get creative with potential bomb payloads]
  • Rockets: 12 × 5" HVAR

Tier VII: Beechcraft XA-38 Grizzly (Provided by Jack_wdw)

Armament

  • Guns:
    • 1 × T15E1 75 mm cannon (20 rounds)
    • 6 × 50 caliber (12.7 mm) M2 Browning machine guns (2 forward-facing, 2 in ventral turret, 2 in dorsal turret)

Alternative Plane for this tier (or as a possible Premium): Kaiser-Fleetwings XBTK


Tier VIII: Douglas A-1 Skyraider

NOTE: This aircraft is placed 2 tiers higher than the Mauler despite the latter's complexity due to extent of service and huge number of armament configurations it saw across all variants.

  • Guns: 4 × 20 mm AN/M3 autocannons
  • Hardpoints: 15 external hardpoints with a capacity of 8,000 lb (3,600 kg) and provisions to carry combinations of:
    • Other: bombs, torpedoes, mine dispensers, unguided rockets, and gun pods.

Alternate option for this tier: XA-42 (Provided by Jack_wdw)


 Tier IX: Douglas XB-43 (provided by Jack_wdw as 'XA-43')

  • Guns:
    • 2 × 0.50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns in a remotely operated tail mount, never installed.
    • Planned attack variant: 8 × 0.50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns in solid nose
  • Bombs: 8,000 lb (3,629 kg)

Tier X: Martin XB-51 (provided by Jack_wdw)

Armament

  • Guns: 8 × 20 mm M24 cannon (0.79 in)
  • Rockets: 8 × High Velocity Aerial Rockets (HVAR) or
  • Bombs: Up to 10,400 lb (4,720 kg) carried internally

What do you guys think? Mostly Doable?

 

EDIT: Thanks to Jack_wdw for providing a few more fitting planes, i've marked which ones he brought up.


Edited by NovaTempest, 15 April 2018 - 04:54 PM.


Ace_BOTlistic_Cosmo #2 Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:28 AM

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View PostNovaTempest, on 14 April 2018 - 06:39 PM, said:

So with a little digging around, I have scrounged up what I feel is enough information to construct a nearly complete if not full American Ground Attack Craft line. So Without Further ado i will get to the list:


Tier II: Curtiss A-8 "Shrike"

NOTE: This plane would be able to research and mount the Pratt & Whitney R-1690-9 radial engine, which would make it represent its immediate successor, the A-12 Shrike. This plane stock would have a water-cooled engine.

 

Armament: Four forward-firing (7.62 mm) machine guns were mounted in the wheel fairings, and an additional weapon of the same caliber was fitted in the observer's cockpit for rear defense. The standard bomb load was four 100 lb (45 kg) bombs.


Tier III: A-18 "Shrike II"

Armament:

  • 4 × forward-firing .30 in (7.62 mm) machine guns
  • 1 × aft-firing .30 in (7.62 mm) machine gun
  • 400 lb (181 kg) bombs in two wing bays
  • 200 lb (91 kg) bombs or chemical smoke tanks underwing.

Tier IV: Stearman XA-21

Armament:

  •  4 x 7.7 mm machine guns in outer wings with 750 rpg, 1 × 7.7 mm machine gun in dorsal and ventral step positions each with 5 x 97-round magazines
  • Bombs: 2,000 lb (907 kg) internally; (Usually 4 x 500 lb (227 kg) bombs)

Tier V: A-20A Havoc

NOTE: Will likely be the largest plane in this proposed line, as up to this point (starting from Tier III) American Aviation strategy had conceived GAA's as "light bombers". Optionally, this aircraft can have the option of receiving the A-20G airframe, adding six forward machine guns.

Armament

  • Guns:
    • 6× fixed forward firing 0.5 in (12.7 mm) guns in the nose [In the early A-20Gs, four of these were 20mm Hispanos]
    • 2× 0.5 in (12.7 mm) Browning machine guns in dorsal turret
    • 1x flexible 0.5 in (12.7 mm) Browning machine gun, mounted behind bomb bay
  • Bombs: up to 4,000 lb (1,800 kg)
  • Rockets: 12x M8 4.5" Rockets

Alternative Plane for this tier: SBD Dauntless


Tier VI: Martin AM Mauler

Armament

  • Guns: 4 × 20 mm T-31 cannon
  • Hardpoints: 15  [Devs can get creative with potential bomb payloads]
  • Rockets: 12 × 5" HVAR

Tier VII: Grumman AF Guardian

Armament

  • Rockets: 6× 5 in (127 mm) unguided High velocity aircraft rocket (HVAR) rockets
  • Bombs: 4,000 lb (1,814 kg) of bombs, torpedoes, and depth charges.

NOTE: NO GUN ARMAMENT LISTED.

Alternative Plane for this tier: Kaiser-Fleetwings XBTK


Tier VIII: Douglas A-1 Skyraider

NOTE: This aircraft is placed 2 tiers higher than the Mauler despite the latter's complexity due to extent of service and huge number of armament configurations it saw across all variants.

  • Guns: 4 × 20 mm AN/M3 autocannons
  • Hardpoints: 15 external hardpoints with a capacity of 8,000 lb (3,600 kg) and provisions to carry combinations of:
    • Other: bombs, torpedoes, mine dispensers, unguided rockets, and gun pods.

 Tier IX: Douglas A-4A Skyhawk

Guns: 2× 20 mm (0.79 in) Colt Mk 12 cannon

Hardpoints: 4× under-wing & 1× under-fuselage pylon stations holding up to 9,900 lb (4,490 kg) of payload


Tier X: F-100A Super Sabre

Armament:

Guns: 4× 20 mm (0.787 in) Pontiac M39A1 revolver cannon

Missiles: ** 4× AIM-9 Sidewinder or

  • 2× AGM-12 Bullpup or
  • 2× or 4× LAU-3/A 2.75" unguided rocket dispenser [Possibly?]

What do you guys think? Mostly Doable?

 

of course I like it... 

doable... well, yeah

but...keep the game from crashing before you garnish with a maraschino cherry 

 


if the pilot's good, see, I mean, if he's really..sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low [he spreads his arms like wings and laughs],

you oughtta see it sometime, it's a sight. A big plane like a '52. VRROOM! There's jet exhaust, fryin' chickens in the barnyard.


ExploratorOne #3 Posted 15 April 2018 - 02:23 AM

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The A-20 Havoc/Boston was the precursor to the A-26B (my favorite plane in WOWP.)  I use the A-26b as a GAA.  Really hope the Skyraider makes its way into the game.

Edited by ExploratorOne, 15 April 2018 - 02:30 AM.


LMG #4 Posted 15 April 2018 - 06:45 AM

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That no-gun GAA at tier VII could prove troublesome when it comes to AA and other planes, like german bombers
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hoom #5 Posted 15 April 2018 - 07:35 AM

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I'm troubled at the prospect of the notoriously nimble Skyhawk being saddled with the lumbering flight characteristics of a GA :(

On the other hand I do believe it saw service predominantly heavily loaded with bombs where the agility would have been severely diminished so maybe its actually quite fitting.

Its a bit too recent for the game though isn't it?


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hawkeyededic #6 Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:42 PM

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View Posthoom, on 15 April 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

I'm troubled at the prospect of the notoriously nimble Skyhawk being saddled with the lumbering flight characteristics of a GA :(

On the other hand I do believe it saw service predominantly heavily loaded with bombs where the agility would have been severely diminished so maybe its actually quite fitting.

Its a bit too recent for the game though isn't it?

 

First flight in 1954 entered service in 1956, borderline for a T-10 definitely too new for T-9.

 



 

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FIight #7 Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:59 PM

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F-100 is already supersonic, and skyhawk is too advanced for even a t10.

Either way, they feel more like multiroles than pure GAAs



jack_wdw #8 Posted 15 April 2018 - 01:22 PM

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My US GAA tree would be the following:

Tier I: /
Tier II: Curtiss A-8
Tier III: Curtis  A-12
Tier IV: Curtiss A-18 Shrike II
Tier V: Douglas A-20G havoc
Tier VI: Douglas A-26 Invader
Tier VII: Beechcraft XA-38 Grizzly
Tier VIII: Douglas XA-42 (armed with 12x0.50 cal nose +2 wingmounted 0.50cals +2 defensive 0.50 cals  or 1 75MM cannon in nose + 2 wingmounted 0.50 cals + 2defensive 0.50 cals) + bombs&rockets
Tier IX: Douglas XA-43 same armament options as XA-42 + bigger payload
Tier X: Martin XA-45 or the XB-51 (which is actually more or less the american version of the German TierX GAA)



trikke #9 Posted 15 April 2018 - 02:02 PM

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View Postjack_wdw, on 15 April 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

My US GAA tree would be the following:

Tier I: /
Tier II: Curtiss A-8
Tier III: Curtis  A-12
Tier IV: Curtiss A-18 Shrike II
Tier V: Douglas A-20G havoc
Tier VI: Douglas A-26 Invader
Tier VII: Beechcraft XA-38 Grizzly
Tier VIII: Douglas XA-42 (armed with 12x0.50 cal nose +2 wingmounted 0.50cals +2 defensive 0.50 cals  or 1 75MM cannon in nose + 2 wingmounted 0.50 cals + 2defensive 0.50 cals) + bombs&rockets
Tier IX: Douglas XA-43 same armament options as XA-42 + bigger payload
Tier X: Martin XA-45 or the XB-51 (which is actually more or less the american version of the German TierX GAA)

 

i love this tree!
Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore

NovaTempest #10 Posted 15 April 2018 - 04:41 PM

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View Postjack_wdw, on 15 April 2018 - 01:22 PM, said:

My US GAA tree would be the following:

Tier I: /
Tier II: Curtiss A-8
Tier III: Curtis  A-12
Tier IV: Curtiss A-18 Shrike II
Tier V: Douglas A-20G havoc
Tier VI: Douglas A-26 Invader
Tier VII: Beechcraft XA-38 Grizzly
Tier VIII: Douglas XA-42 (armed with 12x0.50 cal nose +2 wingmounted 0.50cals +2 defensive 0.50 cals  or 1 75MM cannon in nose + 2 wingmounted 0.50 cals + 2defensive 0.50 cals) + bombs&rockets
Tier IX: Douglas XA-43 same armament options as XA-42 + bigger payload
Tier X: Martin XA-45 or the XB-51 (which is actually more or less the american version of the German TierX GAA)

 

I honestly was scrounging around for a tier 9 and 10 that was remotely passable, I think I'll adapt this into what i've found. I'll be sure to credit Jack_wdw.

 

EDIT: Done, thanks for the info Jack_wdw!


Edited by NovaTempest, 15 April 2018 - 04:55 PM.


LMG #11 Posted 15 April 2018 - 06:19 PM

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Lots of jumps for the forward guns. I'm guessing the meat of the line would be maneuverability and ordnance, as I don't really know much about the aircrafts themselves
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NovaTempest #12 Posted 16 April 2018 - 03:53 AM

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View PostLMG, on 15 April 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

Lots of jumps for the forward guns. I'm guessing the meat of the line would be maneuverability and ordnance, as I don't really know much about the aircrafts themselves

 

and after tier V they lose defensive guns altogether. And considering how fast some of the higher tiers will be capable of going, speed could also become a factor.

 

As for durability, I get the feeling that in-game it would yo-yo between being more like german GAAs and being more like Russian GAAs with each tier. I'm thinking the Mauler and skyraider will be the most maneuverable GAAs in the game. It seems historically we never really made our minds up in terms of what we wanted out of a ground-attack craft. So that would likely explain how All over the place these designs are in terms of performance other than ordinance (based off the OP, which steadily climbs).



SpiritFoxMY #13 Posted 16 April 2018 - 04:23 AM

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I think historically the US was wedded to the idea of strategic bombing, so close air support was largely given short shrift especially once the independent air force was formed after ww2 and the army lost control over fixed wing aviation.

 

Personally I'm betting that any US GAA tree will be showcasing carrier-based dive bombers rather than traditional big gun low altitude CAS airplanes.

 

'Course I'm also betting that the American Bomber line will all have big clusters of forward firing MGs as well so...


***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


NovaTempest #14 Posted 16 April 2018 - 04:56 PM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 16 April 2018 - 04:23 AM, said:

I think historically the US was wedded to the idea of strategic bombing, so close air support was largely given short shrift especially once the independent air force was formed after ww2 and the army lost control over fixed wing aviation.

 

Personally I'm betting that any US GAA tree will be showcasing carrier-based dive bombers rather than traditional big gun low altitude CAS airplanes.

 

'Course I'm also betting that the American Bomber line will all have big clusters of forward firing MGs as well so...

 

This is exactly why I brought up the SBD and the XBTK as possible alternatives at certain tiers in the list, though if they add these American Dive bombers as GAAs, then the proverbial can of worms opens regarding the standard stukas.

 

Quite a conundrum it seems. :amazed:



J311yfish #15 Posted 16 April 2018 - 05:51 PM

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Raindrops American tech tree project (02/2014) -- including attackers

J311yfish American tech tree project (08/2015)-- aircraft arranged by first flight date as a metric for determining tier placement


Tech tree projects:  JAPAN    UNITED KINGDOM  //  Italy    France  //  Sweden    Finland (skins)    Poland    China    Brazil    UNITED STATES   GERMANY

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SonicPariah #16 Posted 16 April 2018 - 06:00 PM

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Definitely interesting and we will take it into account and see what we can add!

NovaTempest #17 Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:21 PM

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View PostSonicPariah, on 16 April 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

Definitely interesting and we will take it into account and see what we can add!

 

Like I have said before, the player base would be more than willing to dig around to find planes like these for the dev team. I did this to lend the guys a hand if I could. Glad you picked up on this one SonicPariah. :honoring:

 

I'll see what else I can dig up in the near future (for other nations obviously).


Edited by NovaTempest, 16 April 2018 - 08:22 PM.


ExploratorOne #18 Posted 17 April 2018 - 12:45 AM

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View Posthoom, on 15 April 2018 - 02:35 AM, said:

I'm troubled at the prospect of the notoriously nimble Skyhawk being saddled with the lumbering flight characteristics of a GA :(

On the other hand I do believe it saw service predominantly heavily loaded with bombs where the agility would have been severely diminished so maybe its actually quite fitting.

Its a bit too recent for the game though isn't it?

 

First flew in 1954...

 

A bit of research:

https://www.boeing.c...ack-bomber.page

http://nationalinter...the-skies-21967

http://jets.wikia.com/wiki/A-4_Skyhawk

https://history.nasa...-468/ch12-7.htm

http://a4skyhawk.inf...duction-history

http://a4skyhawk.inf...-technical-data

https://drawingdatab...r-fightinghawk/

http://a4skyhawk.inf...utaway-mod1.jpg

http://a4skyhawk.inf...ry_thompson.jpg

http://www.f-16.net/...20556&mode=view

https://i.pinimg.com...3a9ddefea7b.png

http://i1352.photobu...zpsd5094862.jpg


Edited by ExploratorOne, 17 April 2018 - 12:47 AM.


hoom #19 Posted 19 April 2018 - 05:52 AM

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Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the Skyhawk & would love to see it in the game if WG considers it fits the timeline.

 

But the game really only goes up to Korean war era, most T10s have late '40s first flights.

A few bleed through to the early '50s & while '54 is only a couple of years later A4 is really the start of the Vietnam era jets rather than the tail end of Korean war era so I don't think it does fit.

 


C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

Martymart1976 #20 Posted 19 April 2018 - 02:53 PM

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Any love for the A 36 Apache?




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