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Do-335 A-1 Has Wrong Cowl Guns In-Game


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StoptheViolins #1 Posted 11 March 2018 - 03:04 AM

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Per Wikipedia the plane should have cowl mounted 2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 vs the 2 × 20 mm MG 151/15.  I am not sure why other than to almost match the velocities between the cowling gun (850m/s) and the hub gun (860m/s).  The 20mm version of the gun has a velocity of 700m/s.  

mnbv_fockewulfe #2 Posted 11 March 2018 - 03:23 AM

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The 15mm cannons it has ingame should be 15mm machine guns because the former isn't actually a thing.

Be sure to check your logic privileges before posting on the forum.

 


 


FreeFOXMIKE #3 Posted 11 March 2018 - 04:37 AM

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per your same source

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.../Dornier_Do_335

Armament

  • 1 × 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 103 cannon (as forward engine-mounted Motorkanone)
  • 2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cowl-mount, synchronized autocannons
  • Up to 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) bombload

 

 

 

 

  • Do 335 A-0 : 10 pre-production aircraft.
  • Do 335 A-1 : Single-seat fighter-bomber aircraft.
Proposed
  • Do 335 A-2: single-seat fighter-bomber aircraft with new weapon aiming systems, later proposed longer wing and updated DB603L engines of at least 1,471 kW (2,000 PS) output apiece.
  • Do 335 A-3: single-seat reconnaissance aircraft built from A-1 aircraft, later proposed with longer wing.
  • Do 335 A-4: single-seat reconnaissance aircraft with smaller cameras than the A-3
  • Do 335 A-5: single-seat night fighter aircraft, later night and bad weather fighter with enlarged wing and DB603L engines.
  • Do 335 A-6: two-seat night fighter aircraft, with completely separate second cockpit located above and behind the original.
  • Do 335 A-7: A-6 with longer wing.
  • Do 335 A-8: A-4 fitted with longer wing.
  • Do 335 A-9: A-4 fitted with longer wing, DB603L engines and pressurized cockpit.
  • Do 335 B-1: abandoned in development.
  • Do 335 B-2: single-seat destroyer aircraft. Fitted with 2 additional MK 103 in the wings and two 300 litre (80 US gal) drop tanks.
  • Do 335 B-3: updated B-1 but with longer wing.
  • Do 335 B-4: update of the B-1 with longer wing, DB603L engine.
  • Do 335 B-6: night fighter.
  • Do 335 B-12: dual-seat trainer version for the B-series aircraft.
  • Do 435: a Do 335 with the redesigned, longer wing. Allied intelligence reports from early May 1945 mention spotting a Do 435 at the Dornier factory airfield at Lowenthal.
  • Do 535: actually the He 535, once the Dornier P254 design was handed over to Heinkel in October 1944; fitted with jet engine in place of rear piston engine[7]
  • Do 635: long-range reconnaissance version. Also called Junkers Ju 635 or Do 335Z. Mock up only.
  • Do P 256: turbojet nightfighter version, with two podded HeS 011 turbojet engines,[8] based on Do 335 airframe.

           332 Virtual  Fighter  Group

 


J311yfish #4 Posted 11 March 2018 - 12:54 PM

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View PostStoptheViolins, on 10 March 2018 - 10:04 PM, said:

Per Wikipedia  

 

If you are making the claim that something is in error, then the burden of proof is on you to explain how and why with substantiated information.

 

Wikipedia is not a primary source -- it is a secondary source, that happens also to be a work-in-progress with a generous editing policy.

 

Furthermore, look at the source claimed to the origin of those specifications -- it is in turn a webpage with an anonymous author, and no sources identified.


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SpiritFoxMY #5 Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:11 PM

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The National Air and Space museum supports the 151/15 configuration.

 

https://airandspace....5-0-pfeil-arrow

 


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Lt_Haruhi_Suzumiya #6 Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:11 PM

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https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/dornier-do-335-0-pfeil-arrow

According to Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum,  Do 335 Armed with two 15mm MG-151/15.

And It is one and only survivor aircraft of Do 335.  Do 335 A-0 Variant.  A-02 one.

 

Maybe they only can rely on Do 335 A-0 one, cause it is only one survivor aircraft in this world, at this timeline.

So,  even these Gaijin guys of WT made their Do 335 A-1 with two 15mm MG-151/15, and added option to replace 20mm of A-0 to 15mm.

 

only one real Do 335 armed with 15mm,  both of game made their Do-335 with 15mm,
I don't think 15mm MG-151/15 is wrong cowl gun.

 

I don't have any proper source and physical evidence,  but according to circumstantial evidence, I think they made their plane right.

 

postscript - and I guess that It would be OP if Do 335 A-1 have 20mm MG-151/20.  for now, Do 335 is powerful for killing heavy target, when it is operated with skillful pilot.  same as Ta 152 does.  If Do 335 have 20mm,  who cares bout Me 209A?

 

 

post-postscript.

View PostStoptheViolins, on 10 March 2018 - 07:04 PM, said:

20 mm MG 151/15.

I think you need to edit your post.. 


I guess, This pilot is worst teammate when you are on match, *Facepalm

 

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StoptheViolins #7 Posted 11 March 2018 - 01:44 PM

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Nope, not really.  A-0 was a pre-production version. Saying that it's similar to the production model is like complaining your car isn't made of clay.

Since I can't shove any of the half dozen books sitting around me into the computer you are stuck with wiki.

SpiritFoxMY #8 Posted 11 March 2018 - 02:47 PM

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View PostStoptheViolins, on 11 March 2018 - 01:44 PM, said:

Nope, not really. A-0 was a pre-production version. Saying that it's similar to the production model is like complaining your car isn't made of clay.

Since I can't shove any of the half dozen books sitting around me into the computer you are stuck with wiki.

 

Only one example of the first production version Do 335A-1 left the Dornier line at Friedrichshafen just before the war ended. It was armed with one 30 mm MK-103 cannon (70 rounds were carried) firing through the propeller hub and two 15 mm MG-151/15 cannon (200 rounds per gun) firing from the top cowling of the forward engine. The aircraft was also equipped to carry an internal bomb load of 500 kg (1,100 lb). - Smithsonian Air and Space Museum, Do-335 A-0 Pfeil, Par 4, line 4. 

 

Maybe post the names and authors of the books so we can try look them up?


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Animal_of_Pryale #9 Posted 12 March 2018 - 12:10 AM

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Per Hitler's Luftwaffe, A technical encyclopedia which shows every German WWII plane some with schematics, the A-1 was outfitted with 2 X 15mm MG 151/15 and a 30mm Mk 103 cannon. It was not until the A-6 when the MG was changed to 2 X 20mm MG 151/20 and the bomb rack was removed. The A-6 was a 2-seat night fighter equipped with FuG 220 radar operated from the rear seat.


 

By VE-day 90 aircraft had been produced, 60 flown, and 20 delivered to combat units.

 

The authors of Hitler's Luftwaffe were Tony Wood / Bill Gunston

ISBN 0-86101-005-1

 

 

 


Edited by Animal_of_Pryale, 12 March 2018 - 12:28 AM.


Animal_of_Pryale #10 Posted 12 March 2018 - 12:44 AM

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PS: There was no A-0. The pre-production version was designated Do 335V1 first flown in Autumn of 1943.  Production of the A-1 began late November of 1944.

 

The plane the Smithsonian had was an A-1 which was returned to Dornier and restored in the 1970s.



StoptheViolins #11 Posted 12 March 2018 - 01:59 AM

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No the one in the Smithsonian is an A-0.  Just go to their sire.

SkyWolf__WM #12 Posted 12 March 2018 - 10:04 PM

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comtedumas #13 Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:16 AM

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View PostStoptheViolins, on 11 March 2018 - 08:59 PM, said:

No the one in the Smithsonian is an A-0. Just go to their sire.

 

Museums can be wrong, I found an error at the US Army Infantry museum at Fort Benning, GA about 12 years ago and got a nice letter thanking me for the correction.  

(They were displaying A French “Legion of Honour” upside down.  )


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do335b6 #14 Posted 15 March 2018 - 04:30 PM

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Do 335 Pfiel/Arrow Eddie Creek/J. Smith ISBN 978-1906537500

Do 335 Richard Franks ISBN 978-0-9935345-5-3

 

Both state that the NASM is an A-1, A-1 were armed with 2 151/20 not 15. 

 

It is stated in one of the books that during restoration the 15s were used due to avaliability. 



J311yfish #15 Posted 16 March 2018 - 01:02 AM

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Flying Guns of World War II - Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-1945

Anthony G. Williams & Dr Emmanuel Gustin

2003 Crowood Press Ltd

ISBN 978 1 84037 227 4

 

--"In a rather heavier category, the Luftwaffe began to receive the radical Dornier Do 335 Pfeil​ ... The first armed prototype was the Do 335V5, flown in [02/1944]: it had a MK 103 engine cannon and two MG 151/20 cowling guns.  This became standard armament for the Do 335A series, with 70 rounds for the engine cannon and 200 rounds for the cowling guns.  Both the 15mm and 20mm version of the MG 151 could be installed on the Do 335, and it is not clear what the intended standard fit was.  Despite the size of the Do 335, the body of the MK 103, aft of the engine firewall, was close to the feet of the pilot.  An ammunition tank and a tank for spent cases were installed at its sides.  About twenty A-0 and A-1 production aircraft were completed.  For such a big and powerful aircraft, their armament was not especially remarkable, except that the MK 103 was used as an engine-mounted cannon." (Williams & Gustin, 237)

-- "It is unclear whether any production aircraft were ever completed in the B-2 series, a heavily armed Zerstörer​.  The leading edge fuel tanks in the inner wing panels were deleted, and MK 103 cannon were installed in front of the wing spar, with an ammunition supply of 70 rounds each inside the leading edge.  About half of the gun body and the entire barrel protruded in front of the wing, partially covered by a bullet-shaped fairing.  The cowling guns were of the MG 151/20 model." (Williams & Gustin, 237)

-- 55mm MK 112 also mentioned: "...although ten prototypes of this gun were completed before the end of the war, none was ever installed on a Do 335.  The MK 112 was also planned for the Me 262 (two in the nose with 25 rpg) and the Arado At 234 (two with 50 rpg)." (Williams & Gustin, 237-238)


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StoptheViolins #16 Posted 16 March 2018 - 01:14 PM

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Block Quote

 The first armed prototype was the Do 335V5, flown in [02/1944]: it had a MK 103 engine cannon and two MG 151/20 cowling guns.  This became standard armament for the Do 335A series, with 70 rounds for the engine cannon and 200 rounds for the cowling guns

 

 



J311yfish #17 Posted 16 March 2018 - 06:43 PM

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The Illustrated Directory of Fighting Aircraft of World War II

Bill Gunston

Salamander Books Ltd 1988

ISBN 1 84065 092 3

 

Dornier Do 335 Pfeil

Do 335 A-1 and A-6

Origin: Dornier-Werke GmbH

Type: (A-1) single-seat fighter, (A-6) two-seat night fighter.

Engines: Two 1,900hp Daimler-Benz DB 603G 12-cylinder inverted-vee liquid-cooled, in push/pull arrangement.

Dimensions: Span 45ft 4in (13.8m); length 45ft 6in (13.87m); height 16ft 4in (4m).

Weights: Empty (A-1) 16,314lb (7400kg); (A-6) 16,975lb (7700kg); maximum loaded (both) 25,800lb (11,700kg)

Performance: Maximum speed (A-1) 413mph (665 km/h) sustained; 477 mph (765 km/h) emergency boost (A06 about 40mph slower in each case); initial climb (A-1) 4,600ft (1400m)/min; service ceiling (A-1) 37,400ft (11,410m); (A-6) 33,400ft (10,190m); maximum range (both) 1,280 miles (2050km) clean, up to 2,330 miles (3750km) with drop tank.

Armament: Typical A-1, one 30mm MK 103 cannon firing through front propeller hub and two 15mm MG 151/15 above nose; underwing racks for light stores and centerline rack for 1,100lb (500kg) bomb; A-6 did not carry bomb and usually had 15mm guns replaced by 20mm MG 151/20s.

History: First flight (Do 335V1) autumn 1943; (production A-1) late November 1944.

User: Germany (Luftwaffe)

 

Development: Dornier took out a patent in 1937 for an aircraft powered by two engines, one behind the other, in the fuselage, driving tractor and pusher propellers.  In 1939-1940 Schempp-Hirth built the Gö​ research aircraft to test the concept of a rear propeller driven by an extension shaft and in 1941 work began on the Do 231 fighter-bomber.  This was replaced by the Do 335 and by first flight Dornier had orders for 14 prototypes, ten preproduction A-0s, 11 production A-1s and three dual-control trainer A-10 and A-12 with stepped tandem cockpits.  At high speed the 335 was prone to unpleasant porpoising and snaking, but production continued on the A-1, the A-4 reconnaissance batch and the A-6 with FuG 220 radar operated by a rear-seat observer.  Though heavy, the 335 was strong and very fast and was notable in having the first production type of ejection seat (for obvious reasons).  By VE-day about 90 aircraft had been rolled out, more than 60 flown and about 20 delivered to combat units.  Work was also well advanced on a number of versions of the Do 335B heavy fighter, with added MK 108 cannon in the wings (some having two-stage engines and long-span wings), the Do 435 with various powerful engines, and the twinned Do 635 with two Do 335 fuselages linked by a new parallel center-section.  The 635, which was being designed and produced by Junkers as the 8-635, would have weighed 72,000lb as a reconnaissance aircraft, and flown 4,050 miles cruising at 398mph.  Pfeil means 'arrow'."


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J311yfish #18 Posted 16 March 2018 - 06:55 PM

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Rather than quote sources back and forth, which will only serve to highlight potential ambiguity, another method would be to actually look at the clues given by the in-game aircraft itself.  For example:

 

Engine: 2xDB 603 E-1/Q-E1

Airframe: Do-335 A-1

Armament: 2x15mm MG-151/15 (1945) (S) and 30mm MK-103 (1945) (H)

Bombs: 4xSD 250

 

So for example, by combining information from above...

-- Do-335V-1 first flight autumn 1943

-- Do-335V-5 first flight 02/1944 -- "became standard armament of the A-series"

-- Do-335A-0 first flight not specified

-- Do-335A-1 first flight late 11/1944

... and acknowledging the labeling of the in-game weaponry as "1945" this would appear to be a later armament of the Do-335A-1, and perhaps an alternate historical timeline such as for Japan -- in which case no argument against the in-game aircraft can really be made because it is from another universe.

 

Another avenue would be to find the exact mention of the DB 603 E-1/Q-E1, if it actually existed, and to find the corresponding armament.


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J311yfish #19 Posted 17 March 2018 - 09:07 PM

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Warplanes of the Third Reich

William Green

Galahad Books 1990

ISBN 0-88365-666-3

 

Do 335 V1 -- DB 603A-2 1850hp @ 6890' -- FF 10/26/1943. (Green, 157)

Do 335 V2 -- DB 603A-2 1850hp @ 6890'. (Green, 157)

Do 335 V3 -- DB 603A-2 1850hp @ 6890'. (Green, 157)

Do 335 V4 -- assigned to Do 435 development program, never completed; cancelled by RLM autumn 1944. (Green, 158)

​Do 335 V5 -- "...the first prototype to be fitted with armament, and with a 30-mm engine-mounted MK 103 cannon with 70 rounds and two 15-mm MG 151 cannon with 200 r.p.g. mounted in the upper decking of the forward fuselage, this aircraft was delivered to the Waffenerprobungsstelle​ at Tarnewitz for firing trials." (Green, 158)

​Do 335 V6 -- "...retained by the Oberpfaffenhofen plant for various equipment trials." (Green, 158)

​Do 335 V7 -- "...retained by the Oberpfaffenhofen plant for various equipment trials ... later being transferred to Junkers at Dessau where it was employed for ground test with Jumo 213A and 213E engines throughout the summer of 1944, these at one time being envisaged as potential alternative power plants to the DB 603 ..." (Green, 158)

​Do 335 V8 -- "...delivered to Daimler-Benz for installation of the definitive DB603E-1 engines and subsequent use as an engine test bed." (Green, 158)

​Do 335 V9 -- "...completed to pre-production standards with full armament and delivered to the Rechlin Erprobungsstelle in [05/1944], being followed off the line by the first Do 335A-0 (​Werk-Nr. ​101 VG + PG)..." (Green, 158)

​Do 335 V10 -- "... first prototype for the Do 335A-6 radar-equipped two-seat all-weather and night interceptor ..." (Green, 159)

​Do 335 V11 -- "... two-seat [prototype] ... for the DB603A-2-powered Do 335 A-10 ... dual-control [trainer]." (Green, 160)

Do 335 V12 -- "... two-seat [prototype] ... for the DB603A-2-powered Do 335 A-12 ... dual-control [trainer]." (Green, 160)

Do 335 V13 -- "... had the 15-mm MG 151 cannon in the forward fuselage replaced by 20-mm MG 151s, and was intended to serve as a prototype for the Do 335B-1 ..." (Green, 160-161)

​Do 335 V14 -- "... [armament of V13] supplanted with two 30-mm MK 103 cannon mounted just inboard of the main undercarriage attachment points, this being the prototype for the Do 335B-2." (Green, 161)

Do 335 V15 -- "... [second] prototype of the B-1 ..." (Green, 161)

Do 335 V16 -- "... [second] prototype of the B-2 ..." (Green, 161)

​Do 335 V17 -- "... intended as the prototype of the B-6 two-seat night and all-weather fighter similar to the A-6 but possessing the same armament as that of the B-1 ..." (Green, 161)

​Do 335 V18 -- "... was to have been the second prototype for the Do 335B-6 ..." (Green, 161)

​Do 335 V19 -- "... would have been [prototype] for the Do 335B-3 ... powered by DB 603LA engines with two-stage superchargers ..." (Green, 161)

Do 335 V20 -- "... would have been [prototype] for the Do 335B-7 ... powered by DB 603LA engines with two-stage superchargers ..." (Green, 161)

 

Do 335 A-0 -- "...intended for service evaluation as a single-seat fighter-bomber.  Powered by two DB 603A-2 engines and carrying a cannon armament of one 30-mm MK 103 and two 15-mm MG 151s, the Do 335A-0 was an all-metal low-wing cantilever monoplane.  The trapezoidal stressed skin wing... [extensive design details]." (Green, 158-159)

​Do 335 A-1 -- "The initial production model ... appeared on the Oberpfaffenhofen assembly line during the late autumn of 1944, was essentially similar to the pre-production model apart from having DB 603E-1 engines which, with enlarged superchargers, each provided 1800hp for take-off and 1900hp at 5905 ft., and hard points in the wings immediately outboard of the main undercarriage attachment points capable of lifting either two 82.5 Imp. gal. drop tanks or two 551-lb bombs." (Green, 159)

​Do 335 A-2 -- "... proposed [sub-type] with different cannon armament overtaken by the B-series." (Green, 159)

Do 335 A-3 -- "... proposed sub-types with different cannon armament overtaken by the B-series." (Green, 159)

​Do 335 A-4 -- "... one Do 335A-0 was adapted as a prototype for the Do 335A-4 unarmed long-range reconnaissance model, 10 production examples of which were scheduled to be delivered in [01/1945-02/1945] ... intended to be powered by two DB 603G engines which, having higher speed superchargers, increased compression ratio, and using 96 octane C3 fuel, each afforded 1900hp for take-off and 1560hp at 24605 ft ... calculated maximum speed being 413 mph at 26,100 ft ..." (Green, 159)

Do 335 A-6 -- "... radar-equipped two-seat all-weather and night interceptor ... Cannon armament remained unchanged, but an FuG 101a radio altimeter was introduced together with FuG 217J Neptune​ intercept radar with wing-mounted antennae ... intended to have DB 603E engines with provision for methanol-water injection (MW 50) for power boosting below the rated altitude of the power plants ... boosted to 2400hp at sea level per engine." (Green, 159-160)

​Do 335 A-10 -- "... dual-control conversion trainer ... delivered without armament, but similar armament to that of the A-1 was specified for production ..." (Green, 160-161)

​Do 335 A-12 -- "... dual-control conversion trainer ... delivered without armament, but similar armament to that of the A-1 was specified for production ... the second genuine production Pfeil was, in fact, a Do 335A-12 trainer (Werk-Nr​. 112)." (Green, 160-161)

 

​-----------------------------------

 

This is so far the most definitive source I have seen on the subject.  There is more that can be said of the B-series, but since it is beyond the scope and adds little value to the question of A-1's armament, I will not include it here.

 

The original source of the MG 151/20 error -- if we may call it that -- may be 'Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II', which is itself a recreation of Jane's All the World's Aircraft of 1945/1946, "the first wholly  uncensored issue [since] 1939."  Interestingly, the foreword to that book is written by Bill Gunston (a prolific author), and in books he writes later (including that mentioned by me above in 1988), the armament is claimed to be MG 151/15's and not MG 151/20's -- meaning he had an opportunity to correct or revise earlier data.


Edited by J311yfish, 17 March 2018 - 09:40 PM.

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J311yfish #20 Posted 17 March 2018 - 09:18 PM

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Warplanes of the Luftwaffe

edited by David Donald

Aerospace Publishing Ltd 1994

ISBN 0-7607-2283-8

 

Do 335A-1

Powerplant: "... the production Do-335A-1 introduced the more powerful 1340-kW (1,800-hp) DB603E-1 with an enlarged supercharger ..." (Donald, 53)

Armament: "one engine-mounted 30-mm MK 103 cannon with 70 rounds firing through propeller hub and two 15-mm MG 151 cannon with 200 rpg mounted in upper decking of forward fuselage, plus one 500-kg (1,102-lb) PC 500 or SD 500 bomb, or two 250-kg (551-lb) SC 250 bombs internally and two 250-kg (551-lb) SC 250 bombs externally." (Donald, 48-49; 53)


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