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Adding t11-t20

t11 cold-war jets

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nwlxn12 #21 Posted 17 April 2018 - 08:17 PM

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Make a whole tech tree with these:

http://www.ourworlds.net/batman/batplane/history-batplane.html



NovaTempest #22 Posted 17 April 2018 - 09:13 PM

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View PostSonicPariah, on 17 April 2018 - 08:04 PM, said:

Definitely something to think about. Even if (as stated elsewhere) it is a little outside of our timeline for playable planes.

 

Also, no nukes. NO NUKES!!! Jets might be an interesting addition, but would also change the timeline a bit overall.

 

Yeah HECK NO to that. I agree with you there. No nucler bombs, no nuclear missiles, no nuclear torpedoes, no nuclear mines. No nuclear anything.

 

Unless of course its some wild idea for a nuclear powered aircraft. :D



bjorn1984 #23 Posted 17 April 2018 - 09:52 PM

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it would be cool

 


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LMG #24 Posted 18 April 2018 - 07:00 AM

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View PostNovaTempest, on 17 April 2018 - 04:13 PM, said:

Yeah HECK NO to that. I agree with you there. No nucler bombs, no nuclear missiles, no nuclear torpedoes, no nuclear mines. No nuclear anything.

 

Unless of course its some wild idea for a nuclear powered aircraft. :D

 

Albion Rim? :popcorn:



Trophy_Wench #25 Posted 21 April 2018 - 04:35 PM

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So, after much deliberation and cross-checking; I'm ready to provide the first part of my XI-XV findings, starting with the Americans (Fighter and naval MR, the AF MR line is still in progress). First though, a few caveats. One, unlike Nova's generally excellent MiG line, the USAF really started to consolidate their manufacturers and by extensions fighter types during the period of the 1950's. Now, in fairness this is also true of the Soviets, British etc. but makes it especially challenging for the US since TAC always played second fiddle to the big bombers and missile-only armed sleds of SAC. Tactical fighters and fighter-bombers were often the same plane, just different variants. So, we're going to have to start throwing the family tree idea out the window and find the air frames that fit the requirements. So without further adeiu, lets start with the fighters

 

XI: F-86 G/H

Fairly obvious here. More power, better maneuverability, and most importantly finally get some 20's to replace the six-pack. Should match up pretty well with the MiG-17. It should also be noted that the Tier X F-86 should get upgrades for the 'E' model.

 

XII: either XF-91 or XF-92

I'm personally more partial to the XF-91 Thunderceptor here because it was closer to being production ready but either way these would be the 2 best possible options for a early supersonic fighter. Plus the rocket motor gimmick on the Thunderceptor should give it phenomenal climb rate.

 

XIII: F-100A

North American's last production fighter. This would NOT include upgrades to the C/D models, which were built as fighter-bombers. (More on that later) The 'A' was the only dedicated fighter variant of the bunch but ingame might include upgrades to the never built 'BI' interceptor version. 

 

XIV: XF-104

Intial test variant of the famous (infamous?) Starfighter. And armed to boot with the M61 Vulcan! Now in case anyone is wondering why either the F-101 or F-102 isn't here instead; the F-101 makes more sense as a heavy (again, more on that later) and the F-102 was never armed with a gun. 

 

XV: F-104A

Production version, now with missiles!



Trophy_Wench #26 Posted 21 April 2018 - 06:47 PM

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Now for the Navy:

 

XI: either FJ-4 or F3H

I find it highly amusing that we can have yet another variant of the Sabre put into the game, now with actual fighter-bomber action! Personally though, I'd rather the Demon here since it was a ground up Navy fighter.

 

XII: F-11F

I debated whether to put the Tiger or the F4D Skyray (More on that one in a moment) at this tier but chose the Tiger for it's ultimately lesser potential. Which leads us too...

 

XIII: F4D

Not much faster than the Tiger but much more capable. The other reason I waffled on tier placement for these two planes is because of the aircraft I chose next.

 

XIV: F11F-1F

The Super Tiger! In fairness, one could make a case for the F5D as well here for an alternate but I'd rather that go into some future heavy fighter line instead.

 

XV: F-8 (F8U)

Awkwardly, as much a I love this plane the MR capability didn't come until the later variants when all weather attack capability was added. So this plane is more fighter than MR. But it certainly could carry bombs and rockets (and early variants had a retractable MM FFAR tray at least) so this might need some WG imagineering to make it viable for the category it's in.


Edited by Trophy_Wench, 25 April 2018 - 05:01 PM.


FIight #27 Posted 23 April 2018 - 05:33 AM

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View PostTrophy_Wench, on 21 April 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

Now for the Navy:

 

XI: either FJ-3/4 or F3H

I find it highly amusing that we can have yet another variant of the Sabre put into the game, now with actual fighter-bomber action! Personally though, I'd rather the Demon here since it was a ground up Navy fighter.

 

XII: F-11F

I debated whether to put the Tiger or the F4D Skyray (More on that one in a moment) at this tier but chose the Tiger for it's ultimately lesser potential. Which leads us too...

 

XIII: F4D

Not much faster than the Tiger but much more capable. The other reason I waffled on tier placement for these two planes is because of the aircraft I chose next.

 

XIV: F11F-1F

The Super Tiger! In fairness, one could make a case for the F5D as well here for an alternate but I'd rather that go into some future heavy fighter line instead.

 

XV: F-8 (F8U)

Awkwardly, as much a I love this plane the MR capability didn't come until the later variants when all weather attack capability was added. So this plane is more fighter than MR. But it certainly could carry bombs and rockets (and early variants had a retractable MM FFAR tray at least) so this might need some WG imagineering to make it viable for the category it's in.

 

could be like that, the line extends from t11 to t15, ending at the climax of cold war.

FIight #28 Posted 23 April 2018 - 05:35 AM

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One thing I am worried about is that Great Britain may not have a complete, implementable line. They lacked planes in between Hunter(which may be a t10) and EE Lightning.

FIight #29 Posted 23 April 2018 - 05:48 PM

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View PostNovaTempest, on 17 April 2018 - 04:13 PM, said:

 

Yeah HECK NO to that. I agree with you there. No nucler bombs, no nuclear missiles, no nuclear torpedoes, no nuclear mines. No nuclear anything.

 

Unless of course its some wild idea for a nuclear powered aircraft. :D

 

https://jalopnik.com...uclear-aircraft

Trophy_Wench #30 Posted 23 April 2018 - 06:28 PM

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View PostFIight, on 23 April 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

One thing I am worried about is that Great Britain may not have a complete, implementable line. They lacked planes in between Hunter(which may be a t10) and EE Lightning.

 

You are absolutely correct in that regard. Unfortunately, the British are proving to be an absolute nightmare. While there are some experimental and prototype aircraft that can fill gaps, I'm afraid that the MR line would likely end at around tier 12 (assuming that the Hunter F.1 becomes the MR tier X) with another Hunter variant. It would then fold back into the interceptor line and that would end at Lightning. My Big issues with them are between tiers 12-14 for the interceptor line. That's where the prototypes and concept planes have to fit and a lot of them were built to specifications that ultimately ended up with Lightning or became missile only armed sleds which as I've shown with the American's aren't feasible for this game.

Trophy_Wench #31 Posted 25 April 2018 - 06:08 PM

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So I have finally come up with a workable line of MR fighters for the USAF. Be warned though that I don't particularly like what I am proposing here but it's workable and most importantly, cohesive. Lets take a look shall we?

 

XI: FJ-4

Yup. Navy interloper in the AF line, AGAIN! The one interesting caveat to this is that it could allow the FJ-1 to spin off the later Fury variants to skew into this line via the FJ-2/3 which I have now designated a tier X. Considering that those planes on their own in the Naval fighter line would be a bit of a dead end, their inclusion in these line's are at least made somewhat more palatable with this setup. Note I have edited my previous naval MR line to reflect the FJ-4 as a tier 11 alt only. One other note here is that we could split the F-86 G/H fighters into light and MR but I find this to be a scenario of replacing one bad option with another. (In case anyone was wondering, the 'G' would be the XI MR)

 

XII: YF-84J

Call it the Super Thunderstreak. It was an enlarged version of the 'F' with a larger engine and better streamlining to achieve mach 1 speeds... if only just. Disappointingly this appears to be the only viable tier XII MR I can find. 

 

XIII: F-100 C/D

The proper, FB versions of the Super. This plane should also be unlockable in parallel from the F-100A.

 

XIV: YF-107

Yeah, I could just have the earlier version of the Thunderchief here instead but it's my line so we're going Ultra-Sabre on this one baby! Don't get me wrong the LRIP YF-105A/B models can be used as an alt or even a, dare I say it premium... but so could the Ultra and I just can't resist this thing!

 

XV: F-105B

You'd be surprised how may people don't realize that not only did the Thud have a gun, it could also carry Sidewinders! It just didn't because Air Force planners in the mid 50's to mid 60's were morons. Thank your gods for John Boyd, but I digress.

 

One last note here concerns a plane that some well informed airplane aficionados may find it's lack of presence disturbing: The F-5A. The initial version of the ol' Freedom Fighter does fit into the timeline and would be a good fit at that. It would make for a great tier XIII or XIV MR with Sidewinders, rocket pods, bombs and it's twin M39's. It's only drawback would be it's sub Mach 2 speed. Why isn't this part of my line you may ask? Well, quite simply it's performance characteristics are vastly different from anything in the MR line 'flavor' owing to it's high maneuverability and lower speed with average acceleration and climb. Additionally, any upgrades would bring it past the 50's and into the Tiger II variants of the 60's.

 

Next up; the Soviets!

 


Edited by Trophy_Wench, 25 April 2018 - 06:10 PM.


FIight #32 Posted 26 April 2018 - 06:18 AM

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View PostTrophy_Wench, on 25 April 2018 - 01:08 PM, said:

So I have finally come up with a workable line of MR fighters for the USAF. Be warned though that I don't particularly like what I am proposing here but it's workable and most importantly, cohesive. Lets take a look shall we?

 

XI: FJ-4

Yup. Navy interloper in the AF line, AGAIN! The one interesting caveat to this is that it could allow the FJ-1 to spin off the later Fury variants to skew into this line via the FJ-2/3 which I have now designated a tier X. Considering that those planes on their own in the Naval fighter line would be a bit of a dead end, their inclusion in these line's are at least made somewhat more palatable with this setup. Note I have edited my previous naval MR line to reflect the FJ-4 as a tier 11 alt only. One other note here is that we could split the F-86 G/H fighters into light and MR but I find this to be a scenario of replacing one bad option with another. (In case anyone was wondering, the 'G' would be the XI MR)

 

XII: YF-84J

Call it the Super Thunderstreak. It was an enlarged version of the 'F' with a larger engine and better streamlining to achieve mach 1 speeds... if only just. Disappointingly this appears to be the only viable tier XII MR I can find. 

 

XIII: F-100 C/D

The proper, FB versions of the Super. This plane should also be unlockable in parallel from the F-100A.

 

XIV: YF-107

Yeah, I could just have the earlier version of the Thunderchief here instead but it's my line so we're going Ultra-Sabre on this one baby! Don't get me wrong the LRIP YF-105A/B models can be used as an alt or even a, dare I say it premium... but so could the Ultra and I just can't resist this thing!

 

XV: F-105B

You'd be surprised how may people don't realize that not only did the Thud have a gun, it could also carry Sidewinders! It just didn't because Air Force planners in the mid 50's to mid 60's were morons. Thank your gods for John Boyd, but I digress.

 

One last note here concerns a plane that some well informed airplane aficionados may find it's lack of presence disturbing: The F-5A. The initial version of the ol' Freedom Fighter does fit into the timeline and would be a good fit at that. It would make for a great tier XIII or XIV MR with Sidewinders, rocket pods, bombs and it's twin M39's. It's only drawback would be it's sub Mach 2 speed. Why isn't this part of my line you may ask? Well, quite simply it's performance characteristics are vastly different from anything in the MR line 'flavor' owing to it's high maneuverability and lower speed with average acceleration and climb. Additionally, any upgrades would bring it past the 50's and into the Tiger II variants of the 60's.

 

Next up; the Soviets!

 

 

Great thought, I will try to fill in UK fighter/striker lines.

XI

De Havilland Sea Vixen

This bulky stuff could carry the first generation Firestreak heat-seaker. It has no specified forward firing guns,

but some of the 6 hard points could carry ADEN or rocket pods.

 

XII

Saab 32 Lansen

might surprise you a little bit. This swedish aircraft is more like a swedish copy of the Hunter series, but much faster

and features a licensed AVON engine. It has 4 ADENs and could carry 4 AIM-9 missiles.

 

XIII

Fairey Delta 2

Yep an experimental aircraft. It has a recorded speed of 2092kph acccording to Wiki.

 

XIV

Bristol 188

a research aircraft that lays foundation for later Mach 2.0 fighters.

 

XV

EE Lightning

the famous mach 2 british fighter



Trophy_Wench #33 Posted 26 April 2018 - 03:54 PM

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Well, the Lansen is certainly a left-field choice! I see what you're trying to get at and that Bristol 188 is a intriguing choice. Let me show you what I have come up with so far and see what you think?

 

XI: LF Swift F.4 -- MR Hunter F.6

So yeah, I'm stretching the Swift here since well, it's performance will allow it with the later variants. Same as the Hunter (again, going off the presumption that the F.1 becomes the MR tier X.)

 

XII: LF Supermarine 545 -- MR Gnat F.1/2/4?

The 545 was a supersonic development of the Swift so a pretty obvious follow on here. As for the Gnat, I initially was going to try and stretch the Hunter further but upon researching the Gnat as a premium option, I realized that there were planned supersonic developments of the fighter so now I'm adding it in. Not sure if the F.4 would be too advanced for this tier but at least It could stretch if necessary. (I'm still trying to find something else though, but I'm not hopeful)

 

XIII: LF ??? -- MR Gnat F.4?

This is pretty much where it all falls apart. While there are test aircraft that are built during this time, none of them were built as fighters and most, stemming from Operational Requirement F.155 were designed as Mach 2+ missile sleds and therefore not really feasible for the game (yes, this includes the Fairey Delta 2). Again, the Gnat F.4 could stretch here though so there's that but it's still leaving a gap at the next tier.

 

XIV: LF P.1A/B -- MR ???

So we have the prototype Lightning at XIV which is sensible since I'm putting the Lightning F.1 at XV, but the MR has... nothing. Literally nothing.

 

XV: LF Lightning F.1 -- MR P.1121?

Again, Lightning comes on at the end nothing surprising here. The intriguing option here though is the Hawker P.1121 prototype. It's nice first of all to bring it all back home with a Hawker design but this thing, which looks like a Typhoon from the 50's or a cross (to my American eyes at least) between and F-16 and an F-100 was designed to compete with the EE design for a mach 2+ interceptor with the added bonus it could be a FB as well. It's true capabilities are hard to pin down since an operational air frame was never built but given some WG imagineering would be viable.

 

 



LMG #34 Posted 26 April 2018 - 05:22 PM

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I want a tier XI IL-102 :P


Edited by LMG, 26 April 2018 - 05:22 PM.

This is my IL-2 (t). There are many like it, but this one is mine. :child:

Trophy_Wench #35 Posted 26 April 2018 - 07:44 PM

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View PostLMG, on 26 April 2018 - 05:22 PM, said:

I want a tier XI IL-102 :P

 

Lol, you might be more on point than you realize!

FIight #36 Posted 27 April 2018 - 08:33 AM

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View PostTrophy_Wench, on 26 April 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

Well, the Lansen is certainly a left-field choice! I see what you're trying to get at and that Bristol 188 is a intriguing choice. Let me show you what I have come up with so far and see what you think?

 

XI: LF Swift F.4 -- MR Hunter F.6

So yeah, I'm stretching the Swift here since well, it's performance will allow it with the later variants. Same as the Hunter (again, going off the presumption that the F.1 becomes the MR tier X.)

 

XII: LF Supermarine 545 -- MR Gnat F.1/2/4?

The 545 was a supersonic development of the Swift so a pretty obvious follow on here. As for the Gnat, I initially was going to try and stretch the Hunter further but upon researching the Gnat as a premium option, I realized that there were planned supersonic developments of the fighter so now I'm adding it in. Not sure if the F.4 would be too advanced for this tier but at least It could stretch if necessary. (I'm still trying to find something else though, but I'm not hopeful)

 

XIII: LF ??? -- MR Gnat F.4?

This is pretty much where it all falls apart. While there are test aircraft that are built during this time, none of them were built as fighters and most, stemming from Operational Requirement F.155 were designed as Mach 2+ missile sleds and therefore not really feasible for the game (yes, this includes the Fairey Delta 2). Again, the Gnat F.4 could stretch here though so there's that but it's still leaving a gap at the next tier.

 

XIV: LF P.1A/B -- MR ???

So we have the prototype Lightning at XIV which is sensible since I'm putting the Lightning F.1 at XV, but the MR has... nothing. Literally nothing.

 

XV: LF Lightning F.1 -- MR P.1121?

Again, Lightning comes on at the end nothing surprising here. The intriguing option here though is the Hawker P.1121 prototype. It's nice first of all to bring it all back home with a Hawker design but this thing, which looks like a Typhoon from the 50's or a cross (to my American eyes at least) between and F-16 and an F-100 was designed to compete with the EE design for a mach 2+ interceptor with the added bonus it could be a FB as well. It's true capabilities are hard to pin down since an operational air frame was never built but given some WG imagineering would be viable.

 

 

 

The British skipped the most critical phases of aircraft design. Their planes in the early 1950s are quite decent, so are those in the early 1960s. The Lightning is a huge leap from Hunter and until the very late of 1970s did they have tornado jets and Sea Harriers. Their aircraft design stalled again until the very early of 21st century in which they start to equip EF-2000. 

Trophy_Wench #37 Posted 29 April 2018 - 02:05 PM

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View PostFIight, on 27 April 2018 - 08:33 AM, said:

 

The British skipped the most critical phases of aircraft design. Their planes in the early 1950s are quite decent, so are those in the early 1960s. The Lightning is a huge leap from Hunter and until the very late of 1970s did they have tornado jets and Sea Harriers. Their aircraft design stalled again until the very early of 21st century in which they start to equip EF-2000. 

 

Tell me about it. This is what I mean that it's super frustrating to have any kind of cohesive line for them. I mean granted, this is all just theorycrafting but given that the British are one of the few who do have top level options and a pretty famous one at that it would be nice to give them a clear linear progression to that stage.

 

Anyhoo... on to the Soviets!

 

The SU is one of the oddest nations in the game IMO. 3 Distinct fighter lines but only one mish-mashed MR line as well as a well defined GAA line which mostly took the steam out of true FB development in the SU until the 1960's. In looking at potential tiers XI-XV options we start to see just how much consolidation the VVS and PVO actually had for their fighter types after WWII. MiG was the go-to for most of their combat aircraft until Sukohi bounced back in the late 1950's, leaving the likes of Lavochkin, Yakolev and a few others behind. In the case of Yakolev, they were limited to a handful of very specialized aircraft but continues to solider on to this day with the Yak-130 and 152 training aircraft as well as civilian airliners. Lavochkin meanwhile, went to space and never looked back. It's last air frame was the La-250 'Anaconda' prototype interceptor. It is with there parameters in mind that will now take a look at how the fighter lines would stack up for the SU at these theoretical tiers. For starters, lets recap the MiG line as the benchmark. (H/T NovaTempest!) Please note that this line is THE BENCHMARK for all of my work up to this point:

XI: MiG17

XII: I-340/360 (SM-1/2)

XII: MiG-19

XIV: Ye-4/5/MiG-21 (Full disclosure: this was a change that I made)

XV: MiG-21F or F-13

 

So, with that established let us start to look at each individual company line and see what we come up with. Starting with Yakolev LF:

 

XI: Yak-50

Basically just a stretched Yak-30 with a more powerful engine. Compared quite similarly to the MiG-17

 

XII, XIII: Nothing

With Yakolev concentrating on the development of the Yak-25 and 28 twin-engined multirole fighters (more on those later). Only one other single engine fighter was developed during this time...

 

XIV: Yak-140

Roughly analogous to the early MiG-21's. Because engine availability issues hampered her development, the Soviet government halted development of the fighter.

 

XV: Nothing

 

As you can see, Yakolev stalls out pretty quickly at these tiers. Leaving the orphaned Yak-140 as the only viable higher tier option. Now for Lavochkin:

 

XI: La-200

This plane competed with a few others designs for a tandem engined interceptor. It's performance however was purely transonic.

 

XII: La-190

A one-off early supersonic fighter prototype. Was designed to compete with the likes of the MiG-19.

 

XIII, XIV, XV: Nothing

Once again, the whole line just stalls out but at least it's a little more cohesive and linear now. 

 

In part 2, we'll take a look at Sukohi, the MR's and how it all comes together!


Edited by Trophy_Wench, 29 April 2018 - 02:06 PM.


Trophy_Wench #38 Posted 07 May 2018 - 02:49 AM

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Soviet Fighters Part 2:

 

So now that we have established what contributions the 3 existing lines of Soviet LF's offer at tiers XI-XV, we now turn our attention to the MR's and more importantly; Sukohi. 

The Sukohi Design Bureau today is a far cry from the one that existed during and immediately after WWII. The company was a bit player during the war, the only major contribution was the somewhat obsolescent SU-2 light bomber and GAA. A design that was later superseded by the legendary Il-2. After the war, they like others experimented with captured German jet engine technology and developed some fighters, mainly the Su-9 we have in game and it's follow-ons the Su-11/13. They also developed a large, tandem engined interceptor to compete with the La-200 and a similar MiG design, the Su-15. It is from here that we start to look at the line in depth. The Su-11 and 13 were simply improved versions of the basic Su-9 with some mild aerodynamic refinements and improved engines. (In the case of the 13, which was never actually built, a 3rd 37mm cannon would have been added too.) As a combined effort in WoWP, these 2 planes would collectively make for a half decent tier IX MR, either branching off or replacing the I-211. This may be unlikely however and doesn't really solve any issue about the rest of Sukohi's lineup.

 

By 1949, Sukohi had fallen out of favor with Stalin and he was forced to close his design bureau. The last aircraft they developed was the Su-17 (Projekt 'R') A swept wing prototype fighter that was designed for transonic speeds. Roughly equivalent (from what I can gather) to the La-190 mentioned above.  After his death, Sukohi then opened a new and improved Sukohi OKB and got to work designing new planes immediately. Based on this body of work the sum total of relavant Sukohi aircraft for tiers XI-XV would look something like this:

 

XI: Su-15

(I should add that given the size of this thing, it would likely make for a better heavy fighter than anything.)

 

XII: Su-17

See above

 

XIII: S-1

Developmental prototype of what would eventually become the Su-7

 

XIV: Su-7 --> MR: Su-7A

Note that this would be the original point-defence interceptor version of the type and not the Su-7A ground attack fighter but both planes would be represented here and the 'A' would simply be unlocked in parallel to the Su-7

 

XV: P-1

Another experimental interceptor design, independent of the designs that would eventually spawn the Su-9 interceptor, which has no gun.

 

Looking at this line, it's clear that a) Sukohi cannot continue the MR line on it's own and only has one contributable aircraft to that line and that b) Sukohi cannot smoothly transition from MR to LF given the missing links between tiers 9-11 (again, the role of the Su--15 is debatable). The only option therefore would be to allow it to meld into another fighters lineup. To that end, I have chosen the LF La line to be the best option. Yakolev would simply stop or research into the MiG line down the road. Regardless, the combined line from tiers would end up looking something like this:

XI: La-200 (La-17)

XII: either La-190 or Su-17 (I personally prefer the 190)

XIII: S-1/2

XIV: LF Su-7 --> MR Su-7A

XV: P-1

 

Now, you might be thinking; Shirley there has to be more MR's out there! You can't just have the main line end at tier X and then have one orphaned plane at tier XIV, is there nothing else?!? Well, not really. The MiG-19S for example can come in at tier XIII and be researchable from the main line plane like the Su-7 (which would be rather amusing). And it's not unfeasible to imagine that the Su-15 could carry a bomb or rocket load even though it was designed as an interceptor... but it's still a stretch. Also, the MR variants of the MiG-21 didn't come online until the 1960's so that would but it beyond the reach of even this whole scenario but it's not at least inconceivable that it could imagineer it's way to tier XV? All in all, while Sukohi does come to the rescue to provide some additional variety to the Soviets, it's clear that it's pretty much a MiG dominated area, just as it was in real life.

 

Next up... who knows!!! If you still want this to continue, say so and I'll keep going but I think we've theorycrafted this idea enough for now...


Edited by Trophy_Wench, 07 May 2018 - 01:30 PM.





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