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chrishg #1 Posted 20 February 2018 - 03:09 AM

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I would really like to enjoy this game but.....   I feel that MM has decided which side will win before the battle starts.  6 straight games tonight where I was the top scorer on both teams but my side lost everytime.  At least in ver 1.XXX a single player could make a difference and turn the tide. Not anymore.  Oh well maybe give this game a try in a few months.

trikke #2 Posted 20 February 2018 - 03:43 AM

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View Postchrishg, on 19 February 2018 - 10:09 PM, said:

I would really like to enjoy this game but.....   I feel that MM has decided which side will win before the battle starts.  6 straight games tonight where I was the top scorer on both teams but my side lost everytime.  At least in ver 1.XXX a single player could make a difference and turn the tide. Not anymore.  Oh well maybe give this game a try in a few months.

 

you might be correct about the MM, but 250 battles might not yet get you a PhD for map capping and bot management skills

 

maybe just a bachelors in shooting humans and bots

 

i certainly hadn't put it all together by 250 battles, but others had...  so you may be better than me

 

 


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K1OXD #3 Posted 20 February 2018 - 02:35 PM

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View Posttrikke, on 19 February 2018 - 10:43 PM, said:

 

you might be correct about the MM, but 250 battles might not yet get you a PhD for map capping and bot management skills

 

maybe just a bachelors in shooting humans and bots

 

i certainly hadn't put it all together by 250 battles, but others had...  so you may be better than me

 

 

 

​For this slow learner, could you share what "all together" is so that I can have it altogether?

MARS_REVENANT #4 Posted 20 February 2018 - 02:44 PM

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View Postchrishg, on 19 February 2018 - 10:09 PM, said:

I would really like to enjoy this game but.....   I feel that MM has decided which side will win before the battle starts.  6 straight games tonight where I was the top scorer on both teams but my side lost everytime.  At least in ver 1.XXX a single player could make a difference and turn the tide. Not anymore.  Oh well maybe give this game a try in a few months.

 

I doubt it is MM.   I average a 65% w/r flying mostly solo and went 12 - 1 last night flighted, and 5 - 0 solo.

 

Without a replay I cant help you understand why you are losing so many in a row, but this sounds like what is becoming the classic, "I killed 25 planes and still lost" mentality, which is most likely, staying in 1 spot shooting down planes.

 

WOWP 2.0 has 2 aspects to the game.  Skill and Strategy.  Both are important and required to win.  1.9 was just about being able to shoot down planes (1 player could carry) now, you have to be able to do that, but also figure out which planes to shoot down and where, the strategy of capturing the right sectors at the right time.

 

In short, its not MM, you need to learn the new game.  Don't forget to +1 for the tough luv.


Edited by MARS_REVENANT, 20 February 2018 - 02:44 PM.

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NorthernPorter #5 Posted 20 February 2018 - 04:49 PM

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Really feel like it's just a day to day thing with how many matches I win, regardless of MM. Some days I'll win nearly all my matches and then others its just a struggle to win one, and it's on those days finding a wing man helps a ton.

clodhoppr #6 Posted 20 February 2018 - 06:27 PM

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View PostMARS_REVENANT, on 20 February 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

 

... but this sounds like what is becoming the classic, "I killed 25 planes and still lost" mentality, which is most likely, staying in 1 spot shooting down planes.

 

In short, its not MM, you need to learn the new game.  

MARS,

I really appreciate your thoughts on this!! 

2.0 is far more than sitting in one place, or chasing enemies and shooting down planes. Its the strategy of knowing when to cap sectors and when to defend. What planes to shoot, what to ignore. Keeping an eye on where my bots and where my fellow players are etc. 

But...

Is MM random? You don't think MM stacks sides?

If MM was random then the chances of losing or winning multiple games in a row would be very low, unless you took action to improve your odds like flighting up. 

I think MM stacks sides and I think it uses bots (primarily) to do it. I also think winning and losing has a tendency to come in waves. However, improving my skills and understanding the game has greatly decreased my ups and downs (I have approx. 63% win/battles ratio). I have also realized that improving my ability to hit the target I am aiming has greatly decreased my ups and downs (improved accuracy). 

If MM is stacking sides (even to some small degree) isn't it possible the MM could make it less likely for chrishg to win the next 6 games?

I am not disagreeing with you MARS. Just curious about your input.



NorthernPorter #7 Posted 20 February 2018 - 07:30 PM

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Does MM really stacks sides?

 

I kind of think it just drops in the same amount of bots at varying but equal skill level (ie: Per team 2 ace pilots, 3 vet pilots, rest rookie pilot) and then its just down to the flow of the match and what targets/objectives present themselves in relative location to the bots.

 

Reason being is on a number of maps I'll notice the bots tend to split at the start relatively equally and go for the closest caps. Then once those areas are captured they either start fighting the other team or they start going after AI bombers. Too often I've seen half my team's bots just chasing flights of bombers and missing caps.

 

I think if you and the other humans on the team can better control the flow of the battle and eliminate the targets the bots are fixed on, you'll be able to free them up to attacks other targets.

Their skills levels only seem to determine how effective their fire is, and how determined they are in killing you (some being easier to shake off than others). It's not like they are learning but rather just running off algorithms and attacks the closet targets but on their aircraft's skill set. That's at least my observation of the bots.



MARS_REVENANT #8 Posted 20 February 2018 - 07:44 PM

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Blaming MM would mean some pretty telling player population stats.

 

For example for someone to lose consistently would mean that someone else would need to win consistently.  If you apply this thinking to the overall population, 50% of the population would have very high win % and 50% would have very low %.  You would also have to assume that the winning side is constantly going up against the losing side, because you cant have winners face winners, or losers face losers, because that would affect the win rate.

 

There are odd games that don't seem winnable, and also the odd game that you win by a landslide (that nobody seems to complain about), but neither of those are the norm.  I believe there is some balance with bot skill to compensate for a flight being only on one side, or if there is a live higher tier player one one side vs a lower tier player on the other.

 

In terms of MM being stacked, personally I don't think so.  It does set up some borked matches here and there, but that tweaked to remove them.  I like to think that I know what I'm doing, so why is it that the people that know what they are doing seem to get placed on the "stacked" side, more often than not?


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trikke #9 Posted 20 February 2018 - 08:29 PM

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View PostK1OXD, on 20 February 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

 

​For this slow learner, could you share what "all together" is so that I can have it altogether?

 

just a good understanding of the game's central equation 

 

defenses of each cap vs the armament of your chosen plane, multiplied by the different capture points 'produced' for your team if you own it

 

minus the battle time elapsed, divided by the skill levels and tendencies of your bots, then add back in the number of humans

 

and don't forget to carry the one


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IronWolfV #10 Posted 20 February 2018 - 08:34 PM

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Honestly these days I win mostly fast bombers. A26B and RB17. Why? Cause I constantly have to stay on the move flipping caps and generally playing to objectives. In fighters I end up so many times fighting for one single cap I tend to forget about caps and flipping them.

 

Heavies I tend to be caught in trying to flip caps and defending them.

 

When I do play GAA, I have more of a bomber mentality, but takes me longer to get places because many of them can be slower than dog****.

 

I honestly believe(and my 2 cents take it as ya will) it's more of a mentality thing with fighters vs other roles. I think fighters can get so wrapped trying to shut down enemy planes they tend to get tunnel vision. And I'm no exception.


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MARS_REVENANT #11 Posted 20 February 2018 - 08:43 PM

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View PostIronWolfV, on 20 February 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

Honestly these days I win mostly fast bombers. A26B and RB17. Why? Cause I constantly have to stay on the move flipping caps and generally playing to objectives. In fighters I end up so many times fighting for one single cap I tend to forget about caps and flipping them.

 

Heavies I tend to be caught in trying to flip caps and defending them.

 

When I do play GAA, I have more of a bomber mentality, but takes me longer to get places because many of them can be slower than dog****.

 

I honestly believe(and my 2 cents take it as ya will) it's more of a mentality thing with fighters vs other roles. I think fighters can get so wrapped trying to shut down enemy planes they tend to get tunnel vision. And I'm no exception.

 

This made me think of a good way to strategize.  Generally, play each plane type as you would play a GA.  For example, if you are in a GA and you capture a sector, there are no more targets for you there, so move on and capture the next sector.  Do that and you will grasp how the current game works, then you can go on to more detail about what to cap first, what to kill first.

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clodhoppr #12 Posted 20 February 2018 - 08:57 PM

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Thanks MARS.

That does make sense.

And your last question ( I like to think that I know what I'm doing, so why is it that the people that know what they are doing seem to get placed on the "stacked" side, more often than not?) is excellent; although, at times it seems that way.

"Stacked" may be a bad word to describe what MM is doing. Pre-planned, controlled, there is an agenda, may better describe what I am seeing. Like you, I do not believe that the MM, pre-battle, decides the winners and losers; however, I do think there is a rubric, Obviously it is not random, there is a device, a method to the MM madness. And, more than likely, we will never know...


Edited by clodhoppr, 20 February 2018 - 08:59 PM.


Spyshadow01 #13 Posted 20 February 2018 - 09:00 PM

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View Postchrishg, on 19 February 2018 - 09:09 PM, said:

I would really like to enjoy this game but.....   I feel that MM has decided which side will win before the battle starts.  6 straight games tonight where I was the top scorer on both teams but my side lost everytime.  At least in ver 1.XXX a single player could make a difference and turn the tide. Not anymore.  Oh well maybe give this game a try in a few months.

 

Out of your 249 battles, you've won nearly 70% of them.  Considering that, I'd say skilled players are still more than capable of making a difference.  It honestly just sounds like you had a particularly bad session.

Desmios #14 Posted 20 February 2018 - 09:30 PM

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You have to work with the bots, don't expect to solo carry to a win.

 

I felt the same way you feel a few months back.



f16falcona46 #15 Posted 20 February 2018 - 09:47 PM

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One infuriating tendency bots have is to chase bomber waves, even though they are unable to kill them effectively. Therefore, one thing I do is kill the bomber stream (even if I'm in, say, a multirole), which allows the bots to go and do something else--like flipping a cap for the team.

IronWolfV #16 Posted 20 February 2018 - 10:09 PM

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View Postf16falcona46, on 20 February 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

One infuriating tendency bots have is to chase bomber waves, even though they are unable to kill them effectively. Therefore, one thing I do is kill the bomber stream (even if I'm in, say, a multirole), which allows the bots to go and do something else--like flipping a cap for the team.

 Can't tell you how many times I've had 4-6 bots chasing my A26 or RB17 as I'm going on a bomb run. Like bots go "bomber keel eeiiittt!!!!"


This isn't dueling pistols at dawn. This is war. You sneak up behind your enemy and you bash him over the skull. I know this, so does Scar. That's why I'm gonna kill him.

-Starbuck, Battlestar Galactica


FIight #17 Posted 21 February 2018 - 01:28 AM

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View PostIronWolfV, on 20 February 2018 - 05:09 PM, said:

 Can't tell you how many times I've had 4-6 bots chasing my A26 or RB17 as I'm going on a bomb run. Like bots go "bomber keel eeiiittt!!!!"

 

That feature can be exploited, I hope all enemy bots stay after my RB-17 so my team could insta-cap all sectors.

FIight #18 Posted 21 February 2018 - 01:37 AM

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View Postclodhoppr, on 20 February 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

MARS,

I really appreciate your thoughts on this!! 

2.0 is far more than sitting in one place, or chasing enemies and shooting down planes. Its the strategy of knowing when to cap sectors and when to defend. What planes to shoot, what to ignore. Keeping an eye on where my bots and where my fellow players are etc. 

But...

Is MM random? You don't think MM stacks sides?

If MM was random then the chances of losing or winning multiple games in a row would be very low, unless you took action to improve your odds like flighting up. 

I think MM stacks sides and I think it uses bots (primarily) to do it. I also think winning and losing has a tendency to come in waves. However, improving my skills and understanding the game has greatly decreased my ups and downs (I have approx. 63% win/battles ratio). I have also realized that improving my ability to hit the target I am aiming has greatly decreased my ups and downs (improved accuracy). 

If MM is stacking sides (even to some small degree) isn't it possible the MM could make it less likely for chrishg to win the next 6 games?

I am not disagreeing with you MARS. Just curious about your input.

 

mm is definitely not random. If mm is random then winning or not completely depends on personal skill, i.e.

those who suck will lose more and those who are good at it will win almost every match. Following the result

of massive rage-quitting, which is not WG wants. mm tends to stack more ACE bots at the side with overally

lower win rate, and at the side with single human when confronting a flight, to balance the win rate, and to diversify™.

Don't expect to see totally random mm in WG product, and consider the fact that the total win rate will always stay the same,

it's not too difficult to track the change in win rate and adjust mm. That does not always work, as bots are still bots,

and there could be some way to exploit bot mechanism and break the mm control system, or to confound mm to

make it believe you are on a losing streak and you need better bots. Logging off regularly does help bring your mm

to normal.


Edited by FIight, 21 February 2018 - 01:37 AM.


trikke #19 Posted 21 February 2018 - 04:28 AM

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View PostIronWolfV, on 20 February 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

I honestly believe(and my 2 cents take it as ya will) it's more of a mentality thing with fighters vs other roles. I think fighters can get so wrapped trying to shut down enemy planes they tend to get tunnel vision. And I'm no exception.

 

absolutely this^^

 

my very few remaining flight partners almost have to slap me out of it, to break my focus on just killing planes 

 

it's embarrassing when i realize that i do this, when my friends are watching me fly around .. and then politely have to remind me of my other teammate responsibilities  

 

repeatedly 

 

they're just going to make excuses not to fly with me if i don't figure a way to fix this, because it's gotta be frustrating 

 


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Cenotaph #20 Posted 21 February 2018 - 04:38 AM

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View PostMARS_REVENANT, on 20 February 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

For example for someone to lose consistently would mean that someone else would need to win consistently.  If you apply this thinking to the overall population, 50% of the population would have very high win % and 50% would have very low %.  You would also have to assume that the winning side is constantly going up against the losing side, because you cant have winners face winners, or losers face losers, because that would affect the win rate.

 

 

I am going to assume you are quite familiar with HVAR...and their average 70%+ WR's.

 

Well I have been running into their counterparts with disturbing frequency... (people under 45%, several under 40%)

 

I know I'll jump tiers, or wait a couple min to queue, if I see the same HVAR flight too many times in a row...

 

They all seem like great folks, and I've had nice chats... but getting curb-stomped is only funny so many times in a row.

 

I also know that when I flight with good players, my opponents are likely to feel the same way... so, I think you might want to rethink your stance on population and WRs.

 

We seem to be smack in the middle of a massive imbalance on player skill... and it can have profound effects on the perception of the MM being "rigged".

 

 

Edit for clarification: We don't generally have good players vs good players... frequently the good players will avoid each other, making it that much harder on the rest of them.


Edited by Cenotaph, 21 February 2018 - 04:40 AM.

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