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Add ordnance to all fighters


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FIight #21 Posted 27 January 2018 - 04:31 AM

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View Postpyantoryng, on 26 January 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

 

GAA has lower EXP multiplier than fighters so their EXP earnings are not comparable and EXP earnings by itself has nothing at all to do with battle performance. If you want to compare EXP earning, take the "raw" mastery points rather than the EXP number...which is not recorded in stats and dependent on many factors. An epic game can yield crappy EXP because you lived all the way through.

 

You are making an assumption...that there will always be someone who knows what a player-controlled GAA is up to and able to find and eliminate them repeatedly. That is not always the case and player-controlled GAA often has free reign and made the star performance of enemy fighters an exercise in futility.

 

Can fighters constantly go solo, with no hope of any assistance, braving AA, defense plane, and potential enemy, to keep sectors contested like GAA do?

 

This is going way off topic...

 

The critical thing that concerns the patch most is that you have to get distracted when defending enemy GAAs, and

you will be disadvantageous in aerial combat. Meanwhile, you still need to get situational awareness, there are just

too much stuff fighters must do at the same time.



vcharng #22 Posted 27 January 2018 - 04:37 AM

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View Postpyantoryng, on 26 January 2018 - 06:40 PM, said:

 

GAA has lower EXP multiplier than fighters so their EXP earnings are not comparable and EXP earnings by itself has nothing at all to do with battle performance. If you want to compare EXP earning, take the "raw" mastery points rather than the EXP number...which is not recorded in stats and dependent on many factors. An epic game can yield crappy EXP because you lived all the way through.

 

You are making an assumption...that there will always be someone who knows what a player-controlled GAA is up to and able to find and eliminate them repeatedly. That is not always the case and player-controlled GAA often has free reign and made the star performance of enemy fighters an exercise in futility.

 

Can fighters constantly go solo, with no hope of any assistance, braving AA, defense plane, and potential enemy, to keep sectors contested like GAA do?

 

This is going way off topic...

 

Last time I remember (as just like you mentioned, mastery points are not recorded) GAAs do have lower mastery points as well. And from my records they also have lower CP per unit time (see note).

Bombers are even more significant, I've never had a bomber earning more than 1200 mastery (I think this has to do with the excessively strict category objective standards though), which is more than easy for fighters.

If you want to talk about sector capture, yes, attacker will have more sectors captured per game, but that's only because they can't defend one!

The thing is, we shouldn't even compare the capture speed of a fighter against an attacker, because attackers can only attack, they SHOULD be far more effective to compensate for their inability to defend, but still they are NOT faster in capping (even more true for bombers, who take 2~3 min to cap a single sector in actual battle conditions).

 

Human fighters can indeed always find and hunt down enemy GAAs as GAAs are always lit up by friendly ground units. In any map with less than 5 sectors their movements are also easily predictable even without looking at the minimap.

It's just a matter of whether this is the best thing to do, and whether the fighter player wants to hunt down enemy human GAA or not. A decent fighter pilot (not really difficult, my level and above is enough) can and will always find, engage and kill GAAs as long as he wants to. While this does not guarantee a win, it does guarantee a bad day for the GAA player.

 

As for your last question, fighters don't do that, they just hog over a single choke point and start printing cash by scoring ridiculous amount of defense kills and keeping half of the enemy team out of commission the whole game.

 

note: my F4U-4 has 5377 CP per sortie /3:31 average sortie life, so that's 5377/211=25.48 CP per second; my 265 has 5943/4:6 = 24.15 and my Spit 9 has 26.66 per second. I just hope they record win rate for separate planes, because GAAs also have noticeably lower WR, and even lower for bombers. I use T7 as there are some notable differences between the combat style of T4~T6 and T8~T10 games, where T7 is somewhere near the turning point.

 



vcharng #23 Posted 27 January 2018 - 04:40 AM

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View PostEinssniper, on 27 January 2018 - 04:31 AM, said:

there are just

too much stuff fighters must do at the same time.

You do realize that this also means that fighters CAN do too many things as well, right?

So why giving them even more job to do by letting them carry bombs? They are already busy enough. As they say, the more (over)power, the more responsibility.

 

 

On another note, I would also suggest stop using the P.1102B/IL-40P as a reference. Given the current player base and when there are no WR padder flights, T10s rarely face anything other than a single T9 human opponent (even single T10 is rare), which significantly reduces the opposition the T10 will face in average. While this benefits all T10 players, GAAs are benefited the most as they now face a significantly lower-than-normal risk of being shot down (in fact, I think my 1102 B has more crashes than occasions of being killed), thereby giving off a false impression that they can easily go unopposed.


Edited by vcharng, 27 January 2018 - 05:19 AM.


LMG #24 Posted 27 January 2018 - 06:23 AM

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View PostEinssniper, on 26 January 2018 - 11:31 PM, said:

The critical thing that concerns the patch most is that you have to get distracted when defending enemy GAAs, and

you will be disadvantageous in aerial combat. Meanwhile, you still need to get situational awareness, there are just

too much stuff fighters must do at the same time.

 

To be honest most aircraft types have a lot of stuff to do at the same time. GAAs have to predict where the enemy will be at any given time, where they should attack next, how much ordnance to spend on each target, how many shots does it take to destroy a building, how to keep the Air Defense Aircraft from drawing smiley faces on your wings, what to do if an enemy GAA shows up in visual range, and what to do if an enemy wants to use you as target practice( which actually varies depending on whether it's a bot or a player, your available weaponry and the terrain), etc., and that's what I can quickly think of right now

 

Personally I think if Multirole Fighters had a proper definition aside of "have bombs and rockets for the lulz" then Light Fighters should be allowed to carry some ordnance. Atm I can say the Hawker line could be the closest we have to what a multirole fighter should really feel like; able to do considerable damage to ground targets with both ordnance and gunfire, while still being relevant in aerial combat. It's not just the bombs/rockets that allow it to do something about that AA gun poking holes on your tail, or that armored building the GAA couldn't finish off :izmena:


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FIight #25 Posted 31 January 2018 - 11:02 AM

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View PostLMG, on 27 January 2018 - 01:23 AM, said:

 

To be honest most aircraft types have a lot of stuff to do at the same time. GAAs have to predict where the enemy will be at any given time, where they should attack next, how much ordnance to spend on each target, how many shots does it take to destroy a building, how to keep the Air Defense Aircraft from drawing smiley faces on your wings, what to do if an enemy GAA shows up in visual range, and what to do if an enemy wants to use you as target practice( which actually varies depending on whether it's a bot or a player, your available weaponry and the terrain), etc., and that's what I can quickly think of right now

 

Personally I think if Multirole Fighters had a proper definition aside of "have bombs and rockets for the lulz" then Light Fighters should be allowed to carry some ordnance. Atm I can say the Hawker line could be the closest we have to what a multirole fighter should really feel like; able to do considerable damage to ground targets with both ordnance and gunfire, while still being relevant in aerial combat. It's not just the bombs/rockets that allow it to do something about that AA gun poking holes on your tail, or that armored building the GAA couldn't finish off :izmena:

 

GAAs are much easier to control. They are slow, steady, and more forgiving compared to fighter. If you fly any of those high-altitude fighters

you are not allowed to get down and kill GAA frequently, since doing so will make you lose in aerial combat. GAAs can do much more than

fighters ATM, and only if they are not that strong some ppl would switch to fighters.



FIight #26 Posted 31 January 2018 - 11:08 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 26 January 2018 - 11:40 PM, said:

You do realize that this also means that fighters CAN do too many things as well, right?

So why giving them even more job to do by letting them carry bombs? They are already busy enough. As they say, the more (over)power, the more responsibility.

 

 

On another note, I would also suggest stop using the P.1102B/IL-40P as a reference. Given the current player base and when there are no WR padder flights, T10s rarely face anything other than a single T9 human opponent (even single T10 is rare), which significantly reduces the opposition the T10 will face in average. While this benefits all T10 players, GAAs are benefited the most as they now face a significantly lower-than-normal risk of being shot down (in fact, I think my 1102 B has more crashes than occasions of being killed), thereby giving off a false impression that they can easily go unopposed.

You can't deny the fact GAAs are easier to play. In high tier I've seen much more GAAs than fighters, and that can't be explained if not for the fact that

they are easier. They are easy planes that could potentially exploit the mm and easily win.

 


Edited by Einssniper, 31 January 2018 - 11:09 AM.


FIight #27 Posted 31 January 2018 - 11:21 AM

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There are more times for P-51 to conduct ground supporting missions

than aerial combat missions, and there are more times for a bf-109

to carry a bomb in the eastern front. To support friendly ground/naval units

is always the responsibility of a fighter pilot. Red Baron died cuz he chose

to support his troops despite the fact he is in such worsened health condition.

Your ground units do repair and maintenance jobs to give you the chance to

fly high, and you should at least pay them some thanks.



LMG #28 Posted 31 January 2018 - 03:37 PM

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View PostEinssniper, on 31 January 2018 - 06:02 AM, said:

GAAs are much easier to control. They are slow, steady, and more forgiving compared to fighter. If you fly any of those high-altitude fighters

you are not allowed to get down and kill GAA frequently, since doing so will make you lose in aerial combat. GAAs can do much more than

fighters ATM, and only if they are not that strong some ppl would switch to fighters.

 

I wouldn't really call flying a GAA forgiving. If you miscalculate a turn near something there's usually no fancy flying that can save you, unlike some fighters I've flown. And you're pretty much always flying close to something, voluntarily. That's not taking into account enemies shooting at you that you have to dodge.

 

I've said before that all it takes is one decent fighter to shut down any GAA, and so far in my experience I've been proven right. It's more noticeable at tier VIII when you're put against tier IX and the Pancake, which I call the prime GAA killer. Those are the planes I currently worry the most about, and that's because I haven't met many people flying stuff with really big cannons like the J8M or the soviet multiroles. GAAs are defenseless if the enemy doesn't give them a chance to fight back


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FIight #29 Posted 31 January 2018 - 04:48 PM

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View PostLMG, on 31 January 2018 - 10:37 AM, said:

 

I wouldn't really call flying a GAA forgiving. If you miscalculate a turn near something there's usually no fancy flying that can save you, unlike some fighters I've flown. And you're pretty much always flying close to something, voluntarily. That's not taking into account enemies shooting at you that you have to dodge.

 

I've said before that all it takes is one decent fighter to shut down any GAA, and so far in my experience I've been proven right. It's more noticeable at tier VIII when you're put against tier IX and the Pancake, which I call the prime GAA killer. Those are the planes I currently worry the most about, and that's because I haven't met many people flying stuff with really big cannons like the J8M or the soviet multiroles. GAAs are defenseless if the enemy doesn't give them a chance to fight back

 

Of course in 1v1 scenario you might not win a fighter, but if you have a flight mate enemy human fighter can't hunt you down

unless he has killed your flight mate, i.e. you are pretty much safe from enemy head hunter & no bot fighters will prioritize you

given they are programmed to shoot enemy fighters first. You are safe 80% of the time in a flight and 50% when solo, while a fighter

needs to constantly dodge shells as well as your rear guns. Besides shooting stationary ground target does not require too much

aiming skill, and all targets are there and will not change(no moving targets, and limited maps). You get increasing efficiency after

several matches.

In all-human time most ppl don't like GAAs. Why? cuz it's simply lame--ppl will hunt you down and your hp bar can't sustain the cross-fire

of 10 humans, and you have very limited impact to the victory. The increasing number of GAA is due to the reason that mostly we are

fighting bots, therefore GAAs are safer than what you might think. Bots feature less accuracy and usually less firepower, since they don't

know how to make guns non-overheating. They just aim better, and waste their engine boost based on greedy algorithm. All old vets know

to win an aerial combat greedy algorithm does not work. e.g. to hold down your mouse button does not guarantee max DPM


Edited by Einssniper, 31 January 2018 - 04:50 PM.


FIight #30 Posted 31 January 2018 - 04:59 PM

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View Postvcharng, on 26 January 2018 - 03:37 AM, said:

 

Do we even play the same game?

Even if some soviet GAAs can cap within 10 seconds (which I doubt if it's even possible with or without gold ammo), he will have to reload his ordnance, so the fastest will be the reload time, maybe with some deduction considering that the reload time is sometimes absorbed by the time en route from one sector to another.

 

And I thought a pilot as experience in aerial combat as you (who can barrel roll a P1102B behind mine) should know that no one files inside the gun arc of a GAA. It takes about 10 second for a J7W3 to shoot down a 1102B unless the latter was aware of the attack before the J7W3 commences firing. It takes significantly longer to shoot down a LF with manual turret fire, which, while possible, is still very dangerous for the GAA since it could easily crash into terrain. I am also interesting in just how "terrifying" 240 DPS could be (P.1102B's turret), compared to 800DPS of the P.1101.

 

Don't even talk about bombers, they have zero influence in the current meta. Flying low and you will be shot down just as often as a LF, and flying high will mean taking at least two waves of bombs or three to capture just one sector. Their firepower density is the lowest of all categories, and their contribution can be far too easily canceled out by just one careless friendly pilot or a couple of decent enemy fighters.

 

I'm not a very good fighter pilot, but even me in my F4U-1 or Tornado can easily outperform my own Me 265. And my Spit14 outperforms my P.1099B-2 single-handed. (all comparisons done with the "experience per sortie") Remember, we are comparing GAAs with fighters from one tier lower, and they still lose. This also agrees with what I saw about actual battle influence: just how influential could GAAs and bombers, who live in the very bottom of the food chain, be? Everything they could do, you can do more by killing them repeatedly.

 

If you don't believe how me-1102 can take a factory in 18 sec or take a CC in less than 10 second, feel free to see me perform that in the training room;

the RB-17 at t8 is pretty OP I would say, speedy, fast capping and large hp pool, coupled with powerful rear guns, even me-1099 can't out-cap it;

If a fighter loses too much hp after hunting down a GAA, he's pretty much useless;

for those who don't know how to use rear guns, even a me-1102 will be hunt down by a spitfire, I'm not kidding, most ppl do not see the huge

potential of rear guns. me-1099 at the worst case, has no problem in facing t9 LFs.






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