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Killing Yourself Effectively

squall line suicide

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Mercsn #41 Posted 24 January 2018 - 10:40 PM

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View PostMagusGerhardt, on 24 January 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

 

This suggestion sounds good on first read, but is actually full of problems that would only become evident after entering play.

 

Early squall line in a battle would completely disrupt the habits and strategies players have devised thus far.  Removing the warning for its onset would cause more angry posts from players who don't have an issue with it as is now.

The problem sounds like resistance to improvement. As zapper said, if you can win after squall in deathmatch time, what's the point of the before squall phase.

 

The problem is WG released a half-baked 2.0, just like they did with 1.0, after implementing drastic changes just prior.

 

The game took, from what I can determine, several patches to fix the dispersion, the mm was never fixed, and altitude wasn't bandaided until 4 years later with 2.0 and low altitude defense bots. 

 

Players who like the current warning/lawndart system will be able to adapt to a better mode. And, the sooner it's implemented, the less pushback there will be.

 

But, WG is going to do what they will do regardless whether players want/don't want or is good/bad overall for gameplay and the game. I really think they have a magic 8 ball sitting in the chair designated for the "lead game designer".


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Zapperguy #42 Posted 24 January 2018 - 10:49 PM

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If you need respawn at all, you're doing it wrong.

Spoiler

 



MARS_REVENANT #43 Posted 25 January 2018 - 12:36 AM

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View PostPerco_lator, on 24 January 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

EZ fix for this issue would be to force players to re-spawn with the exact same aircraft in the same state & only allow a new aircraft if they are destroyed while engaged in combat.

 

They would just purposely get shot down.

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SpiritFoxMY #44 Posted 25 January 2018 - 12:46 AM

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Personally I think punishing respawns pretty much removes its one utility of making the game more newb friendly. You might as well go back to no-respawn mode.

 

I say reward the player who doesn't respawn. That way there's an incentive to stay alive (other than worthless medals) while the less fortunate/talented don't completely get shut out of the game


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MARS_REVENANT #45 Posted 25 January 2018 - 12:53 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 24 January 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

Personally I think punishing respawns pretty much removes its one utility of making the game more newb friendly. You might as well go back to no-respawn mode.

 

I say reward the player who doesn't respawn. That way there's an incentive to stay alive (other than worthless medals) while the less fortunate/talented don't completely get shut out of the game

 

Ultimately I am after rewarding players for killing more and dying less.

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Captain_Rownd #46 Posted 25 January 2018 - 01:01 AM

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View PostMARS_REVENANT, on 25 January 2018 - 12:53 AM, said:

 

Ultimately I am after rewarding players for killing more and dying less.

 

That's kind of its own reward already. 

 



SpiritFoxMY #47 Posted 25 January 2018 - 01:31 AM

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View PostCaptain_Rownd, on 25 January 2018 - 01:01 AM, said:

 

That's kind of its own reward already. 

 

 

Uh, no.

 

As pointed out, lawndarting is a thing. Which you endorse. There are those of us who consider it a cheap move to game a system set up to make the game more accessible to newer players and it punishes players for staying alive because they now face fresh planes in their battle-scarred birds or have to actually fly across the map to get to a target instead of instantly teleporting via respawn. That's punishing staying alive as it gives a player willing to just throw away his plane on a dime a powerful mechanical advantage over people who don't. 

 

Secondly as again has been mentioned, you actually gain more credits and xp by dying a couple of times because of the way CPs and MPs work. That, again, punishes a player for simply being good because he has to work harder for his reward than someone who just flies in, kills stuff then dies to come do it again.

 

Right now the only rewards good players have are medals and their associated Tokens. And the Token value of these epic badges are a) limited to one, b) limited to one a plane. Not a reward for persistent good performance, literally an "atraboy" pat on the back which means jack ingame 


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vcharng #48 Posted 25 January 2018 - 01:39 AM

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View PostMagusGerhardt, on 24 January 2018 - 06:30 PM, said:

 

This suggestion sounds good on first read, but is actually full of problems that would only become evident after entering play.

 

Early squall line in a battle would completely disrupt the habits and strategies players have devised thus far.  Removing the warning for its onset would cause more angry posts from players who don't have an issue with it as is now.

 

Agreed, and any kind of unpredictability of respawns will mean the end of GAAs.

Removing respawn is even more out of question, unless you are removing GAAs and bombers altogether as well.

 

 

 



MagusGerhardt #49 Posted 25 January 2018 - 01:51 AM

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View PostZapperguy, on 24 January 2018 - 03:49 PM, said:

If you need respawn at all, you're doing it wrong.

Spoiler

 

 

Not according to the current game XP modifiers.

 

No matter how much XP you got there, or any other battle....you could have received more had you done what the game intended.

 

Good job, by the way, on going through a battle without getting downed.  The real downer is that you get no benefit from it.


 

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Wombatmetal #50 Posted 25 January 2018 - 01:55 AM

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I do think lawndarting is cheesy and gaming the system, I don't do it.  

 

I don't think there is any way to de-incentivize it that doesn't lend itself to trolling or punish new players. My suggestion is when you hit the squall if you have not been shot down, you get a full heal coming to you with the same parameters as the partial heal you get now. When you respawn come back at 3/4 health

 

I would also like a bonus for not getting shot down. Let's add incentives for good behavior



Captain_Rownd #51 Posted 25 January 2018 - 02:46 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 25 January 2018 - 01:31 AM, said:

 

Uh, no.

 

As pointed out, lawndarting is a thing. Which you endorse.

 

It is a thing we work with, because WG made it a thing to limit respawns.  I don't "endorse" it.  I just think it's a notch better than a spontaneous magic heal coming out of nowhere, which isn't saying much. 

 

There is an obvious reward for not getting shot down, which is that you get to keep fighting at the location of your choice, or only having a 5 second respawn, instead of a 40 second respawn plus flying back however long it takes to reach the action.  Maybe any respawn after the squall line announcement should come from further out at the corner of the map.  I'm really not interested in the XP calculation meta.  Give XP penalties for respawning...whatever.  I know when I've had a good game, because it's fun and feels worthwhile, not because of the numbers on the battle summary. 

 

Maybe have no respawn from terrain collisions starting sometime before the squall line warning.  (friendly fire may also need to be excluded or people in flights will shoot each other down or collide to get a respawn)


Edited by Captain_Rownd, 25 January 2018 - 03:12 AM.


MagusGerhardt #52 Posted 25 January 2018 - 04:33 AM

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View PostDestroyer_Suzukaze, on 24 January 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

I do think lawndarting is cheesy and gaming the system, I don't do it.  

 

I don't think there is any way to de-incentivize it that doesn't lend itself to trolling or punish new players. My suggestion is when you hit the squall if you have not been shot down, you get a full heal coming to you with the same parameters as the partial heal you get now. When you respawn come back at 3/4 health

 

I would also like a bonus for not getting shot down. Let's add incentives for good behavior

 

See, now this is a suggestion that I like and think would be better for bringing about desired behaviour changes.

 

You get good gameplay by encouraging it; not by making random changes to disincentivize and discourage people who are doing things in the game that seem more meta than skill.

 

Playing to the meta doesn't make you a skillful player...but most skillful players will take advantage of meta if it can be done.  You change that by making it either as advantageous or more by not doing the meta stuff.


 

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MagusGerhardt #53 Posted 25 January 2018 - 05:10 AM

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View PostCaptain_Rownd, on 24 January 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

Maybe have no respawn from terrain collisions starting sometime before the squall line warning.  (friendly fire may also need to be excluded or people in flights will shoot each other down or collide to get a respawn)

 

What if they get shot at by enemy AA or defense aircraft first?  See, changes like that will lead to further altered gameplay to continue to get a perceived reward.

 

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pyantoryng #54 Posted 25 January 2018 - 05:20 AM

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View PostMagusGerhardt, on 25 January 2018 - 01:51 AM, said:

 

Not according to the current game XP modifiers.

 

No matter how much XP you got there, or any other battle....you could have received more had you done what the game intended.

 

Good job, by the way, on going through a battle without getting downed.  The real downer is that you get no benefit from it.

 

You only get benefit if you get any epic achievements and you get tokens from it.

 

I think epic achievements should cough out mastery points...make surviving for the whole match add a multiplier to mastery points too...but that's going to literally shatter the economy...



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MagusGerhardt #55 Posted 25 January 2018 - 06:31 AM

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View Postpyantoryng, on 24 January 2018 - 10:20 PM, said:

 

You only get benefit if you get any epic achievements and you get tokens from it.

 

I think epic achievements should cough out mastery points...make surviving for the whole match add a multiplier to mastery points too...but that's going to literally shatter the economy...

 

For a select few, yeah it would.  But...it would be XP/credit generation that holds up that good play that is to be sought after.

 

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vcharng #56 Posted 25 January 2018 - 10:21 AM

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View PostMercsn, on 24 January 2018 - 10:40 PM, said:

The problem sounds like resistance to improvement. As zapper said, if you can win after squall in deathmatch time, what's the point of the before squall phase.

Guaranteed playability for non-aerial combatants. This is World of Warplanes, not World of Turn Fighters.

 

Also it's not resistance to improvement, as the problem of the squall line can be solved a lot more easily: what's the point of this random thing if the problem can be solved by simply giving the non-suicide players an extra life plus making airfield repairs easier?



Soylent_Red_Isnt_People #57 Posted 25 January 2018 - 11:00 PM

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View PostMagusGerhardt, on 25 January 2018 - 02:33 AM, said:

but most [..] players will take advantage of meta if it can be done.  You change that by making it either as advantageous or more by not doing the meta stuff.

This is definitely true for any game; if there is something that can be exploited most folks are going to do it, and the only solution is to close such loopholes if the publisher/organization is capable of understanding and doing so.

 

While the current token medals in 2.0 can only be ''farmed'' in tier IV or greater, it certainly hasn't stopped folks from choosing to do the daily missions with tier I, II, or III aircraft.

Likewise, WG has never been any good at understanding how OP certain vehicles are in their titles from tweak to tweak let alone removing the capability for players to platoon/flight/division such overpowered units.

 

All that being said I think myself squall is just a way to limit how long the matches can last so that folks move on to the next battle instead of simply making ten minutes be a hard duration.

That one team can ''rubber-band'' a win regardless of superiority score by shooting down all of the opposing combat group almost seems more like a loophole.


Edited by Soylent_Red_Isnt_People, 26 January 2018 - 05:03 AM.

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LMG #58 Posted 25 January 2018 - 11:33 PM

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View PostSoylent_Red_Isnt_People, on 25 January 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

All that being said I think myself squall is just a way to limit how long the matches can last so that folks move onto the next battle instead of simply making ten minutes be a hard duration.

That one team can ''rubber-band'' a win regardless of superiority score by shooting down all of the opposing combat group almost seems more like a loophole.

 

If I recall correctly, WG itself said the squall line was supposed to help losing teams manage to pull a win even when they're down in superiority. My guess is that another is to reinforce a role for fighters further into a match, when it might not be viable for them to attempt to outcapture the enemy. Overall I find it's another layer of depth to the game; whether it works as intended or not is a whole different matter


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