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Do 17 Z: What is wrong with this plane?

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SpiritFoxMY #21 Posted 14 January 2018 - 10:48 PM

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Oh, I don't know. The Do217M can one-pass a Garrison and even a Command Center if you get the angle right so I'm not sure about increasing its reload speed - it might make it OP. Agreed on the Flak and defensive gunners.

 

IMO Russians are going to be the nasty defenses guys bristling with 23mm. Yanks gonna get tons if forward guns to slaughter other bombers


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vcharng #22 Posted 15 January 2018 - 02:37 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 14 January 2018 - 10:48 PM, said:

Oh, I don't know. The Do217M can one-pass a Garrison and even a Command Center if you get the angle right so I'm not sure about increasing its reload speed - it might make it OP. Agreed on the Flak and defensive gunners.

 

IMO Russians are going to be the nasty defenses guys bristling with 23mm. Yanks gonna get tons if forward guns to slaughter other bombers

 

Uh, how? The Do 217 M can destroy 4 smaller targets at most, or one major target (radar or command post or workshop) plus two smaller targets, none of which are enough to flip a spot.

The only way I can think of to one-pass a position is to use low-altitude bombing, which will grant far better accuracy at the cost of survivability.



SpiritFoxMY #23 Posted 15 January 2018 - 02:43 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 15 January 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

 

Uh, how? The Do 217 M can destroy 4 smaller targets at most, or one major target (radar or command post or workshop) plus two smaller targets, none of which are enough to flip a spot.

The only way I can think of to one-pass a position is to use low-altitude bombing, which will grant far better accuracy at the cost of survivability.

 

It takes three bombs to take out the main radar, two to nuke the two secondary radars which leaves one to take out a fourth alternate target (ships are my favorite). Granted it takes a long, slow approach and a fair bit of luck to land them but it can be done (full disclosure: I'm running the Demolishion Expert skill on all my bomber pilots).

 

The hardest part is nailing the Main Radar drop in a way that takes out all structures in three bombs. I've only ever done that once or twice. You have to wiggle it a bit to get full blast coverage of all the structures


Edited by SpiritFoxMY, 15 January 2018 - 02:46 AM.

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vcharng #24 Posted 15 January 2018 - 02:54 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 15 January 2018 - 02:43 AM, said:

 

It takes three bombs to take out the main radar, two to nuke the two secondary radars which leaves one to take out a fourth alternate target (ships are my favorite). Granted it takes a long, slow approach and a fair bit of luck to land them but it can be done (full disclosure: I'm running the Demolishion Expert skill on all my bomber pilots).

 

The hardest part is nailing the Main Radar drop in a way that takes out all structures in three bombs. I've only ever done that once or twice. You have to wiggle it a bit to get full blast coverage of all the structures

 

Right, so it's a theoretically possible gamble...

I tend to do it the more stable way: always drop one more bomb just in case the others missed.

 

I think currently the best way to use 217M is to platoon with another one, now you really can flip a position in one pass.



LMG #25 Posted 15 January 2018 - 03:39 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 14 January 2018 - 09:54 PM, said:

Right, so it's a theoretically possible gamble...

I tend to do it the more stable way: always drop one more bomb just in case the others missed.

 

I think currently the best way to use 217M is to platoon with another one, now you really can flip a position in one pass.

 

Lately I've been considering if WG intended the German Bomber line to be sort of a "support" bomber line, where you're best at either helping or being helped by someone else. I noticed that about the new British multiroles with their big cannons and subpar handling :sceptic:


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vcharng #26 Posted 15 January 2018 - 03:47 AM

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View PostLMG, on 15 January 2018 - 03:39 AM, said:

 

Lately I've been considering if WG intended the German Bomber line to be sort of a "support" bomber line, where you're best at either helping or being helped by someone else. I noticed that about the new British multiroles with their big cannons and subpar handling :sceptic:

 

What, the Hawkers? their handling is very good actually.

Bombers are already supportive enough, putting them even more "supportive" would simply mean a nerf. In the current WOWP meta a "team player" aircraft would simply mean "lack of independent fighting capability", which flatly equals to "underpowered".



LMG #27 Posted 15 January 2018 - 04:44 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 14 January 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

What, the Hawkers? their handling is very good actually.

Bombers are already supportive enough, putting them even more "supportive" would simply mean a nerf. In the current WOWP meta a "team player" aircraft would simply mean "lack of independent fighting capability", which flatly equals to "underpowered".

 

Well, they handle worse than the Spitfires in almost every stat except firepower and HP (and speed in the case of the Tornado). They're not the best dogfighters, but they are great when the enemy isn't shooting at them. I'm certainly no fighter pilot, but I can perform on my Hurricane II, even getting some ground kills with the bombs when the skies are clear or the cap is borderline flipped. I've also escorted some GAAs around to great effect :great:

 

Anyways, I didn't say to make the bombers more supportive, I was saying the same I did with the Hawkers. They're not the best at capping on their own, but with some help they can do work. On one game I had to capture a Mining Facility with my Do 17 z alone, and by the time I was done I had to wait for the auto-repair to patch me up before getting close to the next sector. I wasn't even missing the bombs, I just could not handle taking out 6 AA emplacements while also going for the main targets with just 5 bomb loads and a fairly long recharge time. But in another game someone shot the AA emplacements for me, and suddenly I was free to actually do my job and bomb the bigger targets first, which in turn got us the cap quickly


Edited by LMG, 15 January 2018 - 04:44 AM.

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vcharng #28 Posted 15 January 2018 - 07:49 AM

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View PostLMG, on 15 January 2018 - 04:44 AM, said:

 

Well, they handle worse than the Spitfires in almost every stat except firepower and HP (and speed in the case of the Tornado). 

Uh, that means "better than Spitfire except mobility".

I don't know why, but both my Hurricane II and Tornado outperforms their respective Spitfire counterpart, even my Corsairs of T6 and T7 surpass the Spitfires on their tier.



General_Strom #29 Posted 15 January 2018 - 10:29 AM

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I like them as I shoot them down easily all the time. Love to see them.

legoboy0401 #30 Posted 15 January 2018 - 05:43 PM

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View PostGeneral_Strom, on 15 January 2018 - 02:29 AM, said:

I like them as I shoot them down easily all the time. Love to see them.

 

Yeah, I bet. You and your darned OP BF-110B. The BF-109B does the trick as well(I own it, and I went down the line specifically to get some bomber-hunting light fighters with decent armament), but strangely, I rarely see anyone use it for that purpose.

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CorvusCorvax #31 Posted 15 January 2018 - 07:33 PM

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View PostMini_Marine, on 14 January 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

 the A-26 provides cover against anything that comes up do try to shoot you down and bats clean up with it's small bombs on anything the Do 217 M didn't quite finish off.

The A-26 is hurt at distance from cannon-armed HF or LF.  My SpitV DB605 can knock down an A-26 pretty easily by staying out of its gun range while throwing cannon shells.  It takes time, but it works.  My Bf-110B knocks down pretty much any bomber it comes across with zero issues.  I had fun with my Me-410 and an A-26 - I must have spent the better part of two minutes nibbling away at that plane.  :)



CRASHChaffee #32 Posted 16 January 2018 - 12:59 AM

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i just started to really give these bombers a chance i just dont have the patients to just orbit around and dump my load asap like them cockroaches you see standing in line for food stamps downtown i like to decent strafe the targets get poor saps to chase take out ga with bombs they should have gave Germany a dive  bomber tree like Hitler intended



Mini_Marine #33 Posted 16 January 2018 - 01:43 PM

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View PostRico_CotC_, on 15 January 2018 - 07:33 PM, said:

The A-26 is hurt at distance from cannon-armed HF or LF.  My SpitV DB605 can knock down an A-26 pretty easily by staying out of its gun range while throwing cannon shells.  It takes time, but it works.  My Bf-110B knocks down pretty much any bomber it comes across with zero issues.  I had fun with my Me-410 and an A-26 - I must have spent the better part of two minutes nibbling away at that plane.  :)

 

With rear gun stabilization, the A-26 can reach out to just over 800 meters, even further once you get the relevant crew skill.

 

At that range you're going to be wasting a lot of time trying to chip away at it's hp pool, and spending that long dealing with a single plane is a great way to lose the game.



StoptheViolins #34 Posted 16 January 2018 - 02:03 PM

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That's where planes like the Su-9 come into play.  1km cannon range. Not too graceful up high, but it just needs to be within gun range.

SpiritFoxMY #35 Posted 16 January 2018 - 02:12 PM

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View PostStoptheViolins, on 16 January 2018 - 02:03 PM, said:

That's where planes like the Su-9 come into play. 1km cannon range. Not too graceful up high, but it just needs to be within gun range.

 

Its quite a risk, though. If there's a 262 up there, he'll have you for lunch.

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vcharng #36 Posted 16 January 2018 - 02:29 PM

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View PostMini_Marine, on 16 January 2018 - 01:43 PM, said:

 

With rear gun stabilization, the A-26 can reach out to just over 800 meters, even further once you get the relevant crew skill.

 

At that range you're going to be wasting a lot of time trying to chip away at it's hp pool, and spending that long dealing with a single plane is a great way to lose the game.

 

That's why you need to stay out of the gun arc, not the gun range, when carrying out anti-bomber attacks.

LMG #37 Posted 16 January 2018 - 02:36 PM

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View Postvcharng, on 16 January 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

That's why you need to stay out of the gun arc, not the gun range, when carrying out anti-bomber attacks.

 

Or be one tier higher. I've found that even my IL-20 melts when exposed to tier IX stuff


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legoboy0401 #38 Posted 16 January 2018 - 03:42 PM

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Hey guys, I just found out something last night. The German Bomber Defenses are VERY good for their tier. Give them enough time and they'll whittle anything down to 0% health.

 

I found this out in both a JU-88A-on-JU-88A engagement(his gunner was pouring rounds into me all the time, as we were in close proximity, as I don't have either of the Engine upgrades, and thus I have to stay a bit lower than I would if I had the top engine. Anyway, a Bomber-on-Bomber dogfight is certainly interesting. I almost got the kill, with myself on reasonable health, due to me having a better firing position above him, but a MIG-3 stole the kill.) and a JU-88A-on-P-38F dogfight(naturally, I lost this one, but not without a fight. I kept turning and dodging his boom-and-zoom tactics, all the while operating my gunners and blasting the heck out of him. He didn't turn very much better than I in my JU-88 did, but eventually he changed tactics and finally got me.).

 

What I discovered during these dogfights is the reason German Bomber defenses feel so sub-par, is that German Bombers rarely have the survivability to make those (actually very good)guns work their magic for more than a second or two before the Bomber gets shot down.

 

With that said, a dumb ME-209 V4 is easy pickings for a JU-88A.

 

 


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CorvusCorvax #39 Posted 16 January 2018 - 03:45 PM

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View PostMini_Marine, on 16 January 2018 - 01:43 PM, said:

 

With rear gun stabilization, the A-26 can reach out to just over 800 meters, even further once you get the relevant crew skill.

 

At that range you're going to be wasting a lot of time trying to chip away at it's hp pool, and spending that long dealing with a single plane is a great way to lose the game.

 

If it's the choice between running around, killing bots and winning, or having a cat-and-mouse with a human player for minutes on end and losing the match, I will choose the latter every single time.  Of course, if there is another human on my team counting on me to help out down below, I will do that, but if it's just me and the other human on opposite teams, I'll let the bots figure out who's going to win.

CorvusCorvax #40 Posted 16 January 2018 - 03:47 PM

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View Postvcharng, on 16 January 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

 

That's why you need to stay out of the gun arc, not the gun range, when carrying out anti-bomber attacks.

 

That can be hard to do when the bomber is in capable human hands.  Bot bomber pilots are meat on the table, unless they have an escort.





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