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Why light fighters rule the meta


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mnbv_fockewulfe #1 Posted 11 January 2018 - 02:24 AM

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IMHO this is what the hard counters are currently in the game.

As you can see, the LF has the most versatility when it comes to affecting the outcome of the battle.

Any suggestions to fix this or do you disagree with me?

 


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vcharng #2 Posted 11 January 2018 - 02:44 AM

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Well this explains the difficulties faced by SOME HFs and MRs, but not necessarily all of them.

Think about earlier British HFs, they hit the ground as hard as they hit the bombers (probably harder as they can't always reach the bombers up there). And Bf 110B, who has no problem killing any kind of aircrafts.

There are also some LFs who can't hit the HF due to low altitude limits, e.g. the Zeroes.

I also have no problem fighting against LFs in my Tornado and Corsairs.

 

I think this graph is better used (with some minor corrections) as an introduction to the roles for beginners than as a way to explain why LFs are more dominant.



StoptheViolins #3 Posted 11 January 2018 - 03:12 AM

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T9-10 the planes get closer to the same numbers.

mnbv_fockewulfe #4 Posted 11 January 2018 - 03:17 AM

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The graph more represents how an entire team of planes interact with each other and what roles I find the different classes to be most proficient at. Yes, you will have specific planes that break the mold, but considering how the MM puts together matches you will find that all together, that specific plane class is best at countering the objective to winning which I've specified.

Yes, some HFs can butcher LFs, and yes, some MR can suppress a ground objective, but they can't all do it in a manner that can affect the outcome of the battle.

HFs take too long to shoot down more maneuverable LFs, and fly too fast to take out GA quickly.


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LMG #5 Posted 11 January 2018 - 04:11 AM

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What are the triangles and squares? Because GAAs in general can deal with pretty much anything on the ground


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Hurk #6 Posted 11 January 2018 - 04:42 AM

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i believe its the mines that have no air defense at all? put one on every map in a central area, so fighters waste all their time flying past it.
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Destroyer_Suzukaze #7 Posted 11 January 2018 - 05:02 AM

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I find MR can swing the outcome better because they are versatile. 



LMG #8 Posted 11 January 2018 - 05:35 AM

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View PostHurk, on 10 January 2018 - 11:42 PM, said:

i believe its the mines that have no air defense at all? put one on every map in a central area, so fighters waste all their time flying past it.

 

In that case don't GAAs do their best there? Bombers have to deal with 6 AA emplacements shooting at them, but GAAs don't have anything shooting back to worry about
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vcharng #9 Posted 11 January 2018 - 06:36 AM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 11 January 2018 - 03:17 AM, said:

 

HFs take too long to shoot down more maneuverable LFs, and fly too fast to take out GA quickly.

HFs (X)

Me 262s (O)

Get into your Bristol 146 and see how long you can survive before my Bf 110B

Or change that to Spit V and Me 410. Or P-38J.

As for GA, pick one of the GAs and try to survive any German HFs at the same tier. They will be able to kill you, it's just gonna take a while for the multiple passes needed.



HazeGrayUnderway #10 Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:07 AM

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For Tier VII and below OP, I'd agree with you.  From what I'm seeing with VIII-X matches, the lines blur a bit and some lines have drastic changes.  In addition, I notice more fights taking place at higher altitudes at the high tier matches compared to previous tiers.  The altitudes people fight are more varied at high tier.

 

A bulk of the play is around the mid tiers and incidentally that is where the OP's chart is on the money.

 

Also, this isn't about going in and picking off one plane in the cap and calling it a victory.  This is about the planes that dominate a cap.


Edited by HazeGrayUnderway, 11 January 2018 - 07:22 AM.


Destroyer_Suzukaze #11 Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:33 AM

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View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 10 January 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:

For Tier VII and below OP, I'd agree with you.  From what I'm seeing with VIII-X matches, the lines blur a bit and some lines have drastic changes.  In addition, I notice more fights taking place at higher altitudes at the high tier matches compared to previous tiers.  The altitudes people fight are more varied at high tier.

 

A bulk of the play is around the mid tiers and incidentally that is where the OP's chart is on the money.

 

Also, this isn't about going in and picking off one plane in the cap and calling it a victory.  This is about the planes that dominate a cap.

 

I also think the meta will shift a bit with the bomber line being opened up. My MiG 3, P51A, and I 220 have no problem with the max altitude of bombers, and I may just play them a lot this weekend. And my 410.  I think the altitudes will spread out a bit

HazeGrayUnderway #12 Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:53 AM

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View PostDestroyer_Suzukaze, on 11 January 2018 - 07:33 AM, said:

 

I also think the meta will shift a bit with the bomber line being opened up. My MiG 3, P51A, and I 220 have no problem with the max altitude of bombers, and I may just play them a lot this weekend. And my 410.  I think the altitudes will spread out a bit

 

Oh, I think moar bombers will broaden things up also.  Moar bombers means a job that Mustangs, Bf109s, Heavy Fighters, etc, are specialized in dealing with.  High flying bombers flip off most light fighters as they can't really go after them (*cough* Spit V 605 thread *cough*).  Bombers left unmolested at high altitude can be very bad to your team's efforts.

 

You're flying a high flying A-26, RB-17, etc.  You look at the team rosters and none of the enemy players are flying any high altitude fighters, nor heavy fighters.  Sit back folks, this is gonna be a fun ride in the bomber.



vcharng #13 Posted 11 January 2018 - 08:00 AM

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View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 11 January 2018 - 07:53 AM, said:

 

Oh, I think moar bombers will broaden things up also.  Moar bombers means a job that Mustangs, Bf109s, Heavy Fighters, etc, are specialized in dealing with.  High flying bombers flip off most light fighters as they can't really go after them (*cough* Spit V 605 thread *cough*).  Bombers left unmolested at high altitude can be very bad to your team's efforts.

 

You're flying a high flying A-26, RB-17, etc.  You look at the team rosters and none of the enemy players are flying any high altitude fighters, nor heavy fighters.  Sit back folks, this is gonna be a fun ride in the bomber.

 

Given the fact that I just defeated a human 302 with my Do 217 twice in the same sortie, I doubt how good the Mustangs can be in shooting down bombers.

They can escort their own bombers, though.



HazeGrayUnderway #14 Posted 11 January 2018 - 08:10 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 11 January 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

 

Given the fact that I just defeated a human 302 with my Do 217 twice in the same sortie, I doubt how good the Mustangs can be in shooting down bombers.

They can escort their own bombers, though.

 

You can kill all kinds of stuff with planes but yes, some are better suited to it than others.  Still, it's the threat of high altitude bombers completely offsetting down and low T&B planes and a "meta" higher up.  Hell, Mustangs would be perfect in covering bombers high up.  Your bomber interceptor is getting pelted by those A-26 gunners already, bleeding speed from that angled approach to climb altitude, a Mustang pouncing on you isn't what you exactly need on top of that :teethhappy:

Zhoyzu #15 Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:14 AM

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attack aircraft can ruin the day of any plane in its altitude.

 

The tool is only as useful as the wielder can imagine a use for it.

Ive defended caps with my Me265 by killing other low flying craft. they hit like a heavy fighter.



SpiritFoxMY #16 Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:18 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 11 January 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

 

Given the fact that I just defeated a human 302 with my Do 217 twice in the same sortie, I doubt how good the Mustangs can be in shooting down bombers.

They can escort their own bombers, though.

 

I think people are still getting the hang of how to deal with bombers (I shot down a full HP P38F in my Ju88A after all). I think light fighters will have the advantage of being more capable of repositioning for an attack at a bomber's blind spots during an attack at the cost of HP and firepower. Certainly multiroles wallow like pigs at the extremities. 

 

Still... excited to see how mass bomber use will change the game 


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vcharng #17 Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:59 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 11 January 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

 

I think people are still getting the hang of how to deal with bombers (I shot down a full HP P38F in my Ju88A after all). I think light fighters will have the advantage of being more capable of repositioning for an attack at a bomber's blind spots during an attack at the cost of HP and firepower. Certainly multiroles wallow like pigs at the extremities. 

 

Still... excited to see how mass bomber use will change the game 

 

*cue Battlefield 1942 music

*cue air raid siren

*cue a whole team of bombers overhead

 

Right, anyway, from what I did to that poor 302, I don't think attacking a bomber would be the best thing for a Mustang to do, with most bombers probably having Defensive Fire (just how much firepower does a Mustang still have after that 30% penalty?), but if they work in a team it would be a different story. Currently the problem for HFs to pick off bombers is that they will need too much time climbing to bombers altitude, forcing them to divert from the furball 1000~2000 meters below those bombers. And yes, these HFs do make a difference in those furballs.

However, it is possible that those furballs below 1000m will no longer be important after mass usage of bombers came into existence, or that those furballs will be moved to higher altitudes. If this happens it will be an interesting shift in the playstyles of all existing aircraft types.



The_World_Needs_A_Hero #18 Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:35 PM

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MR's and LF's are on an equal playing field in this version.



Colddawg #19 Posted 11 January 2018 - 02:24 PM

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Not utilizing a HF to attack GAs is a bad use of a heavy fighter.  Also, MRFs and HFs will strafe fighters or even should act as bait to take out the more maneuverable LFs.

Keep your head on the swivel.


SpiritFoxMY #20 Posted 11 January 2018 - 05:06 PM

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View PostColddawg, on 11 January 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

Not utilizing a HF to attack GAs is a bad use of a heavy fighter.  Also, MRFs and HFs will strafe fighters or even should act as bait to take out the more maneuverable LFs.

 

They aren't hard counters though, which is what the OP is talking about. 

 

I personally subscribe to the Deathball Theory of Runaway Imbalance which is just a really fancy way of saying I think light fighters in dense clumps have an oversize ability to affect the battle simply because they can rapidly track targets and shift between multiple bandits in a manner that other airplanes cannot, hence a faster killing and, by extension, faster capping of targeted zones. Once that deathball breaks up, the game becomes much more even as the individual airplanes can battle it out on each other's individual strengths - the lower average speeds of light fighters becomes an issue as they can no longer rapidly clear each others' tails or swiftly gang up on a target while HFs and MRs can now use their speed to disengage-reengage without having to worry about being ganked by a million zeroes at once.  

 

The thing is, because deathballs are so efficient at capping, there's every incentive for light fighters to dive headlong into the scrum, creating a piece of whirling death for everyone else. But in such a scenario, as soon as one side starts losing, it snowballs RAPIDLY out of control as the team that wins the deathball is now all clumped up (and thus able to mutually support) while the losing team streams back piecemeal. So there's every incentive for players to try to win a deathball. But that simply puts the slow turners at a disadvantage as they cannot use their own massive advantages to great effect. 

 

The solution, of course, should be for the non-turners to pick off other things outside the deathball while the light fighters duke it out, but with the exceptions of GAAs and the new bombers, they cannot push caps by themselves fast enough to force the deathball to respond; usually one side has won and the other in the process for being picked apart piecemeal before a HF or MR can successfully flip a cap and so they too become prey for the roving bands of light fighters. 

 

So there needs to be something to force the deathball apart - GAAs are one part of that, but because they fly in low, they are just as vulnerable to being swarmed as any other airplane and they're too slow to flip caps rapidly enough to force a deathball to disband. Bombers are potentially part of the solution by forcing the fight up to altitude where the deathball has a hard time maintaining itself. Certain light fighters suddenly become competitive again but their low hitpoints means that they are more likely to be of use keeping heavy fighters away from bombers but most importantly, the deathball fragments as a result of the varying max altitudes of the various participants and the light fighters are forced to engage in more even fights with their other hanger mates.

 

That's the theory at any rate. I'm sleepy and half drunk so... also none of what I said is original, so there's that as well.


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But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end





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