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American P-51 line.... pretty awful


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pittwsix #1 Posted 07 January 2018 - 08:56 PM

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I've gone up most of the light fighter lines, a lot of them are very good and fun to play. They seem to all have good traits which makes them very effective in game, however the P-51 line doesn't seem to have any real strength.

Their suppose to be fast and have good altitude performance, okay that's great, but in 2.0 most planes stay in low altitudes which drags the P-51 down to a level it can't really compete in.  The big weakness being its maneuverability, which is on par with most multiroles.  The P-51 would be okay if it had cannons, but the short range machine guns means you have to stay behind someone for a good while to actually kill them.

 

The P-51 while pretty fast, isn't fast enough to boom and zoom, one you can't kill anything in one quick pass and 2 pretty much every fighter in the game and turn and still keep in gun range of you.  So what is the point of this line?  Is it to just stay at high altitude and attack bombers?  I can tell you that is pretty lame and not fun game play.  

 

One other line which has similar stat lines is the Mig I line, which are very fast, high altitude performance but big difference is they have long range cannons.  So boom and zoom tactic works well with this line, being able to quickly nuke a target and get back up to a safe distance is much more achievable than with the P-51 line.

 

The P-51 line could use a buff for sure, perhaps significantly increase its speed and machine gun range.  Or maybe increase its maneuverability some, so it can get in behind targets and have the ability to escape as well.  

Just like every american line they all have terrible maneuverability, I think all the P-51, Corsair, and Thunderbolt lines could use a little boost to their performance to make them actually playable and fun to play.



ArrowZ_ #2 Posted 07 January 2018 - 09:14 PM

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The guns is the main disappointment. High firing rate, high velocity. but low alpha damage, low range, low accuracy. They don't crit as much as the larger calibers. But can rng heavy at times. You're right in saying it would need a range buff. But the way these developers work - they improve one thing, nerf the next. Give and take scenario. I would rather they nerf the ROF, remove shot gun effect, increase damage close range, default at max range and increase range.

Accuracy can be fixed by equipment and pilot skills and a 100% fully trained pilot at that.

 

I'm on the other fence about the performance tho. Despite the firepower issue. The mustangs and the jet fury and sabre are one of the best high flyers in this game. Just takes time to get used to their bnz and energy fighting playstyle. 


Edited by ArrowZ_, 07 January 2018 - 09:17 PM.

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General_Lee_Miserable #3 Posted 07 January 2018 - 09:15 PM

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Yeah... lots has changed. In pre 1.0 beta days, the P51D was king. Players would flight up in 3's with those things. Even after they were nerfed a bit, they were still strong, as the game favored high alt fighters and energy management. Now, its all turn and burn scrum. Spits, Yaks, Japanese planes, etc were almost laughable in 1.9. Now they are the new kings. 

Blucraft #4 Posted 07 January 2018 - 09:18 PM

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I would agree that they're not "as" maneuverable but they are really fun "for me" anyway.  They're not point and shoot, you've actually got to pick your targets and manage boost.  Here's how mine is setup:

 

P51A setup.JPG

 

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GeorgePatton #5 Posted 07 January 2018 - 09:52 PM

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My personal issue with the P-51 lines are these:

 

  1. Lack of bare-metal skin for them - come on...
  2. Lack of firepower - they should be tearing things apart in seconds at close range. At distance, sure - give them less damage (only for the sake of balance... historical research says they should do well at range) but in close, nothing should survive a barrage of lead from 6x .50s on a Mustang.

 

They are pretty fast and agile for fighters at high altitude, which is good. Problem is when they go down low they're unable to use their advantages unless they only want to take 1-2 seconds of firing at a target before pulling back out. You're lucky if you take an opponent down 100 HP at that rate.

 

The P-51 line used to be amazing when we had 3-man flights - one guy would bait, the other two would kill. Rinse and repeat. As a result, the plane was nerfed - as all good things tend to be around here. Also, the P-51 line should be multi-role with bombs and rockets. Come on, Wargaming... The thing was used into wars beyond WWII for ground attack. The USAAF was the first to use 'swing-role' aircraft - aircraft that went in as attack and dumped ordinance and then played the fighter/escort role. Let's see some historical accuracy where it won't hurt gameplay.

 

 

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Braincage #6 Posted 07 January 2018 - 10:18 PM

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I love playing the P51's. I prioritize heavy fighters and bombers, although a good player bomber will rip you apart.

I'm always staying high and watching for wounded fighters. If I see one I dive on it and finish it off. I just love the fast hit and run play style.

I use Covering, Engine Tuning and Polish on mine although I may replace covering with a gun sight and see if my damage improves.

So far I've really enjoyed this grind, even the tier 6 with only 4 machine guns. I seem to do quite well. 



Kiwiav8r #7 Posted 08 January 2018 - 12:47 AM

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My tip in the US fighter line is to get really close before opening fire, less than 1000 feet (300m) range.  The P-51 especially has the speed and maneuverability to stay with most aircraft at that range initially, and if they start to out turn you, pull a high speed yo-yo and you're back in the saddle.  The trick is recognizing the change in aspect early enough to make the move at the right time.

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HazeGrayUnderway #8 Posted 08 January 2018 - 01:11 AM

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That's a recurring theme with US fighter, multirole lines.

 

Decent but not good enough.



Onyx #9 Posted 08 January 2018 - 01:12 AM

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What's sad is that the P-80A is basically the P-51H if it didn't suck.  It doesn't take much.  Better accuracy, improved firepower (around 10%), better acceleration, and it would be a pretty solid plane.  But as it is the Mustang line (and presumably 109 line) need serious buffs.  The last "good" Mustang line plane was the P-40 at tier 5, when it had enough firepower relative to the health of planes at the tier to actually be useful.

 

View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 07 January 2018 - 05:11 PM, said:

That's a recurring theme with US fighter, multirole lines.

 

Decent but not good enough.

 

 

Corsair line's fantastic, no idea what you're talking about.


Edited by Onyx, 08 January 2018 - 01:14 AM.


Pogo68 #10 Posted 08 January 2018 - 02:45 AM

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The Merlin Mustangs should have a higher max altitude than the RB-17.
DICTA BOELCKE for WoWP
    1. Try to secure the upper hand before attacking.
    2. Always continue with an attack you have begun
    3. Open fire only at close range, and then only when the opponent is squarely in your sights
    4. You should always try to keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be deceived by ruses
    5. In any type of attack, it is essential to assail your opponent from behind
    6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try run away from his attack, but fly to meet it
    7. When over the enemy's lines, always remember your own line of retreat
    8. It is better to attack in groups of four or six. Avoid two aircraft attacking the same opponent

HazeGrayUnderway #11 Posted 08 January 2018 - 02:46 AM

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View PostOnyx, on 08 January 2018 - 01:12 AM, said:

Corsair line's fantastic, no idea what you're talking about.

 

Corsairs are dog food.

They're not particularly fast.

They're not particularly maneuverable in the light fighter oriented tiers they are at.

 

They can't outrun, outdogfight a Spitfire or even many other Turn & Burn fighters, which are wildly popular in the same tiers Corsairs are at.

 

Spitfire will even run down an F2G long enough to kill it if it thinks Engine Boost will save it.  And when it realizes it cannot outrun the Spit, then he tries to turn.  Then he's REALLY FOCKED.  The only thing the Corsairs realistically can run away from are Zeroes.

 

Corsairs can't even intercept high altitude bombers.

 

Which all falls into what I said earlier.

"Decent but not good enough."  They think they can fight until a real fighter comes along.


Edited by HazeGrayUnderway, 08 January 2018 - 02:51 AM.


Onyx #12 Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:14 AM

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View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 07 January 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

 

Corsairs are dog food.

They're not particularly fast.

They're not particularly maneuverable in the light fighter oriented tiers they are at.

 

They can't outrun, outdogfight a Spitfire or even many other Turn & Burn fighters, which are wildly popular in the same tiers Corsairs are at.

 

Spitfire will even run down an F2G long enough to kill it if it thinks Engine Boost will save it.  And when it realizes it cannot outrun the Spit, then he tries to turn.  Then he's REALLY FOCKED.  The only thing the Corsairs realistically can run away from are Zeroes.

 

Corsairs can't even intercept high altitude bombers.

 

Which all falls into what I said earlier.

"Decent but not good enough."  They think they can fight until a real fighter comes along.

 

So?  The F2G can get in a furball and still pick and kill targets.  It's decent at horizontal boom and zooming, it has good firepower compared to many fighters (the Spit 14 is a notable exception), and its bombs can literally win caps and games if used correctly by sniping high value targets and then being a competent fighter.

 

The P-51H can basically guarantee the XF5U will die with nothing the XF5U can reasonably do, but that doesn't mean the XF5U is a bad plane or the P-51H a good one.  Same thing with the F2G and most corsairs.  The F2G needs buffs to acceleration and speed, and a tiny cannon buff, but it's definitely not a bad plane.  The 190 line and P-47 line have vastly more problems than the Corsair line, as do many light fighters.

 

The sheer amount of pushing power the F2G has complimented by its threatening firepower and decent enough turning to bring it to bear renders it a solid, if flawed plane.  There are substantial amounts of planes with vastly worse problems though.


Edited by Onyx, 08 January 2018 - 03:22 AM.


_Bruiser_ #13 Posted 08 January 2018 - 07:35 AM

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View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 08 January 2018 - 02:46 AM, said:

 

Corsairs are dog food.

They're not particularly fast.

They're not particularly maneuverable in the light fighter oriented tiers they are at.

 

They can't outrun, outdogfight a Spitfire or even many other Turn & Burn fighters, which are wildly popular in the same tiers Corsairs are at.

 

Spitfire will even run down an F2G long enough to kill it if it thinks Engine Boost will save it.  And when it realizes it cannot outrun the Spit, then he tries to turn.  Then he's REALLY FOCKED.  The only thing the Corsairs realistically can run away from are Zeroes.

 

Corsairs can't even intercept high altitude bombers.

 

Which all falls into what I said earlier.

"Decent but not good enough."  They think they can fight until a real fighter comes along.

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StoptheViolins #14 Posted 08 January 2018 - 02:29 PM

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P-51's do well in diagonal maneuvering and at higher altitudes.  I had a P-51D try to out turn my Yak 15 down low.  I chatted up the fellow to let him know that if he gets the Yak into the Orange he might be able to do that.  Despite a lot of whining among vets planes do play very differently.

vcharng #15 Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:31 PM

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View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 08 January 2018 - 02:46 AM, said:

 

Corsairs are dog food.

They're not particularly fast.

They're not particularly maneuverable in the light fighter oriented tiers they are at.

 

They can't outrun, outdogfight a Spitfire or even many other Turn & Burn fighters, which are wildly popular in the same tiers Corsairs are at.

 

Spitfire will even run down an F2G long enough to kill it if it thinks Engine Boost will save it.  And when it realizes it cannot outrun the Spit, then he tries to turn.  Then he's REALLY FOCKED.  The only thing the Corsairs realistically can run away from are Zeroes.

 

Corsairs can't even intercept high altitude bombers.

 

Which all falls into what I said earlier.

"Decent but not good enough."  They think they can fight until a real fighter comes along.

 

You've been complaining about Corsairs a lot recently, and I've talked to you many, many times, just like the others.

It's about time you realize that what doesn't work for you may still work for others.

 

I out-turned a SpitV in my F4U-1 the other day (human, if bots count then I out-turn them several times every day), but your prejudice has probably gone too deep inside for you to listen when I explain how it's done.



Zergling #16 Posted 08 January 2018 - 06:42 PM

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I started the F4U-1 recently and I'm enjoying it.

 

Fw 190s... not so much.



Onyx #17 Posted 09 January 2018 - 12:08 AM

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View PostStoptheViolins, on 08 January 2018 - 06:29 AM, said:

P-51's do well in diagonal maneuvering and at higher altitudes.  I had a P-51D try to out turn my Yak 15 down low.  I chatted up the fellow to let him know that if he gets the Yak into the Orange he might be able to do that.  Despite a lot of whining among vets planes do play very differently.

 

You'd have to be blind not to realize planes play differently.  But there are a couple issues.

 

On paper, planes look similar.  Since TURN TIME was truncated to the nearest second, it's especially difficult to notice differences that are still there.  Considering the difference can be something like 10.8s (P-51) and 10.3s (109), it's very significant.

 

Planes have stall speed listed, but not optimum speed range.  The XF5U stalls at 60kph (lol) but it goes yellow closer to 380kph.  iirc, my friend said the Me 262 stalls closer to 500ish kph.

 

Meanwhile, the 109z or P-51s have shotgun cannons while the XF5U shoots all but laser accurate.

 

The F2G accelerates like it's dragging a lead weight with boost, the Spit 14 accelerates like it's a jet.  The P-80A accelerates like it's a rocket though.  Raw acceleration flat out isn't even brought up in stats but it's easily the most important stat for many different planes.  After that, bomb/rocket reload times.  The game flat out doesn't show you critically important stats like cannon up time, acceleration, optimum speed range, reload time, accuracy, boost time.  You can't even correctly build a plane until you fly it a couple times and get a couple games in it to realize what it needs.  It's silly and no small amount annoying because a lot of the differences are hidden in those stats.


Edited by Onyx, 09 January 2018 - 12:27 AM.


Lt_Huber #18 Posted 11 January 2018 - 02:32 AM

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I have found the P-51A and P-51D to be by far some of my most favorite and best performing airplanes in the whole game. Ill admit the 4 gun layout is ROUGH in T6 and T7 stock. I used free XP of the P51D to skip the body grind and jumped straight to 6 guns. I load her up with Lightweight, Optics, and Control surfaces and shes a beauty. Fast, decently agile, and ive found great overall DMG output. It doesnt have the burst, but you can sit on someones tail and fire that gun FOREVER and the DMG really adds up. I dislike the Killsteal aspects of this game, but this plane is excellent for it. Youll find yourself cleaning up the bottom 40% or less HP a lot of the times after burst guys overheat or the boom and zooms have finished their dive run. You rack up mastery points really fast just by securing more kills than other planes, which the game values fairly heavily, its not just an arbitrary number like in Worships.

StoptheViolins #19 Posted 11 January 2018 - 03:18 PM

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From the Dev Blog:

 

Block Quote

 As for altitude fighters like Mustangs, the main issue with them at the moment is that they barely have any targets at their altitude. The appearance of bombers that will be freely available for research will remedy this situation.

 

 



Zergling #20 Posted 11 January 2018 - 06:25 PM

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View PostStoptheViolins, on 12 January 2018 - 01:18 AM, said:

From the Dev Blog:

 

Won't work; Mustangs don't have the guns or hitpoints to adequetely deal with bombers like the A-26 or RB-17.






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