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Tomahawk IIb missing roundels on top surfaces of the wings


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HazeGrayUnderway #1 Posted 03 January 2018 - 04:54 AM

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The Tomahawk IIb is missing the roundels on the top surfaces of the wings.

J311yfish #2 Posted 03 January 2018 - 06:10 AM

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You will not find wing-top roundels for most aircraft of China -- RoCAF in particular.  There are a few exceptions.  Sources listed here.


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HazeGrayUnderway #3 Posted 03 January 2018 - 07:10 AM

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http://www.cbi-theat...ing_tigers.html

 

Had to do some digging for that, because finding any period picture of them with any view of the top of the wings wasn't a common thing.


Edited by HazeGrayUnderway, 03 January 2018 - 07:19 AM.


Wombatmetal #4 Posted 03 January 2018 - 07:45 AM

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Certainly seems like they had them

 

 

 


Edited by Destroyer_Suzukaze, 03 January 2018 - 07:45 AM.


Wombatmetal #5 Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:03 AM

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This is a good shot

 

http://flyingtigersus.ning.com/photo

 


Edited by Destroyer_Suzukaze, 03 January 2018 - 08:04 AM.


J311yfish #6 Posted 03 January 2018 - 11:47 AM

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From American Volunteer Group Colours and Markings, by Terrill J. Clements (Osprey 2001):

 

"When the AVG's Tomahawks were uncrated at Mingaladon airfield, they were completely bereft of national markings of any kind.  The masking mats used by Curtiss had the locations for insignia incorporated into the pattern so that they could be easily and consistently added upon final assembly.  These were laid out according to British specifications.  According to Pentecost, his men marked Chinese insignia on the first few aeroplanes that were assembled, but this practice was discontinued because of the time and effort required.  It is also likely that the British opposed anything that raised the profile of this not-so-secret operation any more than absolutely necessary." (Clements, 15)

 

"One old account mentions rumours of British pressure to remove the Chinese insignia after hostilities had commenced, and photos of a few aeroplanes assembled in the first weeks do show evidence of this.  But two of the last aeroplanes assembled (number 99, delivered on [11/22/1941], and number 92, delivered [11/28]) also had patches of an off-white colour on the undersides of their wings, although these were perhaps the results of repairs rather than markings changes." (Clements, 15)

 

There is more that can be said about this, from the same source; here are some bullets to save time:

-- secret order signed by Roosevelt 12/23/1940 authorizing what would become the AVG

-- H81-A-2 Tomahawks from CAMCO, despite being labeled as H81-A-3 by Curtiss records

-- 36 Tomahawks shipped 01/1941, arrived 05/1941

-- 33 Tomahawks shipped 02/1941, arrived 06/1941

-- 31 Tomahawks shipped 03/1941, arrived 07/1941

-- 1st AVG officially established 08/01/1941

-- shark teeth painted on late 1941 (more detail on this and flying tiger emblems effectively date the aircraft in-game)

-- of 3 squadrons, 2 had the armament of the aircraft in game; one squadron had 7.92mm's instead of 7.62mm's

-- P-40E from USAAF stocks in West Africa; 4 RoCAF roundels painted over USAAF roundels

-- Tomahawks reclaimed by USAAF 07/1942

 

Also, I could be mistaken on this point, but the aircraft in that last picture, aircraft #104, could be P-40E from USAAF stocks, based on the number of Tomahawks delivered above.

 

Also, one reason that roundels were not painted on top by RoCAF (earlier aircraft) had to do with the poor quality of blue paint which faded easily in the sun.  This is mentioned in the source identified above.

 

If you are wanting to prove a case that the paint job is an error despite all evidence above -- for example, to claim that the date of the 'flying tiger' insignia being on the aircraft does not correspond to the dates in which they had 2 roundels only -- you would want to distinguish between the different models of P-40 received, and you would want to try to narrow down the dates exactly.  I think that the evidence here so far suggests that it can be left as is, which happens to be consistent with other aircraft of China.


Edited by J311yfish, 15 January 2018 - 02:52 PM.

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J311yfish #7 Posted 15 January 2018 - 02:43 PM

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From documentary on Amazon (Prime) -- Fei Hu - The Story of the Flying Tigers.

 

26:51 - 27:03 = armorer Chuck Baisden: "We had no airplanes.  The airplanes were assembled at Rangoon and flown up.  When the first planes got in there, we didn't have any tools!  We used tools that we took out of the trucks! and that's not tools to work on an aircraft."

30:18 - 30:30 = early video (in color) showing no roundels on top of the wings

32:03 - 32:53 = pilot Charlie Bond sees the British magazine 'The Illustrated Weekly of India' (dated 11/1941); on the cover is a P-40 with shark teeth, from the Royal Australian Air Force; this was the inspiration for the AVG to adopt shark teeth.


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