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HazeGrayUnderway #21 Posted 06 January 2018 - 04:27 AM

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View PostLMG, on 06 January 2018 - 12:26 AM, said:

 

Huh, I haven't actually thought about that. However, I'm yet to find a GAA that can properly do an immelmann turn and engage an enemy that's within 600m range :sceptic:. Maybe the IL-10 or the 265

 

Those guys are rare and I remember trying to run down an IL-10 with my Corsair.  He had distance with Engine Boost then did that loop.  Surprised the hell out of me because most will try to run, or settle for doing as much ground target damage before I kill them.  This guy though made it a joust.  I maneuvered to get out of his forward heavy firepower then tried to turn quickly back into his rear, but he kept on speeding, separated, then tried the same d*mn thing again.  Again, this is rare but some of those dudes are slick mother f*ckers.

Moggytwo #22 Posted 06 January 2018 - 10:14 AM

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View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 06 January 2018 - 04:27 AM, said:

 

Those guys are rare and I remember trying to run down an IL-10 with my Corsair.  He had distance with Engine Boost then did that loop.  Surprised the hell out of me because most will try to run, or settle for doing as much ground target damage before I kill them.  This guy though made it a joust.  I maneuvered to get out of his forward heavy firepower then tried to turn quickly back into his rear, but he kept on speeding, separated, then tried the same d*mn thing again.  Again, this is rare but some of those dudes are slick mother f*ckers.

 

You're right, the faster GA's who can maintain distance prevent the high loops, and can also turn quickly to head on in which case you need to bug out fast.  If you are up against a well played fast GA like this, you're in trouble in both an MR and fighter.  Heavies can tear them up of course, but usually they are reluctant to come right down.

Edited by Moggytwo, 06 January 2018 - 10:15 AM.


Onyx #23 Posted 07 January 2018 - 02:58 AM

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View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 02 January 2018 - 12:03 PM, said:

Look at the recommendations so far:  Low and mid altitude dogfighters.

 

The beautiful thing about bombers?  You can fly high enough and flip them all the finger and carry out your job.  Not too many play the high altitude aircraft like Mustangs, 109s, Heavy Fighters.  Even among those that do, there's a surprising amount that don't know how to properly climb altitude and do a proper intercept.

 

There's the Turn & Burn in the Cap Meta.  High altitude bombers don't play that game.  Nothing like seeing a bunch of dogfighters like Spitfires, Zeroes holding a cap, but you got A-26, RB-17, Do 217M flying high above telling them to f--k off.

 

The fun thing is, every high-alt fighter (Mustang, 109, MiGs) are garbage at actually hunting bombers.  The Spitfire is actually a better bomber hunter than the P-51 because it has gun range and actual DPS compared to the P-51.  Against a remotely competent gunner or bomber player, the Mustand and 109s are basically food.  Bomber hunting is the realm of heavies exclusively.  Thankfully, even bizarre, strange, out of place heavies like the XF5U do a solid job of making bombers sad, and you don't need to set up a proper intercept against any bomber short of an RB-17 specced for some maneuver and maximum speed.  The RB-17 basically being hideously overpowered.  It seriously needs a kick in the teeth with how good its bombload, altitude, speed, and turret all is.  It's mostly the turret breaking it though.  But the RB-17 and A-26 are all but untouchable to a P-51 or 109, because the turrets will just take them out to lunch, wine and dine them, get them nice and drunk on a juicy target, and then kill them without any mercy.

 

View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 02 January 2018 - 10:49 PM, said:

GA's are also extremely solid choices.  Sure, they can get chewed up by fighters, etc.  But they can do a lot of damage quickly to a cap.  This is especially so with the more "hardened' caps like Mining Facilities.  I mean, what's a Zero and a Spitfire going to do over a Mining Facility?

 

Good GA players that go around where the fight isn't flipping caps is also annoying and must be dealt with by someone.  Not to mention the power of GAs go up as you get higher in the tiers.  They sport stronger, longer ranged guns, they sling some powerful ordnance.  They reload their ordnance faster than Multirole and Heacy Fighter aircraft, on top of already having nasty gun loadouts.

 

The game is dominated by cap play, so solid GAs are always useful as they can lay waste to them.

 

The German and Russian GA lines are both great in their own ways.  By association, Bombers are part of this deal also.  They target the same things as GAs, the means is just different.

 

You may have issues with finding good use out of Hvy Fighters, Multiroles, Boom & Zoom tactics in a cap oriented game.  But there is always a use for solid GA aircraft.  And they only get nastier as the tiers go up.

 

Depends on the heavy, but playing them as a boom and zoomer ironically is not the correct way to use them if you want to cap.  Albeit you want to actually zoom if you're at risk of being caught.  It's paradoxical but you can take a 16s turn time heavy into a turn fight and win provided you go about it correctly and stick to distracted targets.  But back to your main point, GAs.

 

The problem with GAs is almost entirely that they're useless towards winning a game until they're absolutely mandatory (with bombers/payloads) to win them.  And the problem with German GAs is that they're garbage due to low payload and an inability to actually push objectives in anything remotely resembling a reasonable amount of time.  The German GAs are not good, and most GAs are bad until about tier 7, where you are all but guaranteed maps where you need GAs (or bombers/multiroles) to actually win.

 

And the only GA you want are the Ilyushin line because the German ones can't push objectives fast enough.  The advantage of the German line is they're semi-competent, if slow, heavy fighters while still being quick moving from target to target.  But if you want to actually win games quickly, there are vastly better planes for pushing objectives.  Such as the RB-17, the A-26 (which has an awful bombload for pushing GAs by bomber standards, but is very good otherwise), or the Ilyushin line in general.

 

The meta demands speed in capping objectives, and German GAs take way too long compared to Soviet GAs.  So you either use them as bad fighters while waiting on the bombload or you're just flat out dragging the team down.

 

View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 05 January 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

 

Those guys are rare and I remember trying to run down an IL-10 with my Corsair.  He had distance with Engine Boost then did that loop.  Surprised the hell out of me because most will try to run, or settle for doing as much ground target damage before I kill them.  This guy though made it a joust.  I maneuvered to get out of his forward heavy firepower then tried to turn quickly back into his rear, but he kept on speeding, separated, then tried the same d*mn thing again.  Again, this is rare but some of those dudes are slick mother f*ckers.

 

The Il-10's a squirley plane by GA standards, but if you want to see an "attacker" that will humble you for choosing to target it, look no further than the Il-10M.  While its payload is lackluster by GA standards by tier 8, the plane has a 13.1 second turn time and 680 DPS while still having 900 HP.  Which means it can out-turn many heavies its tier while being gunned as well as the XF5U and having better health.  The plane is absolutely ridiculous.  And did I mention the 120 DPS turret with 800m range?  'cause it has that too.

 

Most GAs can serve as competent fighters, but most player GAs don't realize they can, and should, defend themselves quite aggressively.  You don't need to suicidally push a cap unless your push will actually flip it, but taking your GA on a hunting trip is actually a very effective way to push a cap during downtime.  It's the one thing the German GAs don't fail out loud at, and the Ilyushins aren't exactly bad at it either.  The only tactic more effective than this that I've observed GAs do is something even bots do:  fly in formation.  Their tail turrets are weak individually but if you get 2 or 3 GAs on top of each other, an attacking LF is going to have a very bad day trying to kill you.



LMG #24 Posted 07 January 2018 - 04:28 AM

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View PostOnyx, on 06 January 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

The problem with GAs is almost entirely that they're useless towards winning a game until they're absolutely mandatory (with bombers/payloads) to win them.  And the problem with German GAs is that they're garbage due to low payload and an inability to actually push objectives in anything remotely resembling a reasonable amount of time.  The German GAs are not good, and most GAs are bad until about tier 7, where you are all but guaranteed maps where you need GAs (or bombers/multiroles) to actually win.

 

And the only GA you want are the Ilyushin line because the German ones can't push objectives fast enough.  The advantage of the German line is they're semi-competent, if slow, heavy fighters while still being quick moving from target to target.  But if you want to actually win games quickly, there are vastly better planes for pushing objectives.  Such as the RB-17, the A-26 (which has an awful bombload for pushing GAs by bomber standards, but is very good otherwise), or the Ilyushin line in general.

 

The meta demands speed in capping objectives, and German GAs take way too long compared to Soviet GAs.  So you either use them as bad fighters while waiting on the bombload or you're just flat out dragging the team down.

 

So far I can say that German GAAs can push most caps fairly easilly with a bit of precision. I'm up to tier VIII, and I've found the bombs are strong enough to deal with specific armored ground targets that allow them to capture zones fairly easilly, and for the ones that need some extra firepower you don't have to wait for the next group for as long as the soviet ones. It is possible to capture all sectors with 4 bombs or less, depending on the type. If you get to shoot down an air defense aircraft, it's even faster. They can't do it as fast as soviet GAAs, but they're still Ground Attack Aircraft for a reason. Bombs-aside, the 30s are surprisingly capable of dealing damage to armored buildings, and they chew through soft ones faster than pacman through vulnerable ghosts. It's all a matter of hitting the right target with the right weaponry.

 

I remember when I got to the Me 265 I hated every moment of it, until I got in tune with the aircraft and what it could do. Same with the Me 329, and now I just rip sectors apart if given the chance. I guess you could say I found what the aircraft was good at, and exploited it :playing:


Edited by LMG, 07 January 2018 - 04:29 AM.

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vcharng #25 Posted 07 January 2018 - 12:38 PM

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View PostLMG, on 07 January 2018 - 04:28 AM, said:

 

So far I can say that German GAAs can push most caps fairly easilly with a bit of precision. I'm up to tier VIII, and I've found the bombs are strong enough to deal with specific armored ground targets that allow them to capture zones fairly easilly, and for the ones that need some extra firepower you don't have to wait for the next group for as long as the soviet ones. It is possible to capture all sectors with 4 bombs or less, depending on the type. If you get to shoot down an air defense aircraft, it's even faster. They can't do it as fast as soviet GAAs, but they're still Ground Attack Aircraft for a reason. Bombs-aside, the 30s are surprisingly capable of dealing damage to armored buildings, and they chew through soft ones faster than pacman through vulnerable ghosts. It's all a matter of hitting the right target with the right weaponry.

 

I remember when I got to the Me 265 I hated every moment of it, until I got in tune with the aircraft and what it could do. Same with the Me 329, and now I just rip sectors apart if given the chance. I guess you could say I found what the aircraft was good at, and exploited it :playing:

 

German attackers are solid, I just don't understand why people keep saying they are inferior.

I can't cap all sectors with 4 bombs from my 265, I'm probably not as good as you, but I still find the 265 fairly handy when you want to clear the way.

I mean, why bother using only 4 bombs when you have a reload every 50 seconds? Just drop them whenever you have a worthy target!



trikke #26 Posted 07 January 2018 - 02:50 PM

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i cannot keep myself on task in the Eule...  i'm too distracted by all the LFs that stray too low in front of me

 

i keep telling myself that i'm helping the team by killing them, but i'm not

 

the task discipline is not strong with this one


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pyantoryng #27 Posted 07 January 2018 - 03:17 PM

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View Posttrikke, on 07 January 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

i cannot keep myself on task in the Eule...  i'm too distracted by all the LFs that stray too low in front of me

 

i keep telling myself that i'm helping the team by killing them, but i'm not

 

the task discipline is not strong with this one

 

Just tell yourself that your team's fighters are too incompetent to perform their task...:sceptic:



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Kiwiav8r #28 Posted 07 January 2018 - 08:12 PM

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View PostThe_World_Needs_A_Hero, on 03 January 2018 - 07:27 AM, said:

 

Speaking about fighters only... 

 

1) Spitfire line. Tiers 4 thru 8.

 

View PostMercsn, on 03 January 2018 - 08:21 AM, said:

Spitfires are great.  And, regarding the "up until tier 8" comment...there's currently not any reason to go higher than that. 

 

I guess I need an explanation because I love the Attacker.  IMO its better than the FJ-1, Yak-19 and La-160 (the other Tier IX fighters I own).  For me it has the right amount of speed, firepower and survivability.  The others tend to lack in one department by comparison.


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LMG #29 Posted 07 January 2018 - 11:48 PM

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View PostKiwiav8r, on 07 January 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

I guess I need an explanation because I love the Attacker.  IMO its better than the FJ-1, Yak-19 and La-160 (the other Tier IX fighters I own).  For me it has the right amount of speed, firepower and survivability.  The others tend to lack in one department by comparison.

 

The other day I met 3 attackers while on my Me 329 during the event. For a moment I felt like my aircraft was made out of wet paper :amazed:


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crzyhawk #30 Posted 08 January 2018 - 12:26 AM

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View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 02 January 2018 - 08:03 PM, said:

Look at the recommendations so far:  Low and mid altitude dogfighters.

 

The beautiful thing about bombers?  You can fly high enough and flip them all the finger and carry out your job.  Not too many play the high altitude aircraft like Mustangs, 109s, Heavy Fighters.  Even among those that do, there's a surprising amount that don't know how to properly climb altitude and do a proper intercept.

 

There's the Turn & Burn in the Cap Meta.  High altitude bombers don't play that game.  Nothing like seeing a bunch of dogfighters like Spitfires, Zeroes holding a cap, but you got A-26, RB-17, Do 217M flying high above telling them to f--k off.

 

That's why the Spitfire V DB 605 is so nice.  It has it's cake and eats it too.

HazeGrayUnderway #31 Posted 08 January 2018 - 12:57 AM

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View Postcrzyhawk, on 08 January 2018 - 12:26 AM, said:

 

That's why the Spitfire V DB 605 is so nice.  It has it's cake and eats it too.

 

It's a very good and exceptional case.  Spitfire handling and German powerplant performance.  Spitfire at that same tier has none of the high altitude performance.

Onyx #32 Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:28 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 07 January 2018 - 04:38 AM, said:

 

German attackers are solid, I just don't understand why people keep saying they are inferior.

I can't cap all sectors with 4 bombs from my 265, I'm probably not as good as you, but I still find the 265 fairly handy when you want to clear the way.

I mean, why bother using only 4 bombs when you have a reload every 50 seconds? Just drop them whenever you have a worthy target!

 

It's mostly a speed issue.  The Ilyushin line has enough firepower to drop a base quickly without strictly needing to reload.  German GAs (especially tier 5/6) can't do anything quickly except get across the map, relatively speaking.  The 265 is a fun plane but compared to a well played Ilyushin, it's lacking.

 

View Postpyantoryng, on 07 January 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

 

Just tell yourself that your team's fighters are too incompetent to perform their task...:sceptic:

 

To be fair, they probably are. :hiding:  Plus, any attacker that can kill a LF that flies casually in front of them is doing their job quite well.  It's a good thing to do that.

Edited by Onyx, 08 January 2018 - 03:39 AM.


LMG #33 Posted 08 January 2018 - 07:13 AM

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Actually the Ju 88 P can still do work thanks to that cannon's rate of fire. With proper usage it can take down a mining facility in four passes; with near-perfect control I think it can do it in two or three depending on the map. Aside of that, it's one hell of a companion for another GAA or a bomber. It also has a habit of erasing fighters it hits with the big gun
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vcharng #34 Posted 08 January 2018 - 07:59 AM

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View PostOnyx, on 08 January 2018 - 03:28 AM, said:

 

The 265 is a fun plane but compared to a well played Ilyushin, it's lacking.

Well everyone says that but I've never encountered an IL-8 or 10 who outperforms me in my 30 hours flying Me 265.

I think another issue is that above T7, maps are significantly larger, a problem the Ilyushins can't cope with until T9 (and then the Messerschmitts got even faster)



Zergling #35 Posted 08 January 2018 - 08:09 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 08 January 2018 - 05:59 PM, said:

Well everyone says that but I've never encountered an IL-8 or 10 who outperforms me in my 30 hours flying Me 265.

I think another issue is that above T7, maps are significantly larger, a problem the Ilyushins can't cope with until T9 (and then the Messerschmitts got even faster)

 

The problem with the 265 is that it just isn't good as an attacker; it only has 2x 250 kg bombs with 50 second reload.

 

If the bombs had 25 or 30 seconds reload, that'd be fine, but with 50 seconds it often struggles to cap unless there are easy aircraft it can kill to speed the cap up.

 



SpiritFoxMY #36 Posted 08 January 2018 - 08:24 AM

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View PostZergling, on 08 January 2018 - 08:09 AM, said:

 

The problem with the 265 is that it just isn't good as an attacker; it only has 2x 250 kg bombs with 50 second reload.

 

If the bombs had 25 or 30 seconds reload, that'd be fine, but with 50 seconds it often struggles to cap unless there are easy aircraft it can kill to speed the cap up.

 

 

IMO it's alright as an attacker if you go for the soft caps like Garrisons which you can flip fairly easily. It struggles against contested caps or caps that have a lot of hard targets to kill. But it does fine as a raider.

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vcharng #37 Posted 08 January 2018 - 08:27 AM

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View PostZergling, on 08 January 2018 - 08:09 AM, said:

 

The problem with the 265 is that it just isn't good as an attacker; it only has 2x 250 kg bombs with 50 second reload.

 

If the bombs had 25 or 30 seconds reload, that'd be fine, but with 50 seconds it often struggles to cap unless there are easy aircraft it can kill to speed the cap up.

 

 

Flew 30 hours on 265, didn't feel that way. Unless each and every of the cap points you are trying to do is a mining plant.

In non-T8 games the 265 simply drops 2 hard target sets and then start wiping out soft targets, and there are plenty of them unless it's a plant you're trying to cap.

And you don't even need to stay there until it's capped, just move to the next one while waiting for reload.

And you can seriously capture a forward airfield in a 265, something the Ilyushins never could.



Onyx #38 Posted 08 January 2018 - 08:52 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 08 January 2018 - 12:24 AM, said:

 

IMO it's alright as an attacker if you go for the soft caps like Garrisons which you can flip fairly easily. It struggles against contested caps or caps that have a lot of hard targets to kill. But it does fine as a raider.

 

You know what's better at tacking garrisons?  Light fighters like the Spitfire.  They can get there faster, kill air targets with or without their team's help, and cap it without needing to attack ground targets.  They can do that too anyways if they need to.

 

Saying the Me 265 is great at attacking soft targets is like saying it's great at being a terrible attacker.  You don't win games from attacking light targets.  You win them by taking plant, mil base, and command.  All of which are heavily hardened targets.  The 265 isn't completely useless against these, but compared to an Il-8's bombload, it does have a hand tied behind its back for pushing it quickly.



vcharng #39 Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:28 AM

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View PostOnyx, on 08 January 2018 - 08:52 AM, said:

 

Saying the Me 265 is great at attacking soft targets is like saying it's great at being a terrible attacker.  You don't win games from attacking light targets.

Oh yes you do.

The only kind of position you are forced to shoot at hard targets is the plant, that's why I said "unless each and every position you face are plants."

For garrisons the 265 simply drops one bomb for each "house-tent" sets (the one with 3 hard targets and 3 soft targets, minimum softening with guns needed), and clear out all the soft targets. Job done. In fact I think this will leave you one tiny step before flipping, but your teammates should be able to do the rest, or you can always start shooting at air defense bots.

For military bases and CCs, drop both bombs on the biggest target group and again start wiping out soft targets, it will be flipped.

For airbases, take out the tower with bombs first, there's only two AA guns with hard targets left, and by the time you cleared everything else your bombs should've been reloaded.

For forward airfields, there are no hard targets to begin with, and you will need to take down at least one air defense plane anyway.

And in fact even if you need a second pair of bombs it's just fine, flipping a point alone in 60 seconds (50 for reload and others for positioning) is fast enough, the Ilyushins are probably still on their way here. In fact I need about 90 seconds to flip one garrison in my 1102 B (because it is NOT agile enough to shoot air defense fighters and I have to shoot at one set of AA gun with hard sections), but it is still very efficient.

 



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View Postvcharng, on 08 January 2018 - 06:27 PM, said:

Flew 30 hours on 265, didn't feel that way. Unless each and every of the cap points you are trying to do is a mining plant.

In non-T8 games the 265 simply drops 2 hard target sets and then start wiping out soft targets, and there are plenty of them unless it's a plant you're trying to cap.

And you don't even need to stay there until it's capped, just move to the next one while waiting for reload.

And you can seriously capture a forward airfield in a 265, something the Ilyushins never could.

View Postvcharng, on 08 January 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

Oh yes you do.

The only kind of position you are forced to shoot at hard targets is the plant, that's why I said "unless each and every position you face are plants."

For garrisons the 265 simply drops one bomb for each "house-tent" sets (the one with 3 hard targets and 3 soft targets, minimum softening with guns needed), and clear out all the soft targets. Job done. In fact I think this will leave you one tiny step before flipping, but your teammates should be able to do the rest, or you can always start shooting at air defense bots.

For military bases and CCs, drop both bombs on the biggest target group and again start wiping out soft targets, it will be flipped.

For airbases, take out the tower with bombs first, there's only two AA guns with hard targets left, and by the time you cleared everything else your bombs should've been reloaded.

For forward airfields, there are no hard targets to begin with, and you will need to take down at least one air defense plane anyway.

And in fact even if you need a second pair of bombs it's just fine, flipping a point alone in 60 seconds (50 for reload and others for positioning) is fast enough, the Ilyushins are probably still on their way here. In fact I need about 90 seconds to flip one garrison in my 1102 B (because it is NOT agile enough to shoot air defense fighters and I have to shoot at one set of AA gun with hard sections), but it is still very efficient.

 

I'm flying my 265 right now, and it requires both bombs to kill the hard tent targets in garrisons. Combined with the anemic guns, the plane takes way too long to cap a garrison, nevermind something like a plant or mil base.

 

 






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