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transitioning from horizontal to vertical turnfight a valid tactic?


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trikke #1 Posted 20 December 2017 - 03:07 AM

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i got pulled from a horizontal to vertical TF the other day         i forget what he was flying and i forget what i was flying, but...

 

should i be attempting that in some planes, and not in others?

 

i don't recall what happened in the end, but i had just never seen it before, and i def grew more uncomfortable as i realized what he was doing 

 

 


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SpiritFoxMY #2 Posted 20 December 2017 - 03:20 AM

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Does climb rate affect vertical turnfights? 

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mnbv_fockewulfe #3 Posted 20 December 2017 - 03:23 AM

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Yes, at least it used to. Planes with greater climb rate do better in vertical loops.

A vertical loop should look something like an egg shape. Tighter at the top, wider at the bottom. You need to be careful not to have a prolonged series of vertical loops because you will lose energy faster than in a horizontal turn.


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Mercsn #4 Posted 20 December 2017 - 06:42 AM

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I ended up in a 1v3 (or maybe 4, lost track, too many red arrows on top of mine) outside of a zone.  

 

I was in a P-40 and knew I wasn't going to be able to dive and run nor win any turn contest. One of the enemy was an xp-77 and the others were also more maneuverable than me.

 

Since we were out of a zone, I wanted to live as long as possible, hoping the bots could do something useful while I had these guys tied up. I know at least one was human, maybe two. Again, not much time to try and sort them out.

 

One thing I do to try and avoid incoming damage, once an enemy has me beat in a turn fight, is roll my wings to give the incoming tracers a narrower profile to hit.   Well, a natural extension of this is to simply begin turning in the vertical.  My wings were parallel to the horizon and I was inverted. So I just "pulled back on the stick" (I use M+KB), and began a loop in the vertical plane. 

 

We were near some terrain witj different heights, so I figured I'd see how brave the humans were and if maybe a bot would crash. 

 

So, I'm looping and moving the camera around trying to see where they are, in relation, and see someone lined up a shot again. So, another roll of the wings and back into a more horizontal turn.  I think once near the terrain, I managed to reverse and that seemed to not get punished like it normally would because they had to deal with avoiding collision with terrain and each other.

 

I was switching back and forth vertical, horizontal, using yaw to bring to nose down very fast to switch into a diving loop or using yaw to pull the nose up to tighten a turn and go into a climbing loop.  Just doing anything I could to keep these 3 from getting a stable shot, hoping they'd crash or my bots would wander by.

 

This went of for what felt like forever, with them just getting little chips in my hp bar.  It was probably a minute, I'd guess.  It was long enough that I had time to think, "hey, I'm still alive. This is working pretty well, defensively".

 

I can't say whether my manuevering in the vertical really helped or if they were more distracted by the terrain and each other.

 

In the end my bots did not wander by and my luck ran out.  My bots didn't even do anything useful with the time I bought them distracting these guys.

 

In my experience with 2.0's camera and controls it is simply much easier to follow someone into vertical manuevers and keep the aim reticle on them. In the past, the camera would do weird stuff and if you couldn't fly with it inverted, you'd lose track of the target or newer-to-air-combat types would lose their nerve.  It enabled me to fight more or same maneuverable enemies more effectively than my plane's stats would indicate.

 

In the current version, there's usually very little payoff in going into or switching between vertical and horizontal.  Even my once favorite wing-over seems useless. As I yaw to bring the nose up to tighten the turn, the enemy just seems to drag his nose right along after my plane.  So, the controls, at least mouse control, anyways, seems to negate the advantage such maneuvering might give.  

 

But, I still fiddle with it because moving in 3D is more like flying and because if that guy is more maneuverable, I've got nothing to lose trying to throw off his aim or keep him from getting around on me any way I can.  I keep hoping I'll find a way to make these sorts of maneuvers useful.

 

Trikke, if I had to guess the outcome of what you explained, I'd say you just followed him with the mouse and gunned him down if you were already turning inside of his radius. 

 

 


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The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

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KloudRains #5 Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:23 PM

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It matters far more how you maneuver relative to the other guy than what is your maneuver plane relative to the horizon. The above comments mostly show lack of grasp of split plane maneuvering. The idea of split plane is to do your maneuvers outside of the maneuver plane being used by the foe - split his plane. Last time I looked, a couple years ago, the Wikipedia coverage of split plane maneuvering was presented quite well. The fundamental is that, by using a properly selected turning plane with reference to the turning plane of the foe, we are turning much tighter in his turning plane - meaning you can work into his six despite that his aircraft can turn better side by side. A high-speed yo yo is a fine example. If you go into a simple loop I can just turn off to the side and intercept you "back over there." This is somewhat like a high speed yo yo with everything shifted 90 degrees relative to the horizon.

Does not much matter which machines are in the fracas. It matters what your machine is doing relative to that of the foe. This is illustrates how the F-86s could out turn Mig-15s ( with much lower wing loading) during the Korean War and enjoyed a 14-1 kill ratio.

The better pilot will factor in the vector of gravity at any give part of the split plane maneuvers, accordingly blend flaps, boost and flight control deflection. No way do you want to do just a simple loop, using fixed controls, trying to fly a perfect circle as in an acrobatic air show. Next time you are in a hassle, take on a white plane off to the side if you can. Then play with the boost, flaps and amount of back pull. You will find that boosting while unloaded (not pulling g's) will yield much better accel. So, boost with nose down and not turning hard, then off with boost whilst bringing in hard turn and maybe some flaps... watch the nose swing right around. Pull some lead and hose him. Rinse and repeat till he blows. You can play around with combinations of these controls until it becomes close to second nature. Throw in the tactical situation and you can have fun all day just honing this package of skills. Then apply some thinking based upon overall situational awareness and you can enjoy being a formidable opponent.

 

 

"Throw a nickel on the grass ..."

 


Edited by KloudRains, 20 December 2017 - 02:07 PM.


trikke #6 Posted 20 December 2017 - 01:24 PM

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View PostKloudRains, on 20 December 2017 - 07:23 AM, said:

The better pilot will factor in the vector of gravity at any give part of the maneuvers, accordingly blend flaps, boost and flight control deflection. No way do you want to do just a simple loop, using fixed controls, trying to fly a perfect circle as in an acrobatic air show.

 

well, i did do that fairly well, i think...    some kind of deep-seated-self-preservation reptile brain took over, and i could 'feel' the need to alternate wep and flaps

 

we were right at the edge of a furball, so maybe/probably he or i was sniped by a nearby guy, but i honestly don't recall

 

i believe he was in the early 109, and i would have been in something turnie burnie but not a great climber, because that's all i can fly, sadly

 

it was interesting to watch... hadn't seen it before or since at my tiers that i fly, so i thought that i would ask the experts!


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Pogo68 #7 Posted 20 December 2017 - 06:39 PM

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Get a joystick with rudder and throttle controls.

Even a cheap one will do.

 

Turn off the sideslip compensation

Slave the view to the plane so that the top of the plane is always pointed up and the horizon moves around it.

It will make controlling the bird a lot easier.

 


Edited by Pogo68, 20 December 2017 - 06:41 PM.

DICTA BOELCKE for WoWP
    1. Try to secure the upper hand before attacking.
    2. Always continue with an attack you have begun
    3. Open fire only at close range, and then only when the opponent is squarely in your sights
    4. You should always try to keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be deceived by ruses
    5. In any type of attack, it is essential to assail your opponent from behind
    6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try run away from his attack, but fly to meet it
    7. When over the enemy's lines, always remember your own line of retreat
    8. It is better to attack in groups of four or six. Avoid two aircraft attacking the same opponent

mnbv_fockewulfe #8 Posted 20 December 2017 - 08:39 PM

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View PostPogo68, on 20 December 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

Get a joystick with rudder and throttle controls.

Even a cheap one will do.

 

Turn off the sideslip compensation

Slave the view to the plane so that the top of the plane is always pointed up and the horizon moves around it.

It will make controlling the bird a lot easier.

 

I cannot for the life of me fly with a joystick in 3d person mode. I have to be sitting the the seat to feel like I'm flying.:B


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Mercsn #9 Posted 20 December 2017 - 08:41 PM

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View PostKloudRains, on 20 December 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

It matters far more how you maneuver relative to the other guy than what is your maneuver plane relative to the horizon. The above comments mostly show lack of grasp of split plane maneuvering. The idea of split plane is to do your maneuvers outside of the maneuver plane being used by the foe - split his plane. Last time I looked, a couple years ago, the Wikipedia coverage of split plane maneuvering was presented quite well. The fundamental is that, by using a properly selected turning plane with reference to the turning plane of the foe, we are turning much tighter in his turning plane - meaning you can work into his six despite that his aircraft can turn better side by side. A high-speed yo yo is a fine example. If you go into a simple loop I can just turn off to the side and intercept you "back over there." This is somewhat like a high speed yo yo with everything shifted 90 degrees relative to the horizon.

Does not much matter which machines are in the fracas. It matters what your machine is doing relative to that of the foe. This is illustrates how the F-86s could out turn Mig-15s ( with much lower wing loading) during the Korean War and enjoyed a 14-1 kill ratio.

The better pilot will factor in the vector of gravity at any give part of the split plane maneuvers, accordingly blend flaps, boost and flight control deflection. No way do you want to do just a simple loop, using fixed controls, trying to fly a perfect circle as in an acrobatic air show. Next time you are in a hassle, take on a white plane off to the side if you can. Then play with the boost, flaps and amount of back pull. You will find that boosting while unloaded (not pulling g's) will yield much better accel. So, boost with nose down and not turning hard, then off with boost whilst bringing in hard turn and maybe some flaps... watch the nose swing right around. Pull some lead and hose him. Rinse and repeat till he blows. You can play around with combinations of these controls until it becomes close to second nature. Throw in the tactical situation and you can have fun all day just honing this package of skills. Then apply some thinking based upon overall situational awareness and you can enjoy being a formidable opponent.

 

 

"Throw a nickel on the grass ..."

 

The point of my post is that things like yo-yos, wingovers, split-s, etc just don't really work any more to throw off an attacker's aim or allow you to cut inside the enemy's flat, contstant radius turn.  

 

Split plane maneuvering is ineffective, now, because the enemy just follows you. Since he has his camera following you, his plane is following you.  The only exception I've seen is if you can get a very bad player to overshoot a scissors maneuver.  But, this requires you to bleed energy  (slow down).  Slowing down just makes you an easier target for anyone folliwing you who is not bad and for anyone else nearby who might want to shoot at you.  And, bots don't fall for it either.  And, if the bots are faster, they'll just ram you. 

 

WG says they didn't change the flight modeling, just the different stats of planes. I haven't played since 1.0. So, they may well have changed it in the last 3 years. If not, then they did change it with 2.0. Moving between vertical and horizontal, typical aerial maneuvering that used to be effective, energy gain and bleed, etc all feel very different than I remember.  And the net effect is that going into the vertical or back into horizontal to split the plane of maneuver just doesn't do much, except slow your plane down more if you pitch your nose up.  (But, again, whoever is following you is losing the same speed and just following you).  

 

Some guys who've played thousands of battles throughout that whole period say 2.0 FM changed, and my gut says yes too, even though I wasn't here for 1.9.


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

MelBrooks #10 Posted 20 December 2017 - 09:52 PM

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View PostMercsn, on 20 December 2017 - 03:41 PM, said:

The point of my post is that things like yo-yos, wingovers, split-s, etc just don't really work any more to throw off an attacker's aim or allow you to cut inside the enemy's flat, contstant radius turn.  

 

Split plane maneuvering is ineffective, now, because the enemy just follows you. Since he has his camera following you, his plane is following you.  The only exception I've seen is if you can get a very bad player to overshoot a scissors maneuver.  But, this requires you to bleed energy  (slow down).  Slowing down just makes you an easier target for anyone folliwing you who is not bad and for anyone else nearby who might want to shoot at you.  And, bots don't fall for it either.  And, if the bots are faster, they'll just ram you. 

 

WG says they didn't change the flight modeling, just the different stats of planes. I haven't played since 1.0. So, they may well have changed it in the last 3 years. If not, then they did change it with 2.0. Moving between vertical and horizontal, typical aerial maneuvering that used to be effective, energy gain and bleed, etc all feel very different than I remember.  And the net effect is that going into the vertical or back into horizontal to split the plane of maneuver just doesn't do much, except slow your plane down more if you pitch your nose up.  (But, again, whoever is following you is losing the same speed and just following you).  

 

Some guys who've played thousands of battles throughout that whole period say 2.0 FM changed, and my gut says yes too, even though I wasn't here for 1.9.

 

Mercsn,

 

The P51 line and 109/209 German line could vertical roll the crap out of the other fighters due to the flight characteristics of these planes: speed. energy retention, and handling at altitude. One of my biggest letdowns to 2.0 during open and closed testing was the removal of unique flight characteristics each line / aircraft possessed and the severe altitude compression. I patiently wait for some of these mechanics to reverse and restore each particular aircraft line / model unique flying abilities. Alas, I feel I might wait for a long time.



trikke #11 Posted 21 December 2017 - 12:50 PM

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View PostPogo68, on 20 December 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

Get a joystick with rudder and throttle controls.

Even a cheap one will do.

 

Turn off the sideslip compensation

Slave the view to the plane so that the top of the plane is always pointed up and the horizon moves around it.

It will make controlling the bird a lot easier.

 

 

what is slideslip compensation, and why would it be turned on by default?

 

if i'm a confirmed mouser, would turning it off help me with aiming?


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SpiritFoxMY #12 Posted 21 December 2017 - 01:36 PM

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View Posttrikke, on 21 December 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

 

what is slideslip compensation, and why would it be turned on by default?

 

if i'm a confirmed mouser, would turning it off help me with aiming?

 

Planes aren't any different from cars - they have forward momentum in the direction they were last heading. A sideslip is when you turn the nose just enough that you maintain forward momentum while having the nose off axis to one side or the other. I would assume the main reason for sideslip compensation is to simplify to act of actually flying the plane in a high speed turning fight. To begin with, improper handling of a slip would quickly lead to an aerodynamic stall as your plane is effectively acting as a giant drag chute during the slide (among other things).

 

Of course, being able to control crap like that would also give a good pilot an edge in a turning fight since you would be able to rapidly decelerate and change directions as necessary outside the flight envelope that your basic controls lock you into.


Edited by SpiritFoxMY, 21 December 2017 - 01:36 PM.

***

But a truce to this mournful story

For death is a distant friend

So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


Mercsn #13 Posted 26 December 2017 - 07:55 AM

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I will add that going into vertical plane near the ground may be useful in getting your enemies to attack the ground, kamikaze style.

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All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

trikke #14 Posted 26 December 2017 - 01:06 PM

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my adventure was near the ground...

 

well, dammit!   that guy was really trying to kill me!

 

it's sad that i can't remember how it ended... 

 

 

i would assume guess that a better turner would beat a better climber in a low speed vertical fight close to the ground, if both were flown by equally competent pilots?

 

and on a T day, like a tuesday or thursday


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Dru83 #15 Posted 26 December 2017 - 02:10 PM

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I think the transitioning between horizontal and vertical is valid in some situations. I wouldn't use it as my first option though, more of a last resort. The other day I was in a fight in my 109G (first flight in the G, actually) and got jumped by an Airacobra on my six. I couldn't run away from him, didn't have enough altitude to dive away, and I knew there was no way I could win a turn fight, so I pulled up into a loop. He followed me and 3 or 4 loops later, I had gotten around on him and was getting a couple shots in on him every so often and then a couple bots on my team distracted him enough that I could get on his six and finish him. It really depends on the situation and the aircraft involved. But, if nothing else works, what have you got to lose?
 


trikke #16 Posted 27 December 2017 - 07:32 PM

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so, if i can sum up...    first rule of vertical-turn fight club

 

1. vertical TF in only excellent climbers   

 

2. shut off throttle, add airbrake and lower flaps going downhill... then full wep, and raise flaps uphill?   (or flaps on both up and down to boost lift?)


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Dru83 #17 Posted 27 December 2017 - 08:38 PM

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I never use flaps when doing vertical maneuvers except to get people to crash into me or overshoot and that's usually a last ditch maneuver in an attack plane. I don't know if you'd get any advantage from slowing down in a dive, but I definitely wouldn't use flaps when climbing because you'll bleed off too much airspeed. Speed is life.

trikke #18 Posted 28 December 2017 - 03:12 AM

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slower speed in a dive is exchangeable for lift in a wep climb, via flaps?

 

is that the secret?     if you can dive slower than him, you can bottom out and begin to climb just a few seconds quicker?

 

ah, well...  i hadn't tried it in battle, before or since


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