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F2G Super Corsair, something wrong with it?


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HazeGrayUnderway #21 Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:27 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 04 December 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

 

I disagree. Even a Zero can't turn fast enough to get more than a fleeting shot at a horizontal BnZ-er if he's forced to turn a 180. The degree gets lower and easier depending on the angle so aim for head-ons with smaller, lighter craft you can vaporize in a pass. At least a 90 degree angle (3 or 9 o'clock). Do not engage otherwise unless he's below 50%. Do not use boost in the approach (I'm often idling on the way in to recover as much boost as I can). Fly up to him, shoot him then boost out if he's a light. More often than not he'll be missing bits n pieces of his plane by the time you're through. The only danger at this point is a Russian with a big derp.

 

I hate fighting Corsairs. They have every advantage over the Focke Wulf save firepower. They have long enough boost and high enough speed that the 190 cannot outrun them, yet have high enough maneuverability and HP to outturn and outlast in a turn fight.

 

It doesn't even have to be a Zero.  Nor Spitfire.  Because there are PLENTY of fighters that are simply faster, more agile than the lameduck Corsair.  And they can close very quickly if you think your engine boost and B&Z will save you.  FFS, they put the P80 on sale, right smack with the lame F2G in the same tier.

HazeGrayUnderway #22 Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:29 AM

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View PostEinssniper, on 04 December 2017 - 05:52 AM, said:

you new players have a lot to learn, including how to BNZ attack;

some hidden stats are not listed in the 'stats panel', Cosair gets more

boost meaning you can accelerate at a longer time than normal light fighters,

not to say F6U gets 16 sec boost, almost double those of same tier fighters.

 

One of the top 3 fighters in tier 9 can 'suck' in your hands, then it's definitely your play style

 

Well that's all nice and cute, because the F6U isn't a Corsair.  The Corsairs are in Tier VI-VIII.

FIight #23 Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:49 PM

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View Postvonluckner, on 06 December 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

 

What's the point then? 

 

If you're going to play a low impact airplane that runs from pursuers, play a heavy fighter that's actually fast.

 

If you going to play a high-impact plane which can outturn fighters, play a light fighter that's actually maneuverable;

there's no way for multiroles in the current version to dogfight with fighters.



Onyx #24 Posted 03 January 2018 - 01:03 AM

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View PostEinssniper, on 07 December 2017 - 06:49 AM, said:

 

If you going to play a high-impact plane which can outturn fighters, play a light fighter that's actually maneuverable;

there's no way for multiroles in the current version to dogfight with fighters.

 

Heavies aren't as maneuverable as the Corsair.  The Corsair can really whip and strike people in crazy ways, and it turns fast enough that it can engage in a turn fight while breaking away and strike you when you think you're safe.

 

That said, I've not used the F2G specifically, and everything I've seen about it is it is the definition of mediocrity.  Considering it literally gains 1100 horsepower over the prior corsair model, it basically doesn't have any more pep in its step, and that is a serious balance problem.



vcharng #25 Posted 03 January 2018 - 04:25 AM

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View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 07 December 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

 

It doesn't even have to be a Zero.  Nor Spitfire.  Because there are PLENTY of fighters that are simply faster, more agile than the lameduck Corsair.  And they can close very quickly if you think your engine boost and B&Z will save you.  FFS, they put the P80 on sale, right smack with the lame F2G in the same tier.

 

Don't let the stats fool you, Corsairs turn faster than that "average time to turn 360 deg" tells you.

Remember that in actual battle most turns won't last that long, it's not just about peak turning rate, it's also about how fast you enter, exit and change the direction of a turn.

From my experience in F4U-1 and Tornado, you are to fight as a team (while this does not always infer that you have to be outnumbering your enemy), in team vs. team fights you will be switching targets quickly, which is exactly what the Corsair's high roll rate does: it allows you to change the direction of turning faster than others. The corsair's roll rate is 130, Zero and Spit both got 100. As for Ki-61, they are supposed to be killed outside of a furball anyway.

Tornado don't have such an advantage, it rolls at 90 deg/s, but it has greater sustained turning rate, good enough to go continuous TNB in team fights. Plus it has ridiculously fast reload for its rockets. (6 rockets per 60 seconds, as opposed to Corsair's 8 per 120)

 

As for the F2G in its tier, against Japanese aircrafts it has a more significant roll rate advantage than in T6, and it is significantly faster than the Spit14.

 

And finally, there WILL be some planes you just can't win against anyway. 190s can't win against Corsairs and Tornadoes, bombers can't win against heavies, Spits can't win against Japanese (well actually it can in some cases), and so on.



HazeGrayUnderway #26 Posted 03 January 2018 - 07:24 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 03 January 2018 - 04:25 AM, said:

 

Don't let the stats fool you, Corsairs turn faster than that "average time to turn 360 deg" tells you.

Remember that in actual battle most turns won't last that long, it's not just about peak turning rate, it's also about how fast you enter, exit and change the direction of a turn.

From my experience in F4U-1 and Tornado, you are to fight as a team (while this does not always infer that you have to be outnumbering your enemy), in team vs. team fights you will be switching targets quickly, which is exactly what the Corsair's high roll rate does: it allows you to change the direction of turning faster than others. The corsair's roll rate is 130, Zero and Spit both got 100. As for Ki-61, they are supposed to be killed outside of a furball anyway.

Tornado don't have such an advantage, it rolls at 90 deg/s, but it has greater sustained turning rate, good enough to go continuous TNB in team fights. Plus it has ridiculously fast reload for its rockets. (6 rockets per 60 seconds, as opposed to Corsair's 8 per 120)

 

As for the F2G in its tier, against Japanese aircrafts it has a more significant roll rate advantage than in T6, and it is significantly faster than the Spit14.

 

And finally, there WILL be some planes you just can't win against anyway. 190s can't win against Corsairs and Tornadoes, bombers can't win against heavies, Spits can't win against Japanese (well actually it can in some cases), and so on.

 

And none of which helps you when there's no teamwork in WoWP, it won't help you when a fighter is on the tail of the Corsair.  You're not outmaneuvering the T&B fighters.  You're not getting away from them quickly enough.

 

Fw190s aren't the meta.  T&B is The Meta right now.  You can easily find T&B planes like Spitfires.  And the Spitfires can keep up with the Corsair long enough to kill it.  Really, it's only the Zero that has a hard time catching up with their anemic speeds, but other T&B planes aren't so slow.  Spitfire IX will run you down.


Edited by HazeGrayUnderway, 03 January 2018 - 07:25 AM.


vcharng #27 Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:15 AM

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View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 03 January 2018 - 07:24 AM, said:

 

And none of which helps you when there's no teamwork in WoWP, it won't help you when a fighter is on the tail of the Corsair.  You're not outmaneuvering the T&B fighters.  You're not getting away from them quickly enough.

 

Fw190s aren't the meta.  T&B is The Meta right now.  You can easily find T&B planes like Spitfires.  And the Spitfires can keep up with the Corsair long enough to kill it.  Really, it's only the Zero that has a hard time catching up with their anemic speeds, but other T&B planes aren't so slow.  Spitfire IX will run you down.

 

All the teamwork a multirole need is "give them something else to shoot at", which I believe very well exist here.

I fight better both in my Tornado and F4U-1 than in my Spit V you know. Yes, I have a better kill ratio in my Spit, but I have less influence to the battle.

Another issue is "Spitfire always wins against Corsair" is NOT the same as "Spitfire is better than Corsair", otherwise all the bombers and attackers would be underpowered all the way to hell.

This is especially true for tier 7 and above where you get into larger maps. Yes, Spitfire XIV may win every fight when it actually meets an F2G, but what about those occasions that it doesn't? What about those occasions where the F2G caps faster because it reaches the next point earlier and is able to attack ground targets?

You did point out a solid problem about multiroles as being not B&Z enough and not T&B enough, causing them to face dilemmas whenever they face enemies from both categories. But war is different from dueling, you need to take situations other than one on one dogfights into account as well.



DasTomas77 #28 Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:37 AM

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Funny, are you two trying to learn Eins how to play... Really funny. These new players...

vcharng #29 Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:44 AM

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View PostDasTomas77, on 03 January 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

Funny, are you two trying to learn Eins how to play... Really funny. These new players...

 

One of the two who actually replies to Eins has fought more battles than him, the other was registered earlier than him.

And none of them was me, by the way.

I'm just trying to share my experience in the Corsair line with that Haze guy, who seems to be unable to understand that there are air battles beside dogfights and one-on-one duels.



DasTomas77 #30 Posted 03 January 2018 - 10:22 AM

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Wasnt talking about you my friend ;)

And a registration date doesnt matter at all. I bet Eins can win 10/10 versus both of them.


Edited by DasTomas77, 03 January 2018 - 10:28 AM.


vonluckner #31 Posted 03 January 2018 - 02:23 PM

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View PostDasTomas77, on 03 January 2018 - 10:22 AM, said:

Wasnt talking about you my friend ;)

And a registration date doesnt matter at all. I bet Eins can win 10/10 versus both of them.

 

Nobody was talking about who is better than who. If you want to bottomfeed around peoples stats in some kind of vicarious appeal to authority, maybe I'll point out that HazeGray is the only one that's actually played the F2G since 2.0, and that Einssniper does significantly better in LFs than MRs in general. I'll also point out that all three of us are better than you.

 

I think we all agreed in principle that the F2G (Einssniper was speaking about the F6U, or perhaps Corsair line more generally) isn't maneuverable enough to dogfight LFs, and it's all been instead about whether the marginal speed advantage is really worth it. I don't know why you'd come here and try to derail the conversation by wanking over someone elses stats.

 

Take the bootlicking somewhere else.



pittwsix #32 Posted 07 January 2018 - 08:29 PM

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All of the american lines are bad, simply because they have one single strength.  The P-51 line has terrible manueverability, so the thought is it would be very fast and have great guns to zoom and boom.  While it is kind of fast its not fast enough, and its guns which are only machine guns have a 520M range, so the zoom and boom tactic is no good.  If anyone gets behind you in either the american fighter line or the corsair line your just dead, you cant out run or out turn any other fighter in the game.  

 

Unrealistic to history as well as the P-51 and Corsair were notorious for their speed and handling, right now the P-51 line is along  with the Mig line the worst in the game, simply because they have nothing going for them, not fast enough and can't handle well enough to dog fight.  



pyantoryng #33 Posted 07 January 2018 - 08:37 PM

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View Postpittwsix, on 07 January 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

All of the american lines are bad, simply because they have one single strength.  The P-51 line has terrible manueverability, so the thought is it would be very fast and have great guns to zoom and boom.  While it is kind of fast its not fast enough, and its guns which are only machine guns have a 520M range, so the zoom and boom tactic is no good.  If anyone gets behind you in either the american fighter line or the corsair line your just dead, you cant out run or out turn any other fighter in the game.  

 

Unrealistic to history as well as the P-51 and Corsair were notorious for their speed and handling, right now the P-51 line is along  with the Mig line the worst in the game, simply because they have nothing going for them, not fast enough and can't handle well enough to dog fight.  

 

In other words...WG has successfully nerfed the very concept of energy, where the American (and MiG)'s strength lies.

 

They had been extremely dominant pre-2.0...and WG now stomped them as hard as they did US carriers in WoWS...only the damage is done all at once rather than over time.



WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
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HazeGrayUnderway #34 Posted 08 January 2018 - 02:55 AM

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View Postvcharng, on 03 January 2018 - 08:44 AM, said:

 

One of the two who actually replies to Eins has fought more battles than him, the other was registered earlier than him.

And none of them was me, by the way.

I'm just trying to share my experience in the Corsair line with that Haze guy, who seems to be unable to understand that there are air battles beside dogfights and one-on-one duels.

 

When that turn & burn gets on the Corsair, that air battle has found the Corsair and there's not much else to it.

There is a threat.

You kill that threat.

Moving on to the next thing.

You can contemplate the air battle when you're waiting to respawn.



Pogo68 #35 Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:02 AM

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View Postvonluckner, on 06 December 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

 

You have to turn (not necessarily with a zero) because many LF are just faster than you.

 

If you just try to run certain aircraft will just kill you whether the pilot is good or bad like the I-220. If you turn you will still die to a player that's even a little good, but maybe if they're bad you can force an overshoot.

 

I don't think the A6M is that good, I only mentioned because it was brought up for head-ons. It's probably the only plane you can just fly away from.

 

US Navy instructions to all pilots flying the F4U Corsair  (all US Navy fighter actually)

Do not turn more than 180deg when fighting a zero

This was amended to 

Do not turn more than 90deg when fighting a zero

And again to 

Do not turn fight a Zero

 

The recommended tactic was to attack from behind with an altitude advantage and blow through, climb execute a shallow climb and reposition and repeat as needed.

The hose nose was one of the fastest fighters of it's day, but like the Jug it was heavy and did not turn as well as it's lighter adversaries.

 

So pilots were told to keep their speed and altitude and use high shallow diving speeds to their advantage.

 

 


DICTA BOELCKE for WoWP
    1. Try to secure the upper hand before attacking.
    2. Always continue with an attack you have begun
    3. Open fire only at close range, and then only when the opponent is squarely in your sights
    4. You should always try to keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be deceived by ruses
    5. In any type of attack, it is essential to assail your opponent from behind
    6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try run away from his attack, but fly to meet it
    7. When over the enemy's lines, always remember your own line of retreat
    8. It is better to attack in groups of four or six. Avoid two aircraft attacking the same opponent

Onyx #36 Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:02 AM

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View Postpyantoryng, on 07 January 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

 

In other words...WG has successfully nerfed the very concept of energy, where the American (and MiG)'s strength lies.

 

They had been extremely dominant pre-2.0...and WG now stomped them as hard as they did US carriers in WoWS...only the damage is done all at once rather than over time.

 

Energy fighting isn't useless, but as a dominant game winning tactic, it's definitely not.  The issue primarily comes down to time though.  In order to successfully energy fight, you need to do a significant chunk of damage on a pass, which is difficult without a lead indicator (don't bring it back, the game's better without it) especially for planes like the P-51 or 109 line.  The Yak multirole line has its own problems, but I digress.  Being able to cut in, shoot something for half its life, and run away doesn't actually win you games.  So you need to basically take every energy fighter, do shorter cuts, turn before you're "safe" (if nothing's on you) and immediately cut right back in, and just use high speed to afford you some level of survivability while doing it, as well as relying on your speed to dive and deny kills in the cap circle if at all possible.

 

Now obviously this is a problem because you need to be effective at killing things quickly and efficiently to flip caps, and if you don't have the correct target then your plane is useless.  Sometimes you run into awkward scenarios where "slow" planes are fast enough to keep up with energy fighters for long enough (such as a Spitfire 14 easily equalizing speed with a P-51H) or where a plane cannot be caught, but they're not exactly doing anything either (Me 262 booming past and not killing anything and being untouchable).  Nowhere is this more obvious than watching the J8M.  It's super fast, and it's awful at doing its job.  So you simultaneously can't catch it, and it's not a real threat to you.

 

The Corsairs get around this problem because they turn well enough and do enough damage far enough away that they can be very effective at short passes, quick turns, and playing a poor man's heavy.  The 190 and P-47 line is less fortunate because they turn too slowly to pull off this playstyle, and heavies have it slightly worse than that because, though they're fast, they turn even worse and their firepower often isn't threatening for their speed.  The notable exceptions are the likes of the XF5U, XP-75, or VB 10, the 13.5s heavies.

 

Identifying the issues, it's painfully obvious that the Spitfire is standing out as ridiculously strong.  I don't believe it's "overpowered" by the time tier 8 rolls around (it certainly is at tier 5), and it feels in a good place for where light fighters should be.  However, it's also the absolute best specimen amongst light fighters, and every other light is varying degrees of "awful" compared to it, so either most lights by tier 8 are hilariously underpowered, or the spitfire is overpowered.  I'd edge more that the shift in game renders most lights underpowered, though the tier 5 Spitfire 1 is definitely overpowered due to how the game plays then.

 

So what do planes need?

 

As a general rule, boom and zoom planes need better turn times.  No LF should be worse than about 10, no MR worse than about 11-12, no heavy worse than about 14.  Every plane needs to be able to turn, there just should be clear winners.  Planes across the board need DPS buffs.  The Spitfire LF line is a good bar for where many LFs should be approximately.  Cannon burst times should be buffed across the board for planes such as the XF5U (lowest DPS heavy, LF cannon burst time, makes sense.  Though the XF5U really stands out as a bizarre choice and should probably be swapped out with the P-82), Ki-43 line, too many USSR to count, etc.  Boost should be the primary way to exaggerate slow turn and burn planes from faster boom and zoom ones.  Boost should recharge based on a percentage instead of a fixed rate (say, something like 5-10%/s instead of 0.5/second flat).  And then primarily define the differences between planes with what works better at higher alts, what at lower, how they deliver their damage, and what types of bomb loads and how strong are those bombs.  As well as how easy they can turn fight other planes or run away.  You'd need some across the board buffs to many planes doing these changes, but if a plane cannot reasonably stay with another plane and kill it quickly, it effectively can't defend or attack caps efficiently, and that's what's killing boom and zoomers right now.



ComradeZ #37 Posted 13 February 2018 - 05:34 AM

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I'm grinding through the F4U line as well. Worst. Plane. Ever.   The Pancake was more fun and faster to grind through.  This F4U line is just a fatboy who has big guns and goes fast. Unfortunately not faster than the 20mm and the .50s being hosed on you as you -try- to escape. Of course you'll get your wings blown off at your earliest inconvenience if you make it that far. It's a monster huge target.  

 

Played about 50+ games in the miserable piles of junk. Never again. Never ever again. 



trikke #38 Posted 17 February 2018 - 03:19 PM

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View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 03 December 2017 - 06:07 AM, said:

Corsairs just suck in this game.  Period.  Can't dogfight.  Can't outrun.  Can't outclimb.  Can't outdive.  No point in boom and zoom when a turn and burn just catches right up to you after it flips over in a 360 to catch you.  Can't even intercept high altitude bombers.  It sucks in high altitude fighting.  It sucks in low altitude fighting.  It sucks in fighting in between.

 

not all corsairs...

 

yesterday,first (and only) battle in my brand new T5 XF4U-1 was almost magical...  13 air kills, 11k+ CP, one death, #1 and a win, on a day when wins were few and far between 

 

no idea why, and guaranteed not to last... because of many reasons, and they're all self-inflicted 

 

almost makes me want to never fly it again, just because


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Mojoe_Bailey #39 Posted 24 February 2018 - 07:07 PM

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What they need to do is buff Corsairs. The Corsair was one of the most successful planes of WWII. And it was NOT a slow as a brick blasted ONLY multirole plane. This big-engine beauty was a monster in reality. It was carrier based and just to give you an idea of how strong it was as a dogfighter....kill ratio was 13/1. Yep, each one killed 13 Jap Zeros before keeling over. It could climb like crazy, could turn well, and had an amazing boost. "Whistling Death" was its name. But in WOWP it doesn't have its real life stats, which made it OP in reality. 

 

If you were to make an authentic, historically accurate Corsair in WOWP... it would climb like a Mustang, turn fast enough to chase Zeros in dives, and carry a nice bit of ordinance, and the big guns would have much less overheat. It would be a multirole that handled like a light fighter, because history tells us it excelled in both. That's why we won the Pacific from the Japs. Hellcat plane was a similar deal, though more dogfighting than multirole, but they won't make us a Hellcat. Oh well. To much anti-American bias in this game.

 

All these American models in this game are foreign made lies. Seriously. Even the Tier X Sabre is underpowered. In real life those machine guns didn't take 6 seconds to kill something. They tore the jets up instantly! Holy crap! Seriously! U.S. machine guns are not pea shooters and that's something the devs just don't get. Look at all the MIg15s that got torn the hell up by Sabre machine guns in history. There ya go War gaming! Why don't you try to get it right for the US finally. 



Animal_of_Pryale #40 Posted 02 March 2018 - 11:14 PM

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The F2G is like a later version of the F11C-2.   Fly in, drop your big bomb, fly out to reload bomb, repeat.

 

Most of the complaints seem to be from people who want to dogfight with them.  Avoid dogfights.  You don't have the maneuverability.  Treat it like an attack aircraft.      






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