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Bot Management

clan wars bots tactics human management target selection

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KloudRains #1 Posted 29 November 2017 - 04:20 PM

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Manage Bots to Restore Tactics Interplay (Clan War Battles)

 

Let me say up front that this post is about taking at least a baby step toward having clan battles capability. At an important minimum make the 2.0/2.1 version more enjoyable. The parenthetical label was to get attention. The core desire is to rid us of the disgusting way bots play their own game. All to often, they needlessly lose battles for the team by independent, stupid activity. I want the chess pieces (bots) to attack objectives at my direction or by the direction of a human team mate.
The most important aspect for me of Version 1.9, and earlier, was the tactics interplay. Sure, the skills of maneuver, shooting guns and rockets, bomb delivery and other mechanical aspects were important but only useful as tools for the tactical competition. In addition, the bots eventually became useful tools to “herd” around for setup conditions at the merge. The setup involved energy maneuverability and geometry of my overall team relative to the enemy. The setup became “everything” and we players enjoyed fairly good opportunity to manage the setup. 
This could be compared with chess player tactics. The satisfaction of the game is not from just knowing and making random moves allowed for a given piece such as a pawn - it is the thoughtful management of the moves; the tactics which keeps players engrossed in the game.
There is a huge loss of tactics interplay with Version 2.0/2.1. It first seemed only about turning hard and blazing away at targets of opportunity. Some experience gradually informed that a bit of tactics influence sometimes is there. However, it is mostly by default bot behavior since they are usually way dominant in their numbers in any given battle. Krautjaeger recently gave us a very useful mod (http://forum.worldof...os-the-ai-bots/) which made this clear. Using this mod confirmed that a high proportion of my chess pieces move according to general bot instructions from months back by some unknown developer. Not to the tactical sense of a player in the current battle. This is nonsensical.  
Human text messages enable some degree of coordinated fighting before and during battles. However, the bot chess pieces of Version 2.0 move around in maddeningly independent action. They needlessly defeat our own team over and over. They attack targets which matter little or avoid the ones which do matter. One common, very frustrating sight, is a silly bot pack of the majority of the team swirling fruitlessly around the lesser threat of overhead bombers, most of the battle, while my team urgently needs them at a key target complex ... right now! Far too many times this makes for a very resentful mood while just waiting for the battle to end with an inevitable loss
We need emergency action to give us some rudimentary bot management. At least the basic ability to vector them to a suitable target or region of the battle map.
There are aspects which hint that Versions 2.0/2.1 ride upon the rudiments of what was first intended to bring in clan wars. Give some direct bot management to us and the format becomes a step toward implementing clan battles. Change the game so that a few key strokes will let us direct where bots go on the map. This will have bots then attack the nearest target(s) to a click designation, including both air and surface objects.
There are presently five categories of planes with bot pilots having flexible action. These are fighters, multi-role fighters, heavy fighters, attack planes and bombers (not including the bomber formations in rigid streams). Number these One through Five for reference. Then, once the countdown for battle starts (when the battle map is displayed in large format) let each category be directed by depressing the left Alt Key and a suitable number, followed by clicking the pointer where that team category should proceed on the map. So, holding down the left Alt and the numeral 1 would grab the bot fighters and a simple click would then direct them the proximity of the desired target. They would then engage, using their default behavior. Each bot category on the team could thus be directed like a strike group in real life. Of course, some other combination of keys might be better. Comments?
Now, give this management control to the top three humans on a team, as ranked by the present system of the battle lineup. If there are three or more humans, let the top human have control of fighters and multi-roles, second topmost human player gets heavy fighters and the third-ranked human gets attack and bombers. Teams will succeed at least in part by their player coordination at this phase. A designated bot manager should continue having this control option while in re-spawn and even after being shot out of the battle and unable to re-spawn. During battle the holder of each category will be able to designate a fresh target objective.
If there are only two humans, the top ranked one would have fighters, multi-role and heavy fighters. Second would have attack planes and bombers (if any). Of course, if there is only one human on the team, he gets it all. NOTE: Players can elect to not direct some, or all, of the bots and they will then default to their present behavior. 
I do not have sufficient background to know if this concept is as straightforward to implement as it is to imagine and describe. I also expect there are better combinations of keyboard controls than those above. Even better ways to parcel out management. The concept will at least give us the rudiments of response to coordination that we expect of a human player on our team.

It will be delightful if others would suggest alternative or additional enhancements and we get momentum on such ideas, with a group voice. I believe we could readily have a much, much better game with a bit of bot management by human players.
Soon? Before everyone quits?

 

"Throw a nickle on the grass ..."



pyantoryng #2 Posted 29 November 2017 - 04:25 PM

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Just make them respond to attack command on sectors would be a start...

WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
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Pogo68 #3 Posted 29 November 2017 - 07:05 PM

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The Coordinated attack command should apply to the Ground Attack bots as well.

 

This would allow some measure of coordination to avoid having both players and bots bomb the same thing.


DICTA BOELCKE for WoWP
    1. Try to secure the upper hand before attacking.
    2. Always continue with an attack you have begun
    3. Open fire only at close range, and then only when the opponent is squarely in your sights
    4. You should always try to keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be deceived by ruses
    5. In any type of attack, it is essential to assail your opponent from behind
    6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try run away from his attack, but fly to meet it
    7. When over the enemy's lines, always remember your own line of retreat
    8. It is better to attack in groups of four or six. Avoid two aircraft attacking the same opponent

Cunobelin #4 Posted 30 November 2017 - 02:45 AM

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I would also like to see more capability re the ability to control bot allies.

I have not yet begun to fight

 

clodhoppr #5 Posted 30 November 2017 - 06:53 PM

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Excellent observations Kloud!

The bot behavior in 1.9, and earlier, was frustrating, the bot behavior in 2.0 is infuriating. 

In the 1.9 and earlier versions, the bots would at least have rudimentary responses to human players and would tend to flock around us. 

In 2.0 they present no response to human players and seem to care less about the whereabouts of the human players. This behavior is extremely frustrating especially in 1v1/2v2 battles.

Too often I have tried to "lure" my bots to the sector I thought would have the most strategic sense. I have come to realization the bots do not respond to the humans, at all. And Kloud, you just helped confirm my realization. The bots either go to whatever sector they want (why, who knows) or they divide into groups, or they chase bomber squads for forever... My decision is either go into the sector alone and hope I can take it/defend it, or against my better judgement, follow the stupid bots... If I have player(s) on my side I will try and fine them. In my silly opinion, due to the bots, battles won or lost tend to be random and lack any strategic sense. 



Soylent_Red_Isnt_People #6 Posted 30 November 2017 - 09:24 PM

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View Postclodhoppr, on 30 November 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

In my silly opinion, due to the bots, battles won or lost tend to be random and lack any strategic sense. 

^^ This; I have never yet had a bot team stay grouped en masse, although I occasionally see it happen for red.

More commonly there is a two- or three-way split at countdown with the GA, slowest aircraft, choosing to fly towards the most distant point; the others will start to follow a player only to vacillate once equidistant from two caps.

 

That the devs at WG claim the bots fly towards the closest choice appropriate for their type is an absolute joke; I have never, ever, seen bot fighters trying to outrace me towards an airfield of any kind even if closest.


Edited by Soylent_Red_Isnt_People, 30 November 2017 - 09:26 PM.

"If they don't chase you after a mile, they don't chase ya.... Maybe it's two miles...."   ---   "You wanna play it soft, we'll play it soft. You wanna play it hard, let's play it hard."

 

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King_James_elc #7 Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:28 AM

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I agree we need a little bit of "influence" over the bots. "Coordinate attack on...." could be a good start, as POGO mentioned. If you want more granularity, the nearest bot(s) fly to the designated map location for xx sec (20s?). After xx sec (20s?), it can receive other instructions.

Or: all bombers/GA attack designated sector, Or just coordinate attack on...., like POGO suggested.

 

 


 

 

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LtnHalo_US #8 Posted 01 December 2017 - 07:57 PM

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100% agree, as i always say in games "GG RNGesus gave yoou better bots" and what would make everything better IMO is if the squall line came faster, like srsly? 7 minutes most games are ver by then the squal line shoould come at the 2 minute mark, because then the bots can be taken out easier cuz when ya kill em they die :)

trikke #9 Posted 03 December 2017 - 07:34 PM

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love to see this thread moved to 'Suggestions"

 

good ideas all, except we would all probably fight over control of the bots, or if the control was given only to the top pilots, i would never be able to get it

 

and the top pilot changes every few seconds through the battle... you would have to be notified that you had the control by a banner, or something eye-catching


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LMG #10 Posted 04 December 2017 - 01:15 AM

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Actually, I think bot management could work with some sort of "wingman" system. Each player gets X amount of bots under their direct command, so they'll assist the player whenever they can instead of following a specific set of rules for their type. The player could tell them to go shoot air/ground targets, follow him and provide covering fire, or simply break off and do what they normally do. I remember a similar system used in several Star Wars games, some better than others :sceptic:


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Soylent_Red_Isnt_People #11 Posted 04 December 2017 - 07:24 PM

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Are bots affected by the respawn counter, or are they just programmed to be so completely asinine so as to always restart from the original spawn instead of captured airfields whenever their presence might save a cap?

"If they don't chase you after a mile, they don't chase ya.... Maybe it's two miles...."   ---   "You wanna play it soft, we'll play it soft. You wanna play it hard, let's play it hard."

 

5801234590.png

 

''Under control? You're grabbing a f**king bazooka, you dumba**!''


pyantoryng #12 Posted 04 December 2017 - 07:26 PM

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View PostSoylent_Red_Isnt_People, on 04 December 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

Are bots affected by the respawn counter, or are they just programmed to be so completely asinine so as to always restart from the original spawn instead of captured airfields whenever their presence might save a cap?

 

They seem to not be affected by respawn counter...but they can't use airfields either, whether to spawn or repair.

WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
I am deaf, silent, and fly with unrealistic controls. Do not count on me to carry - my back's already broken from overweight.

Perrigrino #13 Posted 25 January 2018 - 06:55 AM

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hey Kloud,

 

better late than never to jump in....

 

As I was reading your op two things came to mind. One- what you described initially as a possible solution is very familiar. Why, because that is what Carriers do in WoWShips. Carrier players basically manage their BOT fleet. So Wargaming is doing it, just not in WoWP, yet.

 

Second. I also had a similar idea about having a BOT wingperson, particularly after being dumped by Match Maker into a few uneven battles. A number of times now I have been launched into battle, 1vs a Flight of 2 humans, and me in a T8 fighter, they in their T9 Heavies, (match Maker considers a Flight team as one, for some strange reason that was/is mentioned in the WoWP Developer's Blog) and I knew the outcome before the match started. Impossible odds. In fact this happened constantly prior to 2.0 likely because not enough of a player base in the higher Tearz. The idea of having a BOT wingperson, I think, is a good start.

 

Cheers!


Edited by Perrigrino, 25 January 2018 - 06:58 AM.


trikke #14 Posted 25 January 2018 - 04:57 PM

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i'll go through periods of trying to 'contact' bots, because we were expressly told that bots respond to the players' F7 commands, in particular 

 

nothing, nada, not once have i seen a single bot turn to come my direction

 

was is supposed to be the nearest bot LF if you're in a LF, and a bot HF if you're in a HF?

 

because if i'm in a LF and the nearest bot is a GA...  just never mind


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