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general observations of conquest game mode and pvp


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mnbv_fockewulfe #1 Posted 26 November 2017 - 06:42 PM

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Last night I hosted a scrimmage for some pvp and I must say we had a decent turnout. 

We had three battles with 7v7 at most and 6v6 at least. 

I'd say about over half had voice communication, which I can tell you helped a lot with coordinating.

The teams I was on lost twice and won the last one. I didn't pay special attention to how was on what team except to balance aircraft and people with TS. 

Interestingly enough, despite the TnB meta, the majority of the planes chosen were P-38s, Me 410s, and P-51s. We did have one bomber, which proved to be too much of an advantage if the other team had a GA. 

We played on the Asian border with 2 military bases, and three garrisons in symmetrical layout. 

 

Now to try and break this up into different sections.

 

UI

In this competitive setting, the limitations of the UI become even more apparent. The best way I can describe it is as information deprivation. The minimap doesn't display enough of the map to be useful to understand the full extent of the battle. Usernames of friendlies aren't displayed until you get up close, which prevents you from being able to coordinate and identify allies. The model of enemy planes (and allied) aren't displayed unless you have them locked on as a target. You can only have one target locked at a time and pressing tab doesn't provide this information. Makers on the minimap don't give any indication of altitude relative to your own, making it hard to spot planes when panning the camera around based on the minimap.

At several points in the battle, I actually experienced information overload. This was caused by a large number of enemies being in the airspace around me. The indication arrows don't fade the father away the enemy planes are, same goes with the enemy plane tags. With all of the enemy planes being on full brightness despite they're danger to me being variable (based on distance away from me) caused to me to have mini panics where I thought all of the planes I could see were dangerous when in reality only two or three were actually any threat.

Blue HUD elements on a blue sky...nuf said.

All of the problems I have with the UI in 2.0 weren't problems in 1.x.

Some feature to dumb down the UI.

 

Strategy

I would say most of the strategy was only important in the initial capturing of territories. Both teams first cap was the military base, with the garrison on respective sides of the map going next. If one team capped the center, the other team came in with a speed and altitude advantage and would be able to make an insta-cap. After that, it was how well you could group up and take the center until squall hit. Different strategies were tried to cap the the other team's military base, but it was usually anticipated based on the fact that if they weren't capping a base, you could tell where they were. If everyone was tied up in the center, one person might elect to try and ninja cap the other side's garrison which sometimes worked. 

 

In the first battle, my team got a point lead but all died after squall (I was the last man standing).

Second game, the other team had the only bomber, they got the point lead and survived after the squall.

Last game, no bombers, my team got the point lead and survived after the squall. 

 

The game felt like it was somehow not working properly without the full team battles. 

 

Airplane balance

This was probably affected by what every one was bringing to the fight,  i.e. oh he brought a HF, I'll bring my HF, oh he brought his HF, I'll bring my high alt LF. TnB planes were tried for the first round but quickly disappeared by the second round.

 

to be continued I'm getting tired of typing so much. If anyone else has something to add go ahead.


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rb1951 #2 Posted 26 November 2017 - 07:08 PM

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Sry I missed the scrimmage mnbv,couldnt get back home early enough to participate.

mnbv_fockewulfe #3 Posted 26 November 2017 - 07:20 PM

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View Postrb1951, on 26 November 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

Sry I missed the scrimmage mnbv,couldnt get back home early enough to participate.

 

Np, I'll proably host another one soon™.

Maybe before the next update, maybe after.


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pyantoryng #4 Posted 26 November 2017 - 07:52 PM

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Ninja capping don't really work that well until like tier 7...

 

In my view, TnB works so well in randoms because the bots strictly adhere to the altitude limits, and there are a whole lot of them to TnB against. With everyone going BnZ I imagine it's just like the old times, when TnB literally had no role in battles like that (though sometimes the TnB player do emerge victorious) and players don't adhere to altitude limits.


Edited by pyantoryng, 26 November 2017 - 07:52 PM.


WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
I am deaf, silent, and fly with unrealistic controls. Do not count on me to carry - my back's already broken from overweight.

mnbv_fockewulfe #5 Posted 26 November 2017 - 07:57 PM

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Some of the best moments were after squall when you realize,"oh shoot, I need to stay alive." and that's when all the old tactics of altitude and energy management came back. My favorite parts was juggling multiple opponents and slowly eliminating them one by one.

With the altitude caps it felt like a hand was pushing down on me when I tried to climb, keeping me from getting more potential energy to use.


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mnbv_fockewulfe #6 Posted 26 November 2017 - 08:26 PM

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A few players made the comment of "flying in jelly". I can say, i have to agree with this impression.

Everyone ditched their plane right before squall.

One time someone was chasing me and squall was right about to hit, so I lawn-darted and the guy chasing me hit the ground right next to were I crashed.

Sounds like bad game design to me.


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pyantoryng #7 Posted 26 November 2017 - 08:31 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 26 November 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

A few players made the comment of "flying in jelly". I can say, i have to agree with this impression.

Everyone ditched their plane right before squall.

One time someone was chasing me and squall was right about to hit, so I lawn-darted and the guy chasing me hit the ground right next to were I crashed.

Sounds like bad game design to me.

 

Players always game the system, per usual...those that do not simply become liability during defense.



WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
I am deaf, silent, and fly with unrealistic controls. Do not count on me to carry - my back's already broken from overweight.

ramp4ge #8 Posted 26 November 2017 - 08:43 PM

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When I'm flying a fighter I do prefer TnB simply because I feel more engaged more often I've been doing some BnZ with a P-38 and it feels like a lot of setup for a tiny fraction of a moment's engagement before you're back in the setup. To me, in the current mid-tiers, BnZ feels like an excellent way to farm assists, because almost nothing there has enough firepower to completely wipe a full-health player in a single pass, leaving the kill for someone else while you're setting up to attack again.

 

The turn fighters just feel like they put you more directly in the action and keep you there more. But it is very difficult to counter a good energy fighter in a 1v1 this way. It just seldom comes down to a 1v1 in a situation that does solidly favor the energy fighter.



mnbv_fockewulfe #9 Posted 26 November 2017 - 08:50 PM

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the fewer number of players and lack pf bots to farm also contributed to the bnz being preferred. They were also very low kill scoring matches.

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ArrowZ_ #10 Posted 26 November 2017 - 11:42 PM

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Got a video bruh? :trollface:

That Ozi Client Side Lagger

 


LMG #11 Posted 26 November 2017 - 11:51 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 26 November 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

Strategy

I would say most of the strategy was only important in the initial capturing of territories. Both teams first cap was the military base, with the garrison on respective sides of the map going next. If one team capped the center, the other team came in with a speed and altitude advantage and would be able to make an insta-cap. After that, it was how well you could group up and take the center until squall hit. Different strategies were tried to cap the the other team's military base, but it was usually anticipated based on the fact that if they weren't capping a base, you could tell where they were. If everyone was tied up in the center, one person might elect to try and ninja cap the other side's garrison which sometimes worked.

 

In the first battle, my team got a point lead but all died after squall (I was the last man standing).

Second game, the other team had the only bomber, they got the point lead and survived after the squall.

Last game, no bombers, my team got the point lead and survived after the squall. 

 

The game felt like it was somehow not working properly without the full team battles. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the game was balanced around full teams. I once made a mod for another game that required at least 5 players to feel balanced, and that was PvE. I don't think WG ever intended 2.0 to be played with less than 12 players; even more so with the bots around filling empty seats


Edited by LMG, 26 November 2017 - 11:51 PM.

This is my IL-2 (t). There are many like it, but this one is mine. :child:

SpiritFoxMY #12 Posted 27 November 2017 - 12:40 AM

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BnZ also has the advantage that I don't have to "show my stuff" to a bunch of guys with way more flying time than me. Although I still managed to make stupid, stupid mistakes like trying to boost up to rake mnbv's belly from below and getting slaughtered in the stall by Buffalo's Reichfire.

 

TnB in a match against aces is like entering a knife fight with Jim Bowie. Only one guy's leaving and it probably ain't the rookie. BnZ means I don't have to prove anything other that I can run. Really, really fast


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So here's to a life of glory

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mnbv_fockewulfe #13 Posted 27 November 2017 - 01:48 AM

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View PostSpiritFoxMY, on 27 November 2017 - 12:40 AM, said:

BnZ also has the advantage that I don't have to "show my stuff" to a bunch of guys with way more flying time than me. Although I still managed to make stupid, stupid mistakes like trying to boost up to rake mnbv's belly from below and getting slaughtered in the stall by Buffalo's Reichfire.

 

TnB in a match against aces is like entering a knife fight with Jim Bowie. Only one guy's leaving and it probably ain't the rookie. BnZ means I don't have to prove anything other that I can run. Really, really fast

 

For TnB you shouldn't have picked the Fw 190. :teethhappy:

Nah, you did good for being new to the game.

Part of the problem (and this is WG's fault) is by accelerating the pace of dog fighting, they massively increased the amount of skill you need in a competitive situation. What before would've taken 5 seconds now takes 2 seconds, and those three seconds lost mean a lot when it comes to decision making and reaction.

This speeding up of gameplay made TnB easier, because mistakes made have less time to be capitalized on, and therefore more mistakes can be made. BnZ by a multitude of factors has been made harder than ever before, but when done right, even more devastatingly effective.

Along with the thing you mention about stalling, I would say the best tactic used in those matches was the bait and stall. One person would act as bait and entice multiple players to climb after him while 2 other allies would swoop in and shoot them up as they stalled.

 


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SpiritFoxMY #14 Posted 27 November 2017 - 03:11 AM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 27 November 2017 - 01:48 AM, said:

 

For TnB you shouldn't have picked the Fw 190. :teethhappy:

Nah, you did good for being new to the game.

Part of the problem (and this is WG's fault) is by accelerating the pace of dog fighting, they massively increased the amount of skill you need in a competitive situation. What before would've taken 5 seconds now takes 2 seconds, and those three seconds lost mean a lot when it comes to decision making and reaction.

This speeding up of gameplay made TnB easier, because mistakes made have less time to be capitalized on, and therefore more mistakes can be made. BnZ by a multitude of factors has been made harder than ever before, but when done right, even more devastatingly effective.

Along with the thing you mention about stalling, I would say the best tactic used in those matches was the bait and stall. One person would act as bait and entice multiple players to climb after him while 2 other allies would swoop in and shoot them up as they stalled.

 

 

I chose the A-5 specifically for Boom n Zoom :p 

 

My Turn n Burn experience in this game has been erratic - sometimes I rake in ridiculous scores and others I pancake and can't even outperform bots. Hence I prefer BnZ  planes as they're fast enough to set the pace of an rngagement. You get to choose when to engage and disengage, you're not at the mercy of being gangbanged in a furball without an exit.

 

All my TnBs are stalled at tier 5 and I rarely roll them out (apart from farming Credits with my Boomerang). I love my BnZs and get more consistent results with them. I might not wipe the floor with bots, but I can put in consistent numbers regardless of the situation.

 

Also, I realized you were baiting me halfway up once someone started shooting at me and you were just straight and level. By that time I was out of options and was just trying to either outlast my tail (didn't know who it was until later) or at least kill the bait. But I ran out of boost and stalled right as you came into optimal cannon range.

 

'Twas a good game :D hope to face you all again without those damn bots


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And a laurel to crown each end


hoom #15 Posted 27 November 2017 - 10:56 AM

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Its interesting how there is so much disparaging '2.0 sux because its all down low & TnB dominate' comments from unhappy vets yet I see BnZ do great, often basically unbeatable in my TnB planes.

Fights at least in T6/7 often seem to climb through a battle & quickly get up where BnZ planes generally run rings around TnB.

Not to say TnB don't do great & BnZ certainly have to spend a lot of time out of battle/may not do much per-pass but I feel they both have their place.


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The_World_Needs_A_Hero #16 Posted 27 November 2017 - 03:29 PM

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The Vet Dream Team lost? lol So much for showing them new guys how to do it....  



SpiritFoxMY #17 Posted 27 November 2017 - 04:41 PM

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View PostThe_World_Needs_A_Hero, on 27 November 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

The Vet Dream Team lost? lol So much for showing them new guys how to do it....  

 

Nah, there was no "Vet Dream Team vs. Rookies" since for all intents and purposes I was the only rookie to participate. Maybe one or two others who mostly hadn't played in ages, but it was mostly old hands duking it out.

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So here's to a life of glory

And a laurel to crown each end


mnbv_fockewulfe #18 Posted 27 November 2017 - 08:42 PM

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View PostThe_World_Needs_A_Hero, on 27 November 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

The Vet Dream Team lost? lol So much for showing them new guys how to do it....  

 

Troll post fail.

vlz5zqy.gif


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MARS_REVENANT #19 Posted 27 November 2017 - 08:51 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 27 November 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

 

Troll post fail.

vlz5zqy.gif

 

This is a good GIF, so I'm going to steal it and use it as my own. And I will not give any credit to the creator.  Also +1.

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mnbv_fockewulfe #20 Posted 28 November 2017 - 02:07 AM

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View Posthoom, on 27 November 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

Its interesting how there is so much disparaging '2.0 sux because its all down low & TnB dominate' comments from unhappy vets yet I see BnZ do great, often basically unbeatable in my TnB planes.

Fights at least in T6/7 often seem to climb through a battle & quickly get up where BnZ planes generally run rings around TnB.

Not to say TnB don't do great & BnZ certainly have to spend a lot of time out of battle/may not do much per-pass but I feel they both have their place.

 

It's not all "BnZ doesn't work anymore"

It's the fact that so much has been changed for the worse.

The UI doesn't provide as much info as it used to- bad

Shooting was made easier- bad

Gameplay was made faster even though this just means that good players will do better than those that can't keep up with the pace- bad

New gamemode doesn't actually add anything better than DM- bad

The list is too numerous to actually list in full-there's just so much unfinished about 2.0.


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