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Multi-role Dilemma/ My Target Priority in Ground Attack Craft


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LMG #21 Posted 25 November 2017 - 12:00 AM

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View PostBobby_Tables, on 24 November 2017 - 06:36 PM, said:

Rockets is gud.  They tend to turn head-on attackers into flaming balls of grease.  Other than that, I do agree with most of the OP's points.  

 

Although I will point out that yesterday I had a team where 3 GAs (2 humans, 1 bot) could not cap a damn garrison.  I had to drop down and finish off some targets with my rockets to cap it.  That was a really crappy team however, they could not hit anything and just flew around the capped garrison for the rest of the battle.  So, yeah, it's good to have some ordnance since in 2.0 it really has little impact on the plane performance.  

 

What planes where they flying? I know some GAAs are horrible in general when stock (looking at you, Stuka :angry:)
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ARCNA442 #22 Posted 25 November 2017 - 01:05 AM

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In general it is more effective to go after fighters than ground targets. However, a heavy or multirole with good A2G ordnance can rack up cap points pretty fast.

 

In my P-47 and P-38 I like to make a fast pass, one bomb each on two AA guns = 30 cap points in just a few seconds. The same can be done even more easily with rockets and destroyers. In both cases I can then use the speed from diving to get back up to altitude and engage enemy fights.

 

Also, the game is not defensively oriented and just defending will only work if the enemy comes at you one at a time. The points systems are balanced to give the attacker an advantage - attackers get 40 points per air defense fighter and 60 per player plus the efforts of their ground attack planes while defenders only get 40 points per attacker. This means an even slightly coordinated attack can flip bases pretty quickly - especially if they are helped by rockets or bombers.



Mercsn #23 Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:11 AM

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View PostBobby_Tables, on 24 November 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

Rockets is gud.  They tend to turn head-on attackers into flaming balls of grease.  Other than that, I do agree with most of the OP's points. 

 

Although I will point out that yesterday I had a team where 3 GAs (2 humans, 1 bot) could not cap a damn garrison.  I had to drop down and finish off some targets with my rockets to cap it.  That was a really crappy team however, they could not hit anything and just flew around the capped garrison for the rest of the battle.  So, yeah, it's good to have some ordnance since in 2.0 it really has little impact on the plane performance. 

 

Again, I do say there are rare instances when it's acceptable.  Helping cap a zone after all aerial targets are dead before moving on to the next can certainly be one of those instances.  But....you've obviously figured out when some of those "makes sense" occasions are.  The vast majority of players I see using ordnance in fighters (HF, MR, and F) are doing it to the detriment of their team.  That's why I posted those questions. To get players to think about it, if they play craft that have it.

 


 

One reason I often see that makes a zone not get captured is that somebody dies to a stupid defense bot...or....wait for it....crashes into the ground or ground target while trying to strafe it.  Thus taking capture points away from the team and negating 2 defense bot kills, essentially.  So, if that was the cause of that zone not being captured, having all the fighters up in the air fight will help prevent that situation in the first place.


 

And, on the subject of ground targets in general, it really is lame that it's not stated anywhere obvious that the WHOLE target group needs to be killed to get any capture credit.  I see GA, bots too (which should be programmed better), shooting up each group, but killing none, then getting flamed by a fighter that finally shows up.  Had they killed a few targets they would have flipped the zone before dying.  Now, they've just negated all their work "softening it up" and given the other team an easy cap:  first by dying in the zone and second, by giving the enemy partially killed target groups to quickly finish off.


 


 


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Mercsn #24 Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:23 AM

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View PostARCNA442, on 24 November 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

In general it is more effective to go after fighters than ground targets. However, a heavy or multirole with good A2G ordnance can rack up cap points pretty fast.

 

In my P-47 and P-38 I like to make a fast pass, one bomb each on two AA guns = 30 cap points in just a few seconds. The same can be done even more easily with rockets and destroyers. In both cases I can then use the speed from diving to get back up to altitude and engage enemy fights.

 

Also, the game is not defensively oriented and just defending will only work if the enemy comes at you one at a time. The points systems are balanced to give the attacker an advantage - attackers get 40 points per air defense fighter and 60 per player plus the efforts of their ground attack planes while defenders only get 40 points per attacker. This means an even slightly coordinated attack can flip bases pretty quickly - especially if they are helped by rockets or bombers.

 

What happens to the capture process if in those few seconds one of your idiot bot (or player) teammates got himself attacked by a neutral defense bot and died?  Those quick points you earned got wiped out.  It doesn't happen every time, but it happens.  And, it's totally preventable:  by killing the fighters instead of doing anything with ground target while air targets are alive.


 

The game is very defense oriented.  You say defense only works "if the enemy comes at you one at a time".  Often, that's exactly what will happen.  Players who don't understand the scoring will do just that.  Players who want their avenger medal will do just that. Bots...will do just that.


 

I see more games lost (on maps without bomber or missile bases) when the blue team has a majority 2 of 3 or 3 of 5 caps and then pushes a red zone...fails to take it and then loses 2 blue zones during respawn.  Attacking when you have a sector and score lead will often instigate a loss.  On maps where there are missile bases and bombers...often the only thing you can do, since there's no teamwork with bots (and the bots teach bad habits) is to play ring around the rosie with all the nodes on the map, hopefully trading 1 for 1. Even so, a team where the bots will kill bombers before they can flip your blue sector or where the enemy keeps trickling into the blue zone their missile base is firing at (killing them will negate the missile capture points) will win by defense.


 

I'm responding to the offense/defense issue because when on defense, there's no reason to use ordnance.  Except as some have pointed out for killing air targets, GA, HF, ai bombers, players flying straight strafing your AA guns, etc).   Heck, I've even bombed a GA in my IL-1 when the guns overheated.  So, I'd actually argue there might be more legitimate uses for ordnance on defense than on offense. lol

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and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Mercsn #25 Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:25 AM

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View PostLMG, on 24 November 2017 - 01:47 AM, said:

 

They do? The most I've seen them do is get stuck when they're too low. We complained about the altitude band cap, but these guys are hard-coded not pitch up :amazed:

 

Bot GA did a pass on an installation and was flying towards a cliff face, failed to get turned around in time to avoid collision with the cliff, iirc.

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and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Mercsn #26 Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:33 AM

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View Posthawkeyededic, on 24 November 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

You are making blanket statements that ring true for most HF and MRF, but the T-6 and higher Republics and T-5 thru T-7 British Heavies are loaded to the teeth with ordinance. They also have the speed and climb ability to switch to an air-to-air role quickly and easily. What you are saying is true for the German, US Navy and Russian MRF and the German and US HF's as well as high tier British heavies, with a couple of exceptions like the F2G.

 

Arguably a HF or MRF hitting ground targets is of more value then chasing bomber formations across the map, especially when those fighters come out of it with more holes in them then a good Swiss Cheese because most players don't know how to properly attack them. Most players think that those big lumbering bombers are easy targets, but they are a trap, they can and will do damage to your plane if you don't use proper tactics, and can/will cost your team a clinched win.

 

Blanket statements are very good for players that don't have the experience with the craft or understanding of the game's scoring mechanics to differentiate.

 

 


 

Also, if my team has control of 3 of 5 zones and a lead in score, I'd much rather see HF and MR and even "light" fighters killing bombers if a blue sector is not under attack than going off into a red sector to shoot a ground target:  "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."  This means that if I have a blue zone, I am scoring points.  If I kill the bombers, and there are not fighters attacking a blue zone, I hold the blue zone and continue scoring points.  If I go into a red zone and attack ground targets, I am risking losing blue zones and not guaranteed to take the red zone (particularly if it's close to the red spawn or is a spawn location).


 

If blue team hasn't secured a lead in zones and score, than obviously some intervention and creativity will be required.  But, again, a fighter (of any class) can flip a zone faster by killing planes than by killing ground targets.  So, if you are trying to take red, kill planes in that zone.  And yes, if all the bots and red enemies are dead and it's almost captured, THEN use ordnance.  But, not while air enemies live.  I think this is probably what you mean, but again, we're aiming the "don't be stupid with ordnance" message at newer players that only see what you actually typed out and aren't able to read between the lines of what you wrote.


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and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Bobby_Tables #27 Posted 25 November 2017 - 04:36 AM

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View PostMercsn, on 24 November 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

 

I see more games lost (on maps without bomber or missile bases) when the blue team has a majority 2 of 3 or 3 of 5 caps and then pushes a red zone...fails to take it and then loses 2 blue zones during respawn.  Attacking when you have a sector and score lead will often instigate a loss.  On maps where there are missile bases and bombers...often the only thing you can do, since there's no teamwork with bots (and the bots teach bad habits) is to play ring around the rosie with all the nodes on the map, hopefully trading 1 for 1. Even so, a team where the bots will kill bombers before they can flip your blue sector or where the enemy keeps trickling into the blue zone their missile base is firing at (killing them will negate the missile capture points) will win by defense.

 

 

I am a bit of a slow learner when it comes to this game.  I agree with the highlighted statement and am slowly learning that yes, defense does win battles especially after you have capped several sectors.  Not sure if it was you or some other player but they were pleading with people to play defense in that exact situation.  Instead the team flew out to a strongly defended sector near the red team's spawn point and was destroyed.  Red team grabbed a sector during the respawn pause and my team who were in for a sure victory turned it into a defeat. 

 

In another similar battle, about 2 humans and myself stuck around a pivotal sector playing defense and ended up winning the game and I racked up the xp as the humans and bots trickled in, attacked ground targets and got stomped by us defenders.  

 

Takes me awhile to put two and two together, but your post helped me do it.   

 

 

 



hawkeyededic #28 Posted 25 November 2017 - 02:03 PM

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View PostSithSteel, on 24 November 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

 

I have an idea on how to attack bombers, but what is your suggestion?

 

Hit them from the sides, top or bottom with high speed slashing attacks makes you a harder target for the gunners to hit. If you have good aim and a sense of when to pull off your target, head-on even the AI gunners have trouble returning fire on you. Never come in from directly behind them, makes you a relatively slow when you take the bombers speed into consideration. Those tactics work well against ILs and other low level GAAs, has worked well since CBT and still does. For formations of bombers in an attack flight, target the bombers on edges first, instead of flying into the middle of a formation. Try to aim for their engines, knocking out an engine/s can slow a bomber causing it to fall behind the rest of the formation, making them an easier target, and yes this does happen in game.

 

These are the same basic tactics employed by Germany against heavy bomber formations, they were effective and reduced the amount of damage and casualties taken when attacking bomber formations. This is one case where using historical tactics works well in game.



 

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trikke #29 Posted 25 November 2017 - 03:24 PM

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View PostMercsn, on 24 November 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

 

What happens to the capture process if in those few seconds one of your idiot bot (or player) teammates got himself attacked by a neutral defense bot and died?  Those quick points you earned got wiped out.  It doesn't happen every time, but it happens.  And, it's totally preventable:  by killing the fighters instead of doing anything with ground target while air targets are alive.


 

The game is very defense oriented.  You say defense only works "if the enemy comes at you one at a time".  Often, that's exactly what will happen.  Players who don't understand the scoring will do just that.  Players who want their avenger medal will do just that. Bots...will do just that.


 

I see more games lost (on maps without bomber or missile bases) when the blue team has a majority 2 of 3 or 3 of 5 caps and then pushes a red zone...fails to take it and then loses 2 blue zones during respawn.  Attacking when you have a sector and score lead will often instigate a loss.  On maps where there are missile bases and bombers...often the only thing you can do, since there's no teamwork with bots (and the bots teach bad habits) is to play ring around the rosie with all the nodes on the map, hopefully trading 1 for 1. Even so, a team where the bots will kill bombers before they can flip your blue sector or where the enemy keeps trickling into the blue zone their missile base is firing at (killing them will negate the missile capture points) will win by defense.


 

I'm responding to the offense/defense issue because when on defense, there's no reason to use ordnance.  Except as some have pointed out for killing air targets, GA, HF, ai bombers, players flying straight strafing your AA guns, etc).   Heck, I've even bombed a GA in my IL-1 when the guns overheated.  So, I'd actually argue there might be more legitimate uses for ordnance on defense than on offense. lol

:izmena:

 

excellent post, and counterintuitive for new pilots 

 

and some old pilots too


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Mercsn #30 Posted 01 December 2017 - 06:10 AM

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Updated with video exampleof why fighters (ANY fighter, HF, MR, or F) shouldn't attack ground targets, unless there are no air targets available.

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The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

trikke #31 Posted 01 December 2017 - 04:10 PM

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i've been 'that guy' in the past

 

but i'm not 'that guy' anymore...  i don't have the brain horsepower to be effective at two completely different missions at the same time


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pyantoryng #32 Posted 01 December 2017 - 04:23 PM

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Battle flows and stuff happens, those kind of things are difficult to describe...

 

Fighters attacking grounds have their place, but those are too often extraordinary...



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Mercsn #33 Posted 04 December 2017 - 06:00 AM

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View Posttrikke, on 01 December 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

i've been 'that guy' in the past

 

but i'm not 'that guy' anymore...  i don't have the brain horsepower to be effective at two completely different missions at the same time

 

View Postpyantoryng, on 01 December 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

Battle flows and stuff happens, those kind of things are difficult to describe...

 

Fighters attacking grounds have their place, but those are too often extraordinary...

 

@pyan  I fully agree that there are certain, limited times when it is useful, but that those occasions when a fighter should attack a ground target are rare, and pretty much never ever when any air targets are nearby.  Experienced players can find the differences, new-ish players or players in fighters who want to err on the side of helping their team rather than hurting should stick to killing air targets.

 


 

And...I've seen trikke's w/r go up something like 5 or 6% since he stopped doing goofy things like playing GA in a fighter.  He's having more fun and winning more games.  Anybody who loses more than they like and is playing there MR or HF like the HF in the vid I linked could boost their fun factor and win rate by asking themselves the questions I pose in the original post and thinking about what the quickest way to capture a sector is (killing planes) and the best way to stay alive to do so (not flying straight and level).


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trikke #34 Posted 04 December 2017 - 07:48 PM

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View PostMercsn, on 04 December 2017 - 01:00 AM, said:

And...I've seen trikke's w/r go up something like 5 or 6% since he stopped doing goofy things like playing GA in a fighter.  He's having more fun and winning more games.  Anybody who loses more than they like and is playing there MR or HF like the HF in the vid I linked could boost their fun factor and win rate by asking themselves the questions I pose in the original post and thinking about what the quickest way to capture a sector is (killing planes) and the best way to stay alive to do so (not flying straight and level).

 

i'm living proof that Mercsn's advice will up your noob game to the next level!    ty, man!


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pyantoryng #35 Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:50 PM

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Here's a Blue Moon Story...

 

A while ago I fired my BV212's R4M at an AA gun after the command center ran out of planes...then went to lone mining plant to the southwest next, shot down enemy GA and inhibited the process long enough for friendly GA and bomber to show up and then I finished the place by last-shotting a target with some R4M...I stuck around and killed that same GA again, then R4M a HF that thought I was easy picking at low health and stayed head on, then killed a Seafang that somehow didn't shot my battered plane. Suicided for a fresh plane. Match was already over with a crushing victory for my team. The plant was never in danger of getting captured while enemy team managed to get distracted by bombers...

 

I'm a n00b...but I was already too sleepy to think straight...



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Mercsn #36 Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:50 AM

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So, here's a perfect example of what will happen when the ENTIRE HUMAN compliment of a team decides to play ground attack (except me of course, because well, I know playing GA when I'm NOT IN A GA is bad for me and my team!).  Note, there's only one human player ACTUALLY in a GA!!  I didn't include a screenshot of his performance because, well, he's a GA and it's his job (and only his job!!) to attack ground targets.


 

Attacking ground targets in fighters will cause you to get killed, earn little credits or xp, and generally lose more matches than if the same player, in the same plane attacks AIRCRAFT.   Preeeety simple.


 

Let the shaming lesson begin! (The names of the players have been removed.  We all do stupid things now and then. They've been sent a link to the page, hopefully they'll learn).


 

Spoiler


 

Spoiler


 

Spoiler


 

Spoiler

 


 

The biggest take-away lesson from these pictures is that the more ground attacking you do in a fighter, the more you are going to die in a match.  Attacking ground targets makes you an EASY target for an enemy fighter.  AND, while you are attacking a ground target you are doing NOTHING to prevent that enemy fighter from attacking you (like, oh...say, attacking HIM!).


 

Enemy planes will kill you much, MUCH faster than enemy AA or Flak.  If you are in a squishy fighters and worried about flak damage, fly lower.  Most zones have defense bots at both low and middle/high altitude.  If you attack the lower altitude planes first, the higher altitude planes will come down for you.


 

The other thing this team did wrong was that they were all focused on mid (except the GA who was actually trying to go off to a perimeter zone...slowly).  So, the enemy team had mid captured.  My teammates valiantly flung themselves at mid's air defenses (earning VERY FEW capture points in the progress) and gave the enemy fighters easy kills.


 

These guys show us exactly why fighters (ANY kind of fighter that isn't a dedicated GA or Bomber) should always attack aerial targets FIRST and ONLY attack ground targets if there are ZERO air targets available.

:facepalm:

:child:

:amazed:


 


Edited by Mercsn, 09 January 2018 - 04:56 AM.

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Destroyer_Suzukaze #37 Posted 09 January 2018 - 07:16 AM

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This is what a multi-role result should look like

 

 

 

 



hoom #38 Posted 09 January 2018 - 09:27 AM

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Well I've actually used La-9 quite a lot for helping bot GAs get early Plant cap when the MM gives my team only one or two bot GAs.

There are quite a few maps in T8 with Plants by spawn & getting that cap ASAP while the big furball happens in the centre helps tremendously with winning.

 

The 4* 23mm with Universal ammo actually put out a fairly decent amount of damage to ground targets.

Sometimes I just do a pass or two killing AA guns en-route to the cap past the Plant so the GAs don't need to waste time on them & they don't mess up the Bombers, come back to help finish off after securing that cap if they haven't managed to cap it yet.

 

I've also done a lot of anti-GA work with the La-9, either intercepting them on their way to your side of the map/preventing them from flipping your capped Plant.

Diving across the map to their Plant to delay their cap by killing the GAs has been successful sometimes, does risk accelerating their cap if a couple of enemy fighters turn up & kill you though.

 

Sometimes I'll take a low pass on the center cap killing AA in the absence of GAs while the furball continues above, I figure less damage suffered from the AA will help my team more than the pretty high chance of just dying quickly in the furball.

Often drags a fighter or two down where they can be dealt with relatively safely.

 

 

Spitfire XIV which otherwise plays similarly to La-9 is no good for anything more than a pass against Plant AA guns, the 20mm don't hurt the hard targets.

 

I really disagree with Beaufighters not using their GA ability, they can get in & basically one-pass flip a cap really early. Definitely go air-to-air most of the rest of the time though.

 

I try to drop the Skua bomb as often as I can, most of the time you can get it off only a few secs after you'd be firing at Defense fighters otherwise & its a near guaranteed ground target 1-shot (also there is no speed or maneuvrability penalty for the bomb).

 

I've been using the bombs on Hawk III mainly because that PoS needs anything to help make up for its horrendously poor machinegun dps, like the Skua it generally gets the bombs off for a 1-shot ground target only a couple of secs after you'd normally engage defense fighters.

 

But everything else (thats not a Bomber or GA) I've played pure AA (except in rare cases like all defense fighters/enemy  in the area are dead, near complete cap, no GAs or bots that aren't doing much & there is something easy to kill like a 4 tent ground target).


Edited by hoom, 09 January 2018 - 09:36 AM.

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

SpiritFoxMY #39 Posted 09 January 2018 - 09:33 AM

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I think Mercsn is just generalizing for popular consumption. Knowing when and how to take your MF to attack a ground target is a skill in and of itself that comes from playing and observing.

 

I too use my Dora in the Ground Attack role on occasion - either to speed up a cap or to contribute without getting sucked into an unwinnable deathball. But you still need to know when your team would benefit from that and when it would be better to just pick off strays from the deathball or other GAAs trying to ninja a cap


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StoptheViolins #40 Posted 09 January 2018 - 03:21 PM

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Not all MR are equal. P-47 series need to kill GTs to get cap points since they can't turn nor go all that fast. A P-47 can take out 2-3 blocks of Plants and 2-3 AA batteries on a single pass. At that point they should loiter and defend the GA craft. In the current meta it's rewarding for MR and Heavies to kill GA to flip a sector.

For GAs to not go hunting in red zones it depends on the GA. IL series - shouldn't be a problem since they aren't good at GA fights vs DE planes. Of course if you can count you should be able to see if a sector is devoid of enemy planes. Toss in even all human teams tend to not defend outside the mosh pit. Nor spend time hunting GAs.

You just need to flip targets faster than the enemy's GA to be effective.

 

USSR MR are geared towards hunting harder air targets like bombers.

 

UK heavies lie between MR, Heavies, and GA which gets sort of punished by the current mechanics.  They get all the nice bombs but are saddled with the same requirements as regular fighters.


Edited by StoptheViolins, 09 January 2018 - 03:25 PM.





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