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Skill Ceiling on WW2 Dogfighting


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Desmios #1 Posted 16 November 2017 - 07:12 PM

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Hey all,

 

   I am curious as to how high you think the skill ceiling could go in 1942ish WW2 as far as aerial dog-fighting; and how much luck played a factor.

 

  For instance: if you were to take the best chess player in the world and put them up against someone who just started, the GM will have a 100% success rate.  Do you think a veteran dogfighter would have the same success rate against new pilots?

 

  How many 'average' pilot do you think the 'best' pilots could take on?

 

edit: assume planes and armament are exactly the same

 

p.s. is it true americans didnt give their pilots parachutes until late in the war because they didn't want them bailing out at the first sign of trouble?


Edited by Desmios, 16 November 2017 - 07:16 PM.


Wombatmetal #2 Posted 16 November 2017 - 07:45 PM

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The allies (UK, France, Russia) used to complain at the lengths and expense the US went to to avoid loss of life for servicemen

 

Not true



ARCNA442 #3 Posted 16 November 2017 - 08:00 PM

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We tend to have this image of pilots engaging in "dogfights" where individual skill and aircraft characteristics determine the winner. The problem is that WWII saw the beginnings of modern networked air warfare. In an environment with radar directed centralized fighter control and plane to plane radios, the skill of the individual pilots becomes far less important than their ability to function as part of a larger whole. The Japanese failed to recognize this and believed that superior pilots would allow them to win in the face of American technological superiority. However, not only did training and technology tend to prevail against individual skill, but the veteran pilots were impossible to replace whereas the American system could produce an unlimited amount of inexperienced but well trained and equipped pilots.

 

That said, pilot skill was extremely important. What we tend to miss when playing games like WoWP is that just flying a high performance 1940's fighter was an extremely difficult and dangerous task. Without a modern understanding of aerodynamics combined with the less precise manufacturing methods of the time meant that the performance envelopes of aircraft were much less well defined than they are now and the quality of individual planes could vary significantly. This meant that pushing your fighter too hard could kill you quite easily. However, it also meant that an expert pilot could get performance from his plane that less skilled pilots could not (reflected in WoWP by pilot training and skills). Further, a WWII pilot didn't have the situational awareness tools that us players take for granted - no minimaps, no range indicators, no HUD, and using the gunsight or checking the (analog) instruments meant looking away from the battle. Being able to keep the plane in the air while keeping track of what was going on around you was quite a skill in itself.

 

When all of this is combined with the better reflexes, vision, awareness, and tactics of the best pilots (and players), it is quite easy to see how the famous aces ran up incredibly high kill totals. I would guess that in a balanced one on one where both pilots were aware of the other a skilled pilot could maintain a 100% win rate against unskilled opponenta. However, the truly skilled pilots would never get in this situation and instead use surprise to down enemies who weren't even aware of their presence.



Wombatmetal #4 Posted 16 November 2017 - 08:19 PM

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I was watching a P38 documentary last night and one of the pilots was contemptuous of the Japanese who tried to dogfight like it was still WWI. 

Desmios #5 Posted 16 November 2017 - 08:32 PM

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Thanks all,

 

For clarification:

 

it was ww1 where they didn't give the pilots parachutes

 

http://www.thehistor...es-world-war-1/



FIight #6 Posted 16 November 2017 - 08:45 PM

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One thing for sure, Marseille is considered by many to be more

skillful than Erich Hartmann, since he scored 158 aerial victory

against western allies which were better trained and more experienced

than the soviet pilots at the time.

 

BF-109F-6 is not the best aircraft of the time, but Marseille had a clear

mind of the pros and cons of his plane, and knew how to tactically use

it against RAF hurricane and spitfire.  



Furysghost #7 Posted 16 November 2017 - 09:15 PM

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This is a great example of the few who were the real ACES the maybe 10% who shot down the bulk of the enemy most like Buzz were superb pilots and shots with ice water in their veins.

 

http://fly.historicw...g-ace-of-malta/

 

The 1 Fin ACE stated he had no wish to dog fight with the enemy he stalked them, ambushed them, and killed them just as he did as a boy hunting game he racked up a very high kill total. If he could not get the height advantage and a good setup he would leave and look for another opportunity.

He was flying a Brewster Buffalo at the time.



Desmios #8 Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:20 PM

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View PostFurysghost, on 16 November 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:

This is a great example of the few who were the real ACES the maybe 10% who shot down the bulk of the enemy most like Buzz were superb pilots and shots with ice water in their veins.

 

http://fly.historicw...g-ace-of-malta/

 

The 1 Fin ACE stated he had no wish to dog fight with the enemy he stalked them, ambushed them, and killed them just as he did as a boy hunting game he racked up a very high kill total. If he could not get the height advantage and a good setup he would leave and look for another opportunity.

He was flying a Brewster Buffalo at the time.

 

From what I understand, something like 10% of pilots were responsible for 75%+ of all kills.

StoptheViolins #9 Posted 17 November 2017 - 11:54 AM

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Recently I have been trying to avoid shooting down players who are obviously n00bs when trying to do lower tier missions especially when I am in a much better plane and in an open area.  If I am in a worse plane than them or over a cap it's gloves off.

The logic is not to seal club.  I realize that the other player might not get the clue that a wing wave means go away, kid but will react to their posture accordingly.

I'd not play and plane below my current research level if it wasn't for those missions. When I do I pick the plane that will allow me to get 9k+ points easy.

trikke #10 Posted 19 November 2017 - 04:30 PM

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i need to stop flying low tiers today

 

brand new pilots need to learn how to fly and look around and think about things without getting sniped, if they're going to get hooked in this game

 

i'm not a competent pilot, but i shouldn't be killing new human players

 

and maybe i should have typed more...

 

 

edit:  i haven't tried the new bot-gets-an-asterisk mod yet

 

does it show the asterisk in-battle when you press Alt?


Spittoon says #smarterpilotswinmore

SpiritFoxMY #11 Posted 19 November 2017 - 04:49 PM

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I still stomp around at lower tiers, though right now its more because I have tier 2 - 5 Premiums to grind for skills and silver. I really don't take the time to identify human from bot though I usually pick on bots anyway since they're easier to kill (which means more XP and Silver when the mission is over)

***

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