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Best t6 turn and burn


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S4pp3REffecT #21 Posted 21 November 2017 - 06:48 PM

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Sorry, A6M5 is still better IMO.

Specially in this cap-focused game-play. Basically take the priority cap, let's say a solo military base. Then just patrol the damn thing while enemy after enemy streams in, pick off target after target because nothing out-turns you.

Just gotta watch out for BnZs

HazeGrayUnderway #22 Posted 22 November 2017 - 01:50 AM

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View PostStoptheViolins, on 21 November 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

Spits and other turners don't like the 302 when used properly. The spit can't turn fast enough to get at it because it's out of range by the time they do.

 

Boom & Zoom are pretty useless in caps.  Zooming away just leaves your outnumbered teammates to be devoured by the Fighter Mafia at the cap.  With what should be, say, 5 vs 5 at the cap, it's really 4 vs 5 when the B&Z zips out the cap.

 

Even a handful of dumb Bot T&B fighters are more useful than 1 B&Z player.  The bot fighters stay in the fight and dogpile on a target.  The B&Z just leaves the team behind and has time for one pass.


Edited by HazeGrayUnderway, 22 November 2017 - 01:52 AM.


egikov #23 Posted 22 November 2017 - 02:27 AM

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Maneuverability in lines:

1.A6M Zero,

2. Yak-1,

3. Ki-61, Spitfire,

4. La-5,

5. Bf-109, Mig-3,

6. P-51,Yak-9,

7. P-47, FW-190,

8. Heavies,

9. Attack planes,

10. Bombers.

 

A6M Zero have the highest maneuverability. They sacrifice speed and altitude.

Yaks-1s are faster, but sacrifice armament and altitude. I sometimes fly them, they are fun. Less maneuverable than Zero.

Yak-7 line is a big cannon line, and they are not as maneuverable as many planes here. Their cannons are very slow, that make it not easy to shoot at small planes.

La-5 line have better maneuverability than Yak-7 line usually, and have good cannons. They fly a little higher than Yak-1/7.

Spitfires are jack of all trades, that struggle at the altitude and can't get to speed fast. They outperform La-5s, but takes time.

Ki-61 line have very good specs - a little better than a Spitfire at altitude. But many of them have low hp and die fast by AA and other fighters. I don't have much experience in them, but they are very dangerous enemies as a stand alone fighter- they are fast, have high altitude and good armament. I might try to buy Ki in the future.

 

Personally, I don't like this kind of planes in 2.0 because they can't do anything about flight of bombers, stand alone bombers, heavies, attack planes (because of low hp) and if they don't have good speed, you can't get to important enemy base in time. However, sometimes I need a plane that can kill a lot of planes fast and I choose Bf-109 for this. They are fast, can fly at high altitude, more maneuverable than Heavy fighters and all US fighters, have more hp than Japanese fighters. Bf-109f have low armament, but if you aim good, it's not hard to kill a plane. Bf-109s can still kill bots on the bases easy, because bots don't turn much.

Mig-3 line are similar to Bf-109 line, but has less speed, usually less armament.



S4pp3REffecT #24 Posted 22 November 2017 - 03:36 AM

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View Postegikov, on 22 November 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:

Maneuverability in lines:

1.A6M Zero,

2. Yak-1,

3. Ki-61, Spitfire,

4. La-5,

5. Bf-109, Mig-3,

6. P-51,Yak-9,

7. P-47, FW-190,

8. Heavies,

9. Attack planes,

10. Bombers.

 

A6M Zero have the highest maneuverability. They sacrifice speed and altitude.

Yaks-1s are faster, but sacrifice armament and altitude. I sometimes fly them, they are fun. Less maneuverable than Zero.

Yak-7 line is a big cannon line, and they are not as maneuverable as many planes here. Their cannons are very slow, that make it not easy to shoot at small planes.

La-5 line have better maneuverability than Yak-7 line usually, and have good cannons. They fly a little higher than Yak-1/7.

Spitfires are jack of all trades, that struggle at the altitude and can't get to speed fast. They outperform La-5s, but takes time.

Ki-61 line have very good specs - a little better than a Spitfire at altitude. But many of them have low hp and die fast by AA and other fighters. I don't have much experience in them, but they are very dangerous enemies as a stand alone fighter- they are fast, have high altitude and good armament. I might try to buy Ki in the future.

 

Personally, I don't like this kind of planes in 2.0 because they can't do anything about flight of bombers, stand alone bombers, heavies, attack planes (because of low hp) and if they don't have good speed, you can't get to important enemy base in time. However, sometimes I need a plane that can kill a lot of planes fast and I choose Bf-109 for this. They are fast, can fly at high altitude, more maneuverable than Heavy fighters and all US fighters, have more hp than Japanese fighters. Bf-109f have low armament, but if you aim good, it's not hard to kill a plane. Bf-109s can still kill bots on the bases easy, because bots don't turn much.

Mig-3 line are similar to Bf-109 line, but has less speed, usually less armament.

 

Great post but you left our MR, lol...

 

Ki I'm about to start on my T7...

So far compared to the A6/A7s they are a tad more speedy, almost as good agility but less firepower. I'm constantly thinking 'Zero would have killed this guy by now.'

 

Still I'm hoping 7+ get better...



vonluckner #25 Posted 22 November 2017 - 03:48 AM

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View PostS4pp3REffecT, on 21 November 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

Sorry, A6M5 is still better IMO.

Specially in this cap-focused game-play. Basically take the priority cap, let's say a solo military base. Then just patrol the damn thing while enemy after enemy streams in, pick off target after target because nothing out-turns you.

Just gotta watch out for BnZs

 

 

Raw TnB is academic.

 

You're just arguing hypothetical 1v1s when the reality is that in the furball things like HP, climb rate, roll rate, weapon overheating etc. pay untold dividends over JUST being able to turn. All it takes is one guy to see you as a target of opportunity and you're back to picking a spawn point... it cannot be stressed how fundamentally true this is for a hard TnB aircraft like the Zero. Once everyone is on the deck going lower than their optimal speed, shooting a Zero out of the sky is like shooting a [edited]balloon. It doesn't matter how well they can turn when you're rocking multiple cannons and can hose them down from 2000ft+. They move so damn slow that any evasive maneuver they make is irrelevant as they simply can't move far enough to pull any kind of angular velocity on you... unlike the Spitfire which gets quite a bit more from boost, or even moreseo the Yak-1M or La-5 that can also roll to change their plane of travel, which is especially effective against HFs.

 

Having better climb rate and top speed lets you maintain an energy advantage.. the furball almost always loses altitude and speed as people trade their stored energy for maneuvers or extending the duration they have to shoot at targets with brakes. As this happens, the aircraft with higher speed and better climb rates begin to take an energy lead on the others.. they can end up rising to the top of the fight where the low, slow brainlets can no longer reach them. The extreme example of this is IMO light HFs like the P-38, XP-58 (and I'm assuming F5U) that can dogfight vertically just rolling loops off the top of a slow furball, shooting down into it against enemies that have used all their boost.

 

That's why the Spitfire is so strong. It has only marginally worse maneuverability for being literally better at everything. Yeah it gets out-turned by an A6M, but that hardly matters when you're arriving at the fight from a higher altitude and with more speed (thus sooner and with more energy). 30 seconds later the advantage will be even more pronounced as the Zero has lost much of its energy and struggles to recuperate.

 

IMO the best TnB fighter isn't literally the best one at turning, but the best fighter that uses TnB as its primary tactic. At T6 that's Spitfire V almost beyond debate.



pyantoryng #26 Posted 22 November 2017 - 04:47 AM

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Now I remember why the Zero doesn't compare to Yak-1M in turn battles...and that is because the Zero has nothing else for maneuverability except turning time. Underpowered and sluggish rolling.

 

For all its maneuverability, the Ki line gets 30mm at tier 7 which makes them much more deadly in turning battles where speed tend to be slower and those big guns can land shots easier...



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S4pp3REffecT #27 Posted 22 November 2017 - 05:17 AM

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View Postvonluckner, on 22 November 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

 

 

Raw TnB is academic.

 

You're just arguing hypothetical 1v1s when the reality is that in the furball things like HP, climb rate, roll rate, weapon overheating etc. pay untold dividends over JUST being able to turn. All it takes is one guy to see you as a target of opportunity and you're back to picking a spawn point... it cannot be stressed how fundamentally true this is for a hard TnB aircraft like the Zero. Once everyone is on the deck going lower than their optimal speed, shooting a Zero out of the sky is like shooting a [edited]balloon. It doesn't matter how well they can turn when you're rocking multiple cannons and can hose them down from 2000ft+. They move so damn slow that any evasive maneuver they make is irrelevant as they simply can't move far enough to pull any kind of angular velocity on you... unlike the Spitfire which gets quite a bit more from boost, or even moreseo the Yak-1M or La-5 that can also roll to change their plane of travel, which is especially effective against HFs.

 

Having better climb rate and top speed lets you maintain an energy advantage.. the furball almost always loses altitude and speed as people trade their stored energy for maneuvers or extending the duration they have to shoot at targets with brakes. As this happens, the aircraft with higher speed and better climb rates begin to take an energy lead on the others.. they can end up rising to the top of the fight where the low, slow brainlets can no longer reach them. The extreme example of this is IMO light HFs like the P-38, XP-58 (and I'm assuming F5U) that can dogfight vertically just rolling loops off the top of a slow furball, shooting down into it against enemies that have used all their boost.

 

That's why the Spitfire is so strong. It has only marginally worse maneuverability for being literally better at everything. Yeah it gets out-turned by an A6M, but that hardly matters when you're arriving at the fight from a higher altitude and with more speed (thus sooner and with more energy). 30 seconds later the advantage will be even more pronounced as the Zero has lost much of its energy and struggles to recuperate.

 

IMO the best TnB fighter isn't literally the best one at turning, but the best fighter that uses TnB as its primary tactic. At T6 that's Spitfire V almost beyond debate.

 

I'll defer to anyone on game knowledge in here because I'm new to 2.0 and maybe my experience is skewed because I constantly do well in the Zero line, even against pure player teams...

 

I'm also only at T6 or about to be on my other lines, so my knowledge is far from complete.

 

Thanks for the in depth response!



hoom #28 Posted 22 November 2017 - 06:09 AM

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Having a bit of a hard time with La-7 (my first T7), it seems to be stuck in an uncomfortable intermediate.

If I go low I get ganked by Spits & A6es.

If I go high all the BnZers bounce me & I lack speed/firepower to take them out.

Not fully upgraded yet so maybe things will improve with full upgrade?


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S4pp3REffecT #29 Posted 22 November 2017 - 07:11 AM

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View Posthoom, on 22 November 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

Having a bit of a hard time with La-7 (my first T7), it seems to be stuck in an uncomfortable intermediate.

If I go low I get ganked by Spits & A6es.

If I go high all the BnZers bounce me & I lack speed/firepower to take them out.

Not fully upgraded yet so maybe things will improve with full upgrade?

 

Always save free XP and use it to upgrade your new plane, this is same with tanks and ships.

 

I'm a rubbish player at everything but the A6s/A7

I need my tier 7 Ki ASAP, I'm horrible with the J7M1



vonluckner #30 Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:34 AM

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View Posthoom, on 22 November 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

Having a bit of a hard time with La-7 (my first T7), it seems to be stuck in an uncomfortable intermediate.

If I go low I get ganked by Spits & A6es.

If I go high all the BnZers bounce me & I lack speed/firepower to take them out.

Not fully upgraded yet so maybe things will improve with full upgrade?

 

I think the trick with the Lavochkins is to use your speed to avoid A6Ms, and try to beat Spitfires in a scissors. Go a little slower than them and beat them to the turns with your far superior roll rate. I haven't played the La-7, only the La-5 and La-11, and haven't had the chance to really 1v1 a Spitfire. Mathematically it should work as it takes 2.4s vs. 2.15s to complete a 90 degree turn, and ~0.5s vs ~0.9s in the 90 degree roll between, La-7 and Spit IX. You'll be beating him to the gun solution by a fraction of a second every time (exactly how much is hard to say, as it's dependent upon how well the Spitfire turns while rolling vs. the Lavochkin banking into max turn rate much faster) with more firepower and more HP. Either way, it's your best shot and much better than just pretending you're a MR and kissing your [edited]goodbye.

 

That's assuming equal speeds, if your opponent doesn't manage their speed and you drop speed, they'll pass in front of you and have to run. Even assuming you complete the turns at the same time, they will have moved further to execute the same turn, which is pretty much game over for them.

 

Against BnZ, you want to use your roll rate to force an overshoot. You can bait a head-on, then as they start shooting snap roll one way out to about 45 degrees from your original path of travel, give it a 1-2 count, then snap roll back in a different direction and carry it through with a turn. If you time it correctly you should end up right behind them. You can try this from any angle but it's most effective if they're coming right at you as it gives them the least time to react to your movements, brings them the closest to you, and doesn't involve dumping your speed to execute (as you'd probably still need to brake if they're behind you).

 

This is also sort of goes off-topic as La- aren't really turn and burn, just better than average and pretty nimble thanks to the roll rate.


Edited by vonluckner, 22 November 2017 - 10:32 AM.


S4pp3REffecT #31 Posted 22 November 2017 - 09:33 AM

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Upon closer inspection/practice/attention, whether a Zero wins depends on one turn and one chance at damage...

It's the first turn. The faster the enemy, the more useless the Zero is.
Essentially the more BnZ the enemy is, the greater the chance of losing the dogfight is.

Otherwise if you can aim and no one else is diving on you, it's down to the Zeroes DPM

SithSteel #32 Posted 23 November 2017 - 02:02 AM

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My only T6 is my Ki-61, but I've found that I can outturn almost anyone.



hoom #33 Posted 23 November 2017 - 08:09 AM

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Block Quote

 Always save free XP and use it to upgrade your new plane, this is same with tanks and ships.

 Well yeah, I guess I should spank myself for that.

The number of times I've spanked people on WoT/WoWS forums for complaining about stock/not fully upgraded Tanks/Ships underperforming I really should have known better :hiding:

 

I'd suffered a series of very disappointing battles, next couple were pretty solid, partly aided by getting the 23mm guns & already had the engine.

As a non-premium player I tend to be stingy with my Free XP, I'll use it to accelerate access to key upgrades like the engine but I rarely buy them outright.


C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

S4pp3REffecT #34 Posted 23 November 2017 - 07:00 PM

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View Posthoom, on 23 November 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

 Well yeah, I guess I should spank myself for that.

The number of times I've spanked people on WoT/WoWS forums for complaining about stock/not fully upgraded Tanks/Ships underperforming I really should have known better :hiding:

 

I'd suffered a series of very disappointing battles, next couple were pretty solid, partly aided by getting the 23mm guns & already had the engine.

As a non-premium player I tend to be stingy with my Free XP, I'll use it to accelerate access to key upgrades like the engine but I rarely buy them outright.

 

Yeah anytime I don't, I regret it...

Most I'll just get gun upgrades but some I do the lot, ie J7W1.

It's one of the few things I spend money on...



ramp4ge #35 Posted 23 November 2017 - 08:54 PM

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Ki-61 is probably the best all-around turn fighter at tier 6. It's not the absolute best turner, but it's the best turner that can still do other things well.All of the other turn fighters that turn better lack severely in other areas. The Ki-61 does not. It's a fantastic fighter.

hoom #36 Posted 24 November 2017 - 12:09 PM

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So I've got the Yak-1 (not yet M), its really fun in T5 :)

Nimble like the LaGG-3 but seems to keep speed reasonably well unlike the LaGG & I'm probably better at pulsing the gun than before so not finding it especially lacking in firepower.

 


C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

jack_wdw #37 Posted 24 November 2017 - 01:54 PM

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yak-1m will be even better (i liked that plane alot in the previous version)

hoom #38 Posted 28 November 2017 - 05:38 AM

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Not exactly anything related to TnB in T6...

As far as I've seen Human players are explicitly mirrored though.

 

Edit: oh I see he's just flooding every thread with that :popcorn:


Edited by hoom, 28 November 2017 - 05:50 AM.

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.

jack_wdw #39 Posted 28 November 2017 - 09:38 AM

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Huh ?
Yak1m not TnB-related in tier VI?
What do you call it then?
And as i recall this is the only time i've mentioned it, don't get your flooding comment.

I liked the yak-1m better than the next tier Yak-3.
General drawback in this line (and most other TnB lines) is that the altitude bandings are not in favor of the yak-line (especially when you start progressing from tier VI).
I've only grinded the yak-3 to get the yak-15 (which was also fun, fully upgraded)
I stopped grinding that line at Tier VIII, because in 1.9 it seemed pointless to continue with highly manoeuvrable jets that lacked altitude performance.

The Lavochkin line is better suited for the higher tiers.

Edited by jack_wdw, 28 November 2017 - 09:45 AM.


hoom #40 Posted 28 November 2017 - 10:46 AM

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Sorry, someone angry was spamming something about 2 vs 1 in all the threads, mods appear to have removed it now.

Edited by hoom, 28 November 2017 - 10:48 AM.

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas le SerB.




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