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Turn Fighting - Any Tips?


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delp5117 #1 Posted 15 November 2017 - 04:59 AM

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Since the meta in 2.0 is heavy on turn-fighting, I was wondering if anyone can shed some light on a few questions for new players...

 

1) Does a joystick give you a turn-fighting advantage?  It seems clunky to keep trying to turn tightly with a mouse (I'm sure my turn rate is not consistent, either).

2) Once you are locked in a turn-fight, is there any way out (besides having cover from a wingman/teammates)?  It seems like changing horizontal direction or diving does not end well.

 

3) Does it make sense to load up on turn rate enhancing equipment and pilot skills in most light fighters (except for BnZ)?

 

4) Does using manual flaps allow you to increase turn rate without slowing down as much?  Is there an advantage to this versus the "S" key?

 

Thanks in advance! :honoring:



Mercsn #2 Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:11 AM

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I'm no expert and still re-learning the game after a 3.5 year absence, but....


 

1)

I haven't tried the current game with a joystick.  In the past, mouse aiming was more fluid than joystick aiming unless you were a really crack joystick pilot.  However, you can do some things to help turning.  First, set a keybind for "pitch up".  I use spacebar because it's easy to find in a hairy turn-fight (I use "B" for bombs, harder to find, but I use it waaay less often and usually when people aren't shooting at me anyways).  Having a pitch up key, will allow you to keep turning while lifting your mouse, if you need to reposition because you ran out of mousepad area in a prolonged turning situation.  It will also keep your turn rate "maxed" out, which you, rightly, feel is a concern that your turn rate is "not consistent".  The current control scheme customizations offer very little in the way of customization and there's no setting to determine how much you need to move the mouse for "maxiumum" turn.  But, with pitch up, roll your wings and hit pitch up, you should be at max turn. This moves us to...


 

Go into advanced controls and turn down (move slider left) for roll reset.  While having the higher roll will make your plane follow your mouse inputs quicker if you are chasing a target on the screen, it will also cause the code to roll the wings when you don't want it to (say, you have wing guns and you want to keep your wings in alignment with your targets wings through a turn -but the code is happy to roll your plane in a different way that what you'd want).  This is a setting you'll have to fiddle with to find some compromise between quick response and manual control.  When I played regularly, I had this setting turn completely off.  Then you are forced to manually roll with your keys (A and D in my case).  It gives a much more joystick like feel to flying in that YOU are telling the plane where to go AND how to get there.  With roll slider at max (fully right), you're just telling the plane where to go and letting the code decide how to get there.


 

A joystick may give an advantage in changing the fight between horizontal and vertical maneuvers. To aid this in a mouse scheme, set keybinds for yaw left/right (I use Q and E).  In a turn fight, you can use yaw to bring your nose up and over while turning.  This will sometimes help you cut a turn "tighter" because you're going over the top instead of just in a flat circle (some craft like this more than other, YMMV).  Moving between horizontal and vertical is also, usually, more effective against humans, although the newer, easier mouse flight seems to counter this better, if the player hasn't lost sight of you.  So, in a turn-fight, I'll have my wings rolled and pressing spacebar and then also press Q or E to yaw the nose up (or even down, if I plan to reverse my turn, but don't want to do it in a flat plane, say if I want my enemy to overshoot).


 

There's a reasonable amount of maneuvering control you can have with mouse, it just takes some practice to figure out how to do what you want.  Don't be afraid to setup a training room to practice flying.  Just put a few harmless bots in there and fly around until the AA kills them.


 

2)

This depends somewhat on your opponent (skill as well as human or ai), your aircraft, your damage state, the situation nearby.  Often, a combination of changing between vertical and horizontal (controls described above) will help throw off a pursuer enough that they will make a mistake in chasing you and allow you to get a burst into them as you're going around (and hopefully a crit to wings/tail/pilot/engine), to help you either gain advantage to win the fight or find room to escape.  If you confound an ai pilot long enough, and there are other targets nearby (defense bots or teammates), the ai (and human players too, it seems) will give up on you and go shoot the target that they can get an easier shot on.  Which, in turn, gives you a shot on them.  So, if you get stuck in a tough turn-fight, just making yourself as difficult to hit as possible may encourage your attacker to give up.  This takes patience...and some luck: if another enemy shows up and decides to target you, dodging 2 is more difficult than one.


 

Another possibility, requiring other friendly and enemy craft in the area is:  If, while your looping, turning, and evading, you see a teammate with an enemy on his tail (or even a teammate trying to shoot an enemy), and you think you can quickly kill that enemy, you may try to do so to free that teammate up, who then (if it's ai), may help you with your tail as you go back to evading.  Attempting this will require that you have enough hitpoints to survive, enough aim and damage to quickly kill the enemy, and that the teammate is nice enough (bots are actually better about this than humans, sadly) to come shoot the guy off you.  Either way, if you free that other aircraft up, either by clearing his tail or removing his target, that player or "player bot" will likely look for something else to shoot...which could be the guy chasing you.


 

Taking the "boosts turn rate" consumable item for situations like this may give you enough of an edge that you can get a shot on the guy...or encourage him to give up sooner, if it makes you even harder to hit.


 

3)

This is entirely dependent on situation and playstyle.  There's a thread, here, that gives a spreadsheet of "optimal skill and equipment" for various craft.  However, I would say use this as a baseline and then tweak it based on your personal experiences in different craft to blend with your playstyle.  In that thread I discuss some counter-points to their suggested equipment here and in the posts below that.


 

On some turn planes, I'll add speed boosting equipment to compensate that shortcoming.  On some (P-39-N1, as an example), I'll further boost it's maneuvering (which the chart and pros say not to do).  This enables me to have more control over where my nose is on a target if I want to try for a hit with the big nose gun, as well as getting onto the next target in the furball quicker, at the expense of not having extra speed to chase BnZers (but...I have a big gun with range and damage if they fly straight-ish!).  It really just depends on what my experience is with each craft and what feels comfortable to me.  In 3 dimensions, there's so much going on that there really isn't a right, wrong, or min-max way to do things.  There are just different approaches that will have different results for different players.


 

4)  Supposedly, lowering flaps will reduce speed, in addition to increasing lift (which if increasing lift in a turn, will increase rate of turn).  How the game mechanics currently handle this is debatable.  Both since they just re-introduced the manual flaps control as well as the changes to the flight model.  Personally, I use manual flaps and notice very little extra turn ability.  Back when I played, the effect was much more noticeable. So, I do use them, mainly as "what if" or "just in case" it works, but it almost feels like wasted effort.  Also, I set my flaps keybind to "press" instead of "press and hold" so that in a long turn fight or furball, I don't have to hold the key.


 

I do notice that flaps reduce forward, straight line speed when lowered.  But, seat of pants tells me that they don't do much to increase turning nor do they reduce your speed more than your turning maneuvers do (ie, almost pointless to mess with it at all, but not a detriment to anything if you do).  Again, this is just "seat of the pants", I haven't times myself flying circles...yet.


 

Back in the day, there was an advantage to setting keybinds for actual "throttle" setting (as well as a throttle setting display on the UI).  This DID have an effect and many craft turned better at lower throttle settings, but offered better performance than just hitting S.  These days, as back then, it seems the craft to respond well to changing between brakes and boost.  So, you hit S to slow down and tighten a turn, then tap W to boost and watch your nose (somewhat counter-intuitively) shoot in front of the target as your rate of turn speeds up.  With a well matched enemy, repeat the S and W taps to gain advantage.  Boosting in a turn should open up your turn, causing your nose to fall farther behind your targets tail, but the code doesn't seem to work this way, boosting and braking in a turn seems to speed up your turn.


 

If you are making a U-turn, to try and shoot somebody going fast, try turning before he goes past you (will require some juking, say go left, then turn back to the right and dive a bit -to throw off aim), and start boosting once you get to the halfway point of your turn to start bringing your speed back up.  The combination of boosting at the midpoint of the turn, and turning earlier should get you more time on his tail before he gets out of range, hopefully allowing for an engine crit.


 

Again, I'm no pro, but the theory behind what I'm telling you is reasonable, my ability to always make it work, not so much so.  Hopefully there's something in there that you can use to help you out in the turn-fight game!


 


 


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Colddawg #3 Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:12 PM

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Best thing to do is to learn from the real thing.  I've watched many videos (and participated in a few camps) about dogfighting.  The tricks I've learned from these experiences has benefited me in WOWP/WT and other flight sims.

 

As for Joystick/keyboard-mouse.  A joystick will give you unrestricted control over you aircraft in terms of fluidity, but a mouse will give you tighter controls.  No matter what, make sure you have rudder control (I set my keyboard Q/E as rudder).

 

Some key points: 

-Flaps always increase lift and drop speed so it helps in turns.  Drop speed to increase horizontal turning rate but do not get near stall speed!  If you speed indicator is at the top of the orange section you're at the right speed for maximum turning.

-US aircraft excel in aircraft rolling (aileron maneuvering) but are TERRIBLE at tight horizontal turns.  (So find a wingman to help you out).  Historically 1 US aircraft acts as bait as his wingman waited at a higher elevation to dive on the attacker before his buddy is shot down.

-Historically best to worst tight turn rate:  USSR/UK, Japanese, German, US

-Historically best to worst rolling rate:  US, UK, German, Japanese, USSR

-Attack high to low....always, no exceptions, period, end of argument.

-When in a turn fight, if you need more speed roll downward at 60-70 degrees, apply appropriate rudder, and undercut the enemy aircraft.  Opposite that, if you need to bleed speed, roll upward, apply appropriate rudder, and bring your nose back down on the enemy in front of you.

-NEVER EVER reverse your direction.  It brings you right across the enemy's guns (I am 100% gun down rate when AI/players do this).

-Don't oversteer.

-A barrel roll will only buy you a little time, but seconds can mean the difference.

-Snap rolling is the best way to frustrate someone right on your tail (a USAAF staple maneuver).

 

 


Edited by Colddawg, 15 November 2017 - 02:15 PM.

Keep your head on the swivel.


delp5117 #4 Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:13 PM

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Thanks to both of you for your help (and your time)!  The stuff on the controls makes a lot of sense.  Would never have thought about that without a lot more research!

 

I have brushed up on tactics a bit, but need to do some additional reading.


Edited by delp5117, 15 November 2017 - 02:14 PM.


Helsemaine #5 Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:36 PM

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View PostColddawg, on 15 November 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

-A barrel roll will only buy you a little time, but seconds can mean the difference.

-Snap rolling is the best way to frustrate someone right on your tail (a USAAF staple maneuver).

 

I haven't been able to figure out barrel rolling with a mouse.

 

What is snap rolling?



Heibges #6 Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:33 PM

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Just because the game is in 3rd Person, you might want to try a gamepad.

 

In 3rd person flying games, I find the joystick to be too sensitive.


"If the Healer gets killed it's the Tank's fault.  If the Tank gets killed it's the Healer's fault.  If the DPS get killed it's their own fault." - various
 

trikke #7 Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:16 PM

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jeez, mercsn...  please pm me good info like this AT LEAST 24 hours before you share it with the rest of the world!

 

great post!    i'm out of likes today, but i'll catch you tomorrow 

 

 



HazeGrayUnderway #8 Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:47 PM

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Pogo68 #9 Posted 16 November 2017 - 01:34 AM

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Snap

View PostHelsemaine, on 15 November 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

 

I haven't been able to figure out barrel rolling with a mouse.

 

What is snap rolling?

 

It's 11 min into the 1943 training film.

Snap Roll in a Sim that actually semi simulates actual aircraft behavior and flight model

 

In a real aircraft


Edited by Pogo68, 16 November 2017 - 01:48 AM.

DICTA BOELCKE for WoWP
    1. Try to secure the upper hand before attacking.
    2. Always continue with an attack you have begun
    3. Open fire only at close range, and then only when the opponent is squarely in your sights
    4. You should always try to keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be deceived by ruses
    5. In any type of attack, it is essential to assail your opponent from behind
    6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try run away from his attack, but fly to meet it
    7. When over the enemy's lines, always remember your own line of retreat
    8. It is better to attack in groups of four or six. Avoid two aircraft attacking the same opponent

Mercsn #10 Posted 16 November 2017 - 02:01 PM

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View PostPogo68, on 15 November 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

Snap

 

It's 11 min into the 1943 training film.

Snap Roll in a Sim that actually semi simulates actual aircraft behavior and flight model

 

In a real aircraft

 

This is very difficult to do in wowp, with mouse control and no "stall" mechanics other than altitude band cap and low speed stall types.

 


 

If anyone wants to try this with mouse control, you'll need keybinds set for yaw and pitch up.  And you can "sort of" do this by moving the mouse as described in the first video to simulate the stick movement and then using the yaw keybind to simulate the rudder input described, while using the pitch up to help counter the mouse control tendancy to want to level off (could also adjust the level off setting way down).  However, you have to continuously move the mouse to sort of keep up with where they keybind inputs are moving the nose. Otherwise, it just kinda barrel rolls or recenters itself.  Also, I had to use my pitch-up keybind in addition to using the mouse input as described in the vid, then chase the nose with the mouse.


 

I have not tried it in combat, as getting the maneuver to work requires a bit of keyboard dancing and thought and I'm not sure I could do it well under pressure or that it would translate into a harder to hit target, in this game.  Thanks for the links though. I might mess with it and see if I can turn it into a viable defensive maneuver in this game, with these controls.


Edited by Mercsn, 16 November 2017 - 02:03 PM.

All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.




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