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Bullets have insane muzzle velocity?


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mnbv_fockewulfe #1 Posted 12 November 2017 - 10:30 PM

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So I did an experiment to test out the muzzle velocity of bullets in 2.0.

I was flying in my P-47B armed with the M2 Browning .50 cals.

My target was a human pilot IL-2.

We matched speed at 227km/h

Distance to target=578m

Began firing at frame 2193

bullets hit target at frame 2198

recording at 35fps, game running at 35 fps.


 

therefore:

the time it took the bullets to reach the target=0.5sec

the speed they reached the target= 578/0.5=1556-63.06=1092.94m/s

I doubt the game models it but bullets should have slowed down in the time it took to reach the target so the using this calculator http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

the muzzle velocity is:1093m/s+56m/s=1149m/s


 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning

here it states the real gun had a muzzle velocity of 890 m/s.

In our game the bullets are 259m/s faster or 579mph faster. :sceptic:


 


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SaintCelestine_WH40K #2 Posted 12 November 2017 - 10:42 PM

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It's an arcade game dude.......seriously, what do you expect?

You want realistic bullet/shell speeds then go play War Thunder on Simulator Mode.

mnbv_fockewulfe #3 Posted 12 November 2017 - 10:48 PM

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View PostSaintCelestine_WH40K, on 12 November 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

It's an arcade game dude.......seriously, what do you expect?

You want realistic bullet/shell speeds then go play War Thunder on Simulator Mode.

 

The point I'm trying to make is it's easier to shoot even without the lead indicator.:izmena:

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SaintCelestine_WH40K #4 Posted 12 November 2017 - 10:55 PM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 12 November 2017 - 10:48 PM, said:

 

The point I'm trying to make is it's easier to shoot even without the lead indicator.:izmena:

 

Having played War Thunder Realistic Battles with no indicator, War Thunder Arcade WITH lead indicators, and now WoWP 2.0, I find it easier to aim and hit targets than in WTRB, but a little harder than WTAB.

 

Seriously, if you want a lead indicator that badly because you can't take the time it takes to play 5 games and train your aim to the weapons of your plane..... (i think you know where this is going)

Go play War Thunder Arcade Battles.

For once I'm playing WoWP and it feels like i'm actually flying a plane, instead of chasing a mouse around the screen with a brick for an aircraft.



Soylent_Red_Isnt_People #5 Posted 12 November 2017 - 10:57 PM

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Similar compression of time/distance/velocities as for Warships?

mnbv_fockewulfe #6 Posted 12 November 2017 - 11:03 PM

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View PostSaintCelestine_WH40K, on 12 November 2017 - 10:55 PM, said:

 

Having played War Thunder Realistic Battles with no indicator, War Thunder Arcade WITH lead indicators, and now WoWP 2.0, I find it easier to aim and hit targets than in WTRB, but a little harder than WTAB.

 

Seriously, if you want a lead indicator that badly because you can't take the time it takes to play 5 games and train your aim to the weapons of your plane..... (i think you know where this is going)

Go play War Thunder Arcade Battles.

For once I'm playing WoWP and it feels like i'm actually flying a plane, instead of chasing a mouse around the screen with a brick for an aircraft.

 

He he, you got an upvote.

I don't want the lead indicator that badly. Judging by the number of battles you've played you must know even more than I that its comically easy to lead targets and hit right now. This is in part due to the increased maneuverability of planes and the increased bullet speed to nearly laser speed (slight exaggeration about the laser speed part).


 

I did by the way, play battles in previous iterations with the lead indicator turn off. I wouldn't do this more than occasionally because why deprive myself of an advantage that everyone has?


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scrapking #7 Posted 13 November 2017 - 12:16 AM

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Your math is wrong. It is not as simple as you presented it. The target might be 578m away from when you open fire, but the bullets travel more than 578m because your target has moved some distance away from where it was at the point in space when you opened fire. In that half second, your target has moved ~63m farther away. Assuming your time measurement is right, anyway.

​Granted this only exacerbates the issue you are pointing out, but it leads me to believe that like other games, there is some space compression going on.

mnbv_fockewulfe #8 Posted 13 November 2017 - 12:29 AM

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Read, same velocity, subtracted the velocity of the aircraft from the total velocity of the bullet.

Woops I did mess up.

I was recording the video at 25 fps.

5 frames divided by 25 frames in 1 second is only 0.2 seconds. :P


 

Therefore the muzzle velocity is: 2827m/s


 


 


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Pogo68 #9 Posted 13 November 2017 - 12:34 AM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 12 November 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

 

He he, you got an upvote.

I don't want the lead indicator that badly. Judging by the number of battles you've played you must know even more than I that its comically easy to lead targets and hit right now. This is in part due to the increased maneuverability of planes and the increased bullet speed to nearly laser speed (slight exaggeration about the laser speed part).

 

 

No kidding.

In realistic sim's I sometimes have to aim so far in front that the target plane is below my engine/cockpit bow frame that I can't see it anymore.


DICTA BOELCKE for WoWP
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    2. Always continue with an attack you have begun
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    5. In any type of attack, it is essential to assail your opponent from behind
    6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try run away from his attack, but fly to meet it
    7. When over the enemy's lines, always remember your own line of retreat
    8. It is better to attack in groups of four or six. Avoid two aircraft attacking the same opponent

scrapking #10 Posted 13 November 2017 - 12:43 AM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 13 November 2017 - 12:29 AM, said:

Read, same velocity, subtracted the velocity of the aircraft from the total velocity of the bullet.

Woops I did mess up.

I was recording the video at 25 fps.

5 frames divided by 25 frames in 1 second is only 0.2 seconds. :P


 

Therefore the muzzle velocity is: 2827m/s


 


 



​Yes, subtract the plane velocity from the bullet velocity.

 

But you say your target was 578m away. It wasn't. It moved. Your plane is at coordinate 0,0 (x,y) when you open fire. The enemy plane was at 578,0. When the bullets hit, apparently 0.2 seconds later (which may not be as accurate as you think it is, but ok, for the sake of argument) everything moves to a new position. Your plane, is now at position 0+vt and the enemy plane is now at 578+vt. But the bullets traveled to 578+vt *from* 0. Subtracting the velocity doesn't account for the target moving. But it does account for the added velocity of its initial velocity. You need to do both.

 

You are still leading your target, but its less obvious because its moving in the same direction. This is not that important since its not going to change your actual point, but ... for the sake of accuracy, the math was wrong.

 

But nevermind all that, the real question is why are bullets moving faster than reality. Space compression is the most likely explanation. Mistakenly calculating a passage of time form frames might be another (all frames aren't necessarily equal). Another might be different loads in the AN M2 than the standard M2 (I couldn't find anything other than that the 2 weapons had a different ROF). I'm not even sure if the planes would be moving a realistic distance if you checked that. In the end the right answer to your question is, as someone stated, "its an arcade game." But bothering to try to check was still pretty cool.


Edited by scrapking, 13 November 2017 - 12:49 AM.


mnbv_fockewulfe #11 Posted 13 November 2017 - 01:01 AM

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Relative to me the target didn't move. Give me till tomorrow to draw up a sketch for you. :)


 


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Tablecat #12 Posted 13 November 2017 - 01:29 AM

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I remember reading something like this about world of warships. If real muzzle velocities were simulated, the game would have been unplayable. Though some players lament the lack of plunging fire from lower historical muzzle velocity. But if we're honest, every other stat in the game is likewise ahistorical.

comtedumas #13 Posted 13 November 2017 - 01:46 AM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 12 November 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

So I did an experiment to test out the muzzle velocity of bullets in 2.0.

I was flying in my P-47B armed with the M2 Browning .50 cals.

My target was a human pilot IL-2.

We matched speed at 227km/h

Distance to target=578m

Began firing at frame 2193

bullets hit target at frame 2198

recording at 35fps, game running at 35 fps.


 

therefore:

the time it took the bullets to reach the target=0.5sec

the speed they reached the target= 578/0.5=1556-63.06=1092.94m/s

I doubt the game models it but bullets should have slowed down in the time it took to reach the target so the using this calculator http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

the muzzle velocity is:1093m/s+56m/s=1149m/s


 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning

here it states the real gun had a muzzle velocity of 890 m/s.

In our game the bullets are 259m/s faster or 579mph faster. :sceptic:


 

P47 has US guns, do it in the proper format, feet per second.  


Heard on the forum.  "1.9 was a hardcore air combat sim.  And it had a lead indicator"  HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Destroyer_Suzukaze #14 Posted 13 November 2017 - 01:50 AM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 12 November 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

So I did an experiment to test out the muzzle velocity of bullets in 2.0.

I was flying in my P-47B armed with the M2 Browning .50 cals.

My target was a human pilot IL-2.

We matched speed at 227km/h

Distance to target=578m

Began firing at frame 2193

bullets hit target at frame 2198

recording at 35fps, game running at 35 fps.


 

therefore:

the time it took the bullets to reach the target=0.5sec

the speed they reached the target= 578/0.5=1556-63.06=1092.94m/s

I doubt the game models it but bullets should have slowed down in the time it took to reach the target so the using this calculator http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

the muzzle velocity is:1093m/s+56m/s=1149m/s


 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning

here it states the real gun had a muzzle velocity of 890 m/s.

In our game the bullets are 259m/s faster or 579mph faster. :sceptic:


 

 

The speed of your plane is added into the speed of the bullet, it is not starting at a 0 velocity. So what is your velocity added to the bullet plus the relative velocity of the enemy?

 

 



Thornir #15 Posted 13 November 2017 - 01:51 AM

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View PostTablecat, on 13 November 2017 - 01:29 AM, said:

I remember reading something like this about world of warships. If real muzzle velocities were simulated, the game would have been unplayable. Though some players lament the lack of plunging fire from lower historical muzzle velocity. But if we're honest, every other stat in the game is likewise ahistorical.

 

I was going to say.

 

Climb rate, roll rate, muzzle velocity...there's all manner of things not right. 

 

All in all though, it's pretty fun, and I like the fact the different gun velocities make you find a "sweet spot" in your lead where they all hit.

 

Also, as an obtw, the M2's rounds varied in velocity, depending on the type - AP, incendiary, HE. Same powder load to make the recoil / feed work without jamming, but different bullet weights.



scrapking #16 Posted 13 November 2017 - 02:03 AM

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View Postcomtedumas, on 13 November 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

P47 has US guns, do it in the proper format, feet per second.  

 

Science is done in metric. That is the proper format.

Einssniper #17 Posted 13 November 2017 - 02:17 AM

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If both of you are moving, the shell velocity ought to be even faster, since it needs to travel more distance,assuming

your plane does not give it any momentum.  In that case .50 cal has even faster shell velocity, which is almost 1100m/s, but that's acceptable.

 

Of course with .50 and 20mm you do not feel the lag between you open fire and hit the target, but try more 30mm, you will

have significant discomfort in shooting.


Edited by Einssniper, 13 November 2017 - 02:20 AM.


aradragoon #18 Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:13 AM

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I would just go with time and distance compression honestly. It is the same as world of warships, the maximum firing range of a battleship, like Yamato, isn't 26km and it wouldn't take 14 seconds to reach that distance but it wouldn't be much fun to wait a few minutes for shells to land let alone how hard it would be to hit. 

Also much easier to aim than WT realistic but a bit harder than WT arcade as was stated above. I like the aim mechanics personally but I like the damage model, minus how easily wings get cut off, in WT a bit more.

__ThisMachine__ #19 Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:43 AM

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youre not actually thinking this game now or ever has used actual physics to track each shell, it doesnt, its simply a probability engine based on aim point and TARGET motion, it ignores relative motion completely and always has. before they turned it to garbage they also had the pointless increased hit probability built in based on attacker flight aspect, i have no idea if that has been ported into garbage mode but i assume it has.

scrapking #20 Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:34 AM

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View Postmnbv_fockewulfe, on 13 November 2017 - 01:01 AM, said:

Relative to me the target didn't move. Give me till tomorrow to draw up a sketch for you. :)


 

 

You are conceptualizing it wrong.

​Relative to you, the target did not move, correct.

 

Relative to the point in space where you fired the round from, the target DID move. And so did you. But that is no longer relevant.

 

You are at position 0. Target is at position 100. You fire. You move, the bullet moves, the target moves. Each has a velocity that determines its position, depending on time and velocity. Assume you, target, bullet, all travel at 100m/s. The bullet actually moves at 200m/s (its v, plus your v). After 0.1s the bullet has moved 20m to position 20. The target has moved 10m, to position 110. After 0.5s, the bullet has moved 100m to position 100 (where the target started, but is no longer), the target has moved 50m to position 150. After 1 full second, the bullet has moved 200m to position 200 and the target has moved 100m to position 200, boom. The bullet has traveled 200m, even though YOU are still 100m behind the target.

 

Notice how we stopped caring about your position in all of this. Your position is only relevant in that moment which you fire. That becomes the start point for the bullet. i hope that example clarifies it for you. And again, this has nothing to do with the point you were making, other than that your method was flawed.

 

 






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