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Help Me Understand Multi-roles

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Desmios #1 Posted 11 November 2017 - 12:33 PM

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I feel like they are just crappier fighters with a couple crappy bombs.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Does their gun deal more damage to ground targets?  Anything at all?



Mercsn #2 Posted 11 November 2017 - 01:05 PM

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They are...different fighters.


 

In the game, you have three main catagories of fighters, basically: turn n burn fighters, boom n zoom, and middle-of-the-road, jack-of-all-trades  multi-role fighters. 


 

Turn n Burn have maneuverability as their primary strength.

BnZ have speed, dive speed, acceleration, boost, altitude, climb or some combination as their strength.

The multi-role fighters don't have a specific strength, but are decent in both areas and can actually play as either TnB or BnZ or GA depending on who they are currently fighting and what the match currently needs in order to achieve victory.


 

In short, they probably will take more skill and experience with what targets are capable, in order to know what to play it as (TnB or BnZ) and what enemy targets to prioritize in what situation.   I haven't played in a long time and am just getting reacquainted with the game, so I don't know the intricacies of every multi-role craft, but that's the summary of type.


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

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and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

pyantoryng #3 Posted 11 November 2017 - 01:51 PM

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That's the low tier problem. Their ordnance still look weak.

 

Later on in the US multirole line (both Vought/Corsair and Republic/Thunder series) their ordnance will be formidable, comparable to that of mid-high tier Russian Ilyushin which can considerably speed up capture by destroying high-value hard targets or seriously weakening them for attackers to finish off.

 

In other multirole lines (Russian twin engine jets, Japanese J7Ws) their 250kgs are enough to dent one hard target or destroy with careful aiming. One hard target can be critical in the speedy capture of a sector. These two lines happen to carry some massive weaponry (the J7Ws has 30mm, and the Russians even larger, monstrous caliber guns going all the way up to two 57mms at tier 10), which can be highly effective against enemy planes.

 

The Blohm und Voss multiroles only has their multirole assignment as a permit to mount R4M small anti-air rockets which they can use to deadly effect in a head-on. The same applies to one outlier in the US tree: F-94D Starfire and its FFAR "Mighty Mouse" anti-air rockets.

 

History lesson...

Spoiler

 



WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
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Killerpopcorn #4 Posted 11 November 2017 - 06:36 PM

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Its that tier 6 bridge that has to be crossed, its a whole new game once new players pass that bridge. now I haven't played enough to see if the curve is still there but its always been a issue for new players passing the tier 6-7 hump.

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MARS_REVENANT #5 Posted 11 November 2017 - 07:02 PM

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View PostDesmios, on 11 November 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

I feel like they are just crappier fighters with a couple crappy bombs.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Does their gun deal more damage to ground targets?  Anything at all?

 

Congratulations!  You have made it to the AMA(ASK_MARS_ANYTHING) post. http://forum.worldof...943#entry703943

 

I have taken your questions and come up with a brief video answer for you.  Have a look and tell me what you think.. Did I answer your questions?  Have I improved your gameplay or experience?  Let me know in my AMA thread.

 

Feel free to continue to ASK_MARS_ANYTHING and I will do my best to answer!

 

 


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pyantoryng #6 Posted 11 November 2017 - 07:20 PM

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Actually...there is a certain multirole fighter that cannot mount any ordnance...but its guns are very powerful and under the correct condition can be souped up to do damage no ordnance can imagine to deal...

WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
I am deaf, silent, and fly with unrealistic controls. Do not count on me to carry - my back's already broken from overweight.

Rebeldad #7 Posted 11 November 2017 - 07:28 PM

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Trying to understand multi role fighters myself.

 



Onyx #8 Posted 12 November 2017 - 01:11 AM

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View PostDesmios, on 11 November 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

I feel like they are just crappier fighters with a couple crappy bombs.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Does their gun deal more damage to ground targets?  Anything at all?

 

View PostRebeldad, on 11 November 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

Trying to understand multi role fighters myself.

 

 

 

In my experience, multirole fighters are bad fighters pretending to be heavy fighters that have a paltry bomb load to drop on target (which they can and should drop on targets!).  They give up a lot of power in top speed, optimum speed, and turn rate to gain access to the few bombs they get, so the key is to use those bombs effectively.

 

At lower tiers, they tend to just not be effective enough and often have crippling flaws.  For instance, the XP-44 is basically a bad P-40 in every sense of the word including pushing objectives.  Same firepower, only 2 bombs that barely push objectives and can't turn at all.  A fighter can push objectives faster.

 

This tends to change a bit as you push into tier 6 and especially tier 7 (my current highest tier) where you tend to run into more "specialist" bases.  The big 3 being Plant, Command Center, and Mil Base.  As of the most recent patch (2.01) you can no longer capture any of those with air battles alone.  I consider this to be a design flaw intent on shoehorning in ground attack onto these bases without addressing the problem at hand, but that's neither here nor there.  I digress.

 

At tier 6+, multiroles tend to start gaining more advantages because the bomb loads tend to get bigger, and the planes have more pronounced advantages over standard fighters.  They're faster overall, have more average firepower (especially the 190 line) and the bombloads can kill or severely injure 1-3 ground targets, helping to bump them up into a state of mild relevance overall.

 

They have the major advantage of being able to hard counter heavy fighters short of exceptional ones like the XP-75 or XF5U (they turn with most multiroles) but are, in turn, hard countered by all but the slowest of light fighters.  Basically anything that's not slower than a Spitfire.  And this is their major flaw.  Whereas a light fighter is the king of defense, offense, and in general being ridiculously good at playing the objective (on the actual turners), multiroles tend to have to constantly jump into and out of conflict and can't really dust up with a proper fighter.

 

The Corsair line is a noteworthy exception at least up to tier 8.  They have enough turn time and firepower to really mess with light fighters provided you don't commit to a turnfight against anything that can win against you in hilariously short order, allowing it to break and re-engage swiftly to good results or turn enough to cripple a plane in a single pass while turning with it, then break, re-engage, etc.

 

The net result is that multirole fighters tend to feel very blah compared to more dedicated specimens in either direction.  You often won't carry a game on one and will often find yourself in unwinnable situations, but you can still cause a lot of damage as long as you remember that you have bombs/rockets and are generally fast enough to run out of a cap circle before dying.  You give up a lot of power for bombs and rockets, so effective use of those items is pivotal to playing multiroles.

 

Learn how many rockets or bombs it takes to kill certain targets so you can one-pass them, expend all ordnance efficiently, and then turn into a fighter.  Those bombs and rockets can make a difference, albeit rarely.  Just remember that you can't go toe to toe with light fighters as a multirole most of the time, so don't bother trying.

 

After you expend bombs/rockets, disengage, let your team's lights engage, then re-engage and slash through the furball at higher speeds (poking the outside is safer), only turning if there's singular targets or it's otherwise safe to do so.  If you see any heavies, target them with more priority as it's easier overall to.go after heavies than lights as a multirole, esp. since you can boost for substantial amounts of time compared to many lights.

 

And in general wish you weer in a light fighter while reloading bombs, because you'll still largely be a bad light overall.



Destroyer_Suzukaze #9 Posted 12 November 2017 - 03:10 AM

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View PostOnyx, on 11 November 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

 

 

 

In my experience, multirole fighters are bad fighters pretending to be heavy fighters that have a paltry bomb load to drop on target (which they can and should drop on targets!).  They give up a lot of power in top speed, optimum speed, and turn rate to gain access to the few bombs they get, so the key is to use those bombs effectively.

 

At lower tiers, they tend to just not be effective enough and often have crippling flaws.  For instance, the XP-44 is basically a bad P-40 in every sense of the word including pushing objectives.  Same firepower, only 2 bombs that barely push objectives and can't turn at all.  A fighter can push objectives faster.

 

This tends to change a bit as you push into tier 6 and especially tier 7 (my current highest tier) where you tend to run into more "specialist" bases.  The big 3 being Plant, Command Center, and Mil Base.  As of the most recent patch (2.01) you can no longer capture any of those with air battles alone.  I consider this to be a design flaw intent on shoehorning in ground attack onto these bases without addressing the problem at hand, but that's neither here nor there.  I digress.

 

At tier 6+, multiroles tend to start gaining more advantages because the bomb loads tend to get bigger, and the planes have more pronounced advantages over standard fighters.  They're faster overall, have more average firepower (especially the 190 line) and the bombloads can kill or severely injure 1-3 ground targets, helping to bump them up into a state of mild relevance overall.

 

They have the major advantage of being able to hard counter heavy fighters short of exceptional ones like the XP-75 or XF5U (they turn with most multiroles) but are, in turn, hard countered by all but the slowest of light fighters.  Basically anything that's not slower than a Spitfire.  And this is their major flaw.  Whereas a light fighter is the king of defense, offense, and in general being ridiculously good at playing the objective (on the actual turners), multiroles tend to have to constantly jump into and out of conflict and can't really dust up with a proper fighter.

 

The Corsair line is a noteworthy exception at least up to tier 8.  They have enough turn time and firepower to really mess with light fighters provided you don't commit to a turnfight against anything that can win against you in hilariously short order, allowing it to break and re-engage swiftly to good results or turn enough to cripple a plane in a single pass while turning with it, then break, re-engage, etc.

 

The net result is that multirole fighters tend to feel very blah compared to more dedicated specimens in either direction.  You often won't carry a game on one and will often find yourself in unwinnable situations, but you can still cause a lot of damage as long as you remember that you have bombs/rockets and are generally fast enough to run out of a cap circle before dying.  You give up a lot of power for bombs and rockets, so effective use of those items is pivotal to playing multiroles.

 

Learn how many rockets or bombs it takes to kill certain targets so you can one-pass them, expend all ordnance efficiently, and then turn into a fighter.  Those bombs and rockets can make a difference, albeit rarely.  Just remember that you can't go toe to toe with light fighters as a multirole most of the time, so don't bother trying.

 

After you expend bombs/rockets, disengage, let your team's lights engage, then re-engage and slash through the furball at higher speeds (poking the outside is safer), only turning if there's singular targets or it's otherwise safe to do so.  If you see any heavies, target them with more priority as it's easier overall to.go after heavies than lights as a multirole, esp. since you can boost for substantial amounts of time compared to many lights.

 

And in general wish you weer in a light fighter while reloading bombs, because you'll still largely be a bad light overall.

 

I don't know how many times I drove my GAA over to an area that was perpetually partially capped, destroyed one ground target, and finished the cap because the lights carried no bombs. Right tool for the right job

 



comtedumas #10 Posted 12 November 2017 - 09:20 AM

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View PostOnyx, on 11 November 2017 - 08:11 PM, said:

 

 

 

In my experience, multirole fighters are bad fighters pretending to be heavy fighters that have a paltry bomb load to drop on target (which they can and should drop on targets!).  They give up a lot of power in top speed, optimum speed, and turn rate to gain access to the few bombs they get, so the key is to use those bombs effectively.

 

At lower tiers, they tend to just not be effective enough and often have crippling flaws.  For instance, the XP-44 is basically a bad P-40 in every sense of the word including pushing objectives.  Same firepower, only 2 bombs that barely push objectives and can't turn at all.  A fighter can push objectives faster.

 

This tends to change a bit as you push into tier 6 and especially tier 7 (my current highest tier) where you tend to run into more "specialist" bases.  The big 3 being Plant, Command Center, and Mil Base.  As of the most recent patch (2.01) you can no longer capture any of those with air battles alone.  I consider this to be a design flaw intent on shoehorning in ground attack onto these bases without addressing the problem at hand, but that's neither here nor there.  I digress.

 

At tier 6+, multiroles tend to start gaining more advantages because the bomb loads tend to get bigger, and the planes have more pronounced advantages over standard fighters.  They're faster overall, have more average firepower (especially the 190 line) and the bombloads can kill or severely injure 1-3 ground targets, helping to bump them up into a state of mild relevance overall.

 

They have the major advantage of being able to hard counter heavy fighters short of exceptional ones like the XP-75 or XF5U (they turn with most multiroles) but are, in turn, hard countered by all but the slowest of light fighters.  Basically anything that's not slower than a Spitfire.  And this is their major flaw.  Whereas a light fighter is the king of defense, offense, and in general being ridiculously good at playing the objective (on the actual turners), multiroles tend to have to constantly jump into and out of conflict and can't really dust up with a proper fighter.

 

The Corsair line is a noteworthy exception at least up to tier 8.  They have enough turn time and firepower to really mess with light fighters provided you don't commit to a turnfight against anything that can win against you in hilariously short order, allowing it to break and re-engage swiftly to good results or turn enough to cripple a plane in a single pass while turning with it, then break, re-engage, etc.

 

The net result is that multirole fighters tend to feel very blah compared to more dedicated specimens in either direction.  You often won't carry a game on one and will often find yourself in unwinnable situations, but you can still cause a lot of damage as long as you remember that you have bombs/rockets and are generally fast enough to run out of a cap circle before dying.  You give up a lot of power for bombs and rockets, so effective use of those items is pivotal to playing multiroles.

 

Learn how many rockets or bombs it takes to kill certain targets so you can one-pass them, expend all ordnance efficiently, and then turn into a fighter.  Those bombs and rockets can make a difference, albeit rarely.  Just remember that you can't go toe to toe with light fighters as a multirole most of the time, so don't bother trying.

 

After you expend bombs/rockets, disengage, let your team's lights engage, then re-engage and slash through the furball at higher speeds (poking the outside is safer), only turning if there's singular targets or it's otherwise safe to do so.  If you see any heavies, target them with more priority as it's easier overall to.go after heavies than lights as a multirole, esp. since you can boost for substantial amounts of time compared to many lights.

 

And in general wish you weer in a light fighter while reloading bombs, because you'll still largely be a bad light overall.

XP44 is a beast for its tier, those bombs it carries will kill a whole ground square if you place them right, and it has power to get up and kill bombers, it’s fast, it will kill AA gun barrels faster than anything else on its tier to clear the way for ground attack aircraft.   It’s an excellent aircraft and a keeper, it also leads to the P47 line and that’s a real beast in the air.  You are missing out if you are dissing multirole fighters.  


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StoptheViolins #11 Posted 12 November 2017 - 02:05 PM

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View Postpyantoryng, on 11 November 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

Actually...there is a certain multirole fighter that cannot mount any ordnance...but its guns are very powerful and under the correct condition can be souped up to do damage no ordnance can imagine to deal...

Yak-9/U? Or higher tier?  I know the Hurricane IID is a hoot with those 40mm mini Ju87 guns.  



Anubis_TD #12 Posted 12 November 2017 - 04:18 PM

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From my limited experience (highest T8, highest MR being T7, I find the class sub-par and hilariously populated.

 

FW190D, J4M (HF for AirDef?), J7W set; I mean what the hell. These are all high altitude fighters. Not MP's.

 

Besides being sub par fighters, intentionally nerfed FW A-series for example, sub par bomb loads (at least to t6); you then handicap their Xp grind. 

They can't dogfight to save caps, bomb loads make it tough to get points there, leaving you just Ai Air Def bots to score points to XP.  

These are easily my lowest Xp planes. 

 

Also, people mention T7  and up they get better bomb loads. However, T7 and up, you force High alt planes out of their element to drop bomb to secure XP.

 

Honestly, the class need to go, have just fighters; leave ground attack to HF, bombers and attackers


Edited by Anubis_TD, 12 November 2017 - 04:22 PM.


MARS_REVENANT #13 Posted 12 November 2017 - 04:47 PM

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Try watching these...

 

http://forum.worldof...709#entry700709


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Anubis_TD #14 Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:58 PM

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ok suffered through to the Fw190 D, the performance on this plane is a sad embarrassment.

1500  for altitude warning, WTH, it is a high alt fighter. 

where is the nose cannon?

 

So you want me to take a plane, that doesn't turn or hold energy well through any turn, (like turn up), down to the deck to bomb. 

Do turn fighters need more free candy. 

 

This class is so poorly thought out. I keep pushing up the line because the FW is a great plane but this game treats it so poorly by forcing it to a Multi role. 

The J7W falls into the same boat i'm sure. Forcing high alt fighter to the deck to bomb. 

 

I enjoy this game but this kinda crap is beyond comprehension.

 

And Mars, there is no Multi vid to look at. Just a bomber and heavy. 

 

I have 50K combine games in WT, WoT, and WoWS, at or near unicum level in all 3 games; which  means i probably understand these types of games and how to use things to their potential.

Multirole label with its silly limitations and poor mastery system needlessly hinders those planes that already have a difficult time in the game's current meta

 



The_World_Needs_A_Hero #15 Posted 15 November 2017 - 12:24 AM

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View PostAnubis_TD, on 14 November 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:

ok suffered through to the Fw190 D, the performance on this plane is a sad embarrassment.

1500  for altitude warning, WTH, it is a high alt fighter. 

where is the nose cannon?

 

So you want me to take a plane, that doesn't turn or hold energy well through any turn, (like turn up), down to the deck to bomb. 

Do turn fighters need more free candy. 

 

This class is so poorly thought out. I keep pushing up the line because the FW is a great plane but this game treats it so poorly by forcing it to a Multi role. 

The J7W falls into the same boat i'm sure. Forcing high alt fighter to the deck to bomb. 

 

I enjoy this game but this kinda crap is beyond comprehension.

 

And Mars, there is no Multi vid to look at. Just a bomber and heavy. 

 

I have 50K combine games in WT, WoT, and WoWS, at or near unicum level in all 3 games; which  means i probably understand these types of games and how to use things to their potential.

Multirole label with its silly limitations and poor mastery system needlessly hinders those planes that already have a difficult time in the game's current meta

 

 

You have to understand that these lines were designed and balanced for a pure team deathmatch type game mode and not for what we currently have now. Other than the overhaul of the flight model, I haven't seen much in terms of rebalancing of individual planes or classes. Sure, they added rockets and bombs to some planes that previously didn't have them. But, plane stats appear to have been largely unchanged. That has resulted in some planes being weak and others OP in the current game. MR's suffer the most, it seems, although some are still quite strong. 

pyantoryng #16 Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:57 AM

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View PostAnubis_TD, on 14 November 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:

ok suffered through to the Fw190 D, the performance on this plane is a sad embarrassment.

1500  for altitude warning, WTH, it is a high alt fighter. 

where is the nose cannon?

 

So you want me to take a plane, that doesn't turn or hold energy well through any turn, (like turn up), down to the deck to bomb. 

Do turn fighters need more free candy. 

 

This class is so poorly thought out. I keep pushing up the line because the FW is a great plane but this game treats it so poorly by forcing it to a Multi role. 

The J7W falls into the same boat i'm sure. Forcing high alt fighter to the deck to bomb. 

 

I enjoy this game but this kinda crap is beyond comprehension.

 

And Mars, there is no Multi vid to look at. Just a bomber and heavy. 

 

I have 50K combine games in WT, WoT, and WoWS, at or near unicum level in all 3 games; which  means i probably understand these types of games and how to use things to their potential.

Multirole label with its silly limitations and poor mastery system needlessly hinders those planes that already have a difficult time in the game's current meta

 

 

The J7W of WoWP was never a high alt plane to begin with. Been that way for four years now...actually, more like four years and a few months because altitude band was introduced in OBT and everyone were up in arms against it, though it was futile with the usual WG/Persha stubbornness.

 

What happened to Corsairs, P-47, and Fw 190 is specific to 2.0 though, and it's probably to "break" players into the new game, as the ordnance these planes carry can make the difference between victory or defeat but players would always be so focused on fighting planes that those ordnance might as well not be mounted...it's still an insult to intelligence, in any case.


Edited by pyantoryng, 15 November 2017 - 02:57 AM.


WoWP makes a great jousting game...especially with the 262 and people busy in furballs...
I am deaf, silent, and fly with unrealistic controls. Do not count on me to carry - my back's already broken from overweight.

Anubis_TD #17 Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:00 AM

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Whether it is in WoWP or not isn't the point. It is the epitome of High alt fighter.  good alt performance, amazing dive speed and heavy fire power.

 

Weak turner and poor acceleration.  Ya sounds fabulous let's force it near the ground to earn xp.   

 

this is a bad design plain and simple. Just because they have always been like this doesn't make it right. 

 

I understand the need to handcuff BnZ's a bit, just play high props in WT and you know why.  However, you still need to allow them to atleast play somewhat to their strengths.

 

right now Turn and burns are so dominant. Spitfires seem unstoppable and the only reason zeros are weakish is they are soooooo slow. 



vonluckner #18 Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:16 AM

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Multirole are just bad fighters, but they're important bad fighters. Without multiroles, LFs can't cap enemy-held Command Centers and Military Districts without enemy players present. Arguably the most important cap points.

 

They are overplayed and most often played badly. You need to have good map awareness. Think of them more like 2nd-line or reinforcement fighters. When an attack has run out of AI to farm and is sitting at 50-75%, that is where a Multirole is needed. If you can't break the tunnel vision on playing them like a fighter (which is how most people play them), then you really might as well play a LF.



Unraveler #19 Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:24 AM

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I've found Multiroles to be pretty good, generally. Thunderbolt line, for example, features very long boost, high hitpoints, and impressive firepower which makes them great at hunting Heavy Fighters and Ground Attack planes (mount Concealing Livery and laugh at rear gunners). And that's not even considering the large ordnance loadout which can be crucial in securing caps.

 

They are versatile planes (hence the name). Against Light Fighters, you adopt the role of a Heavy Fighter. Against Heavy Fighters, you adopt the role of a Light Fighter. When a friendly GA is struggling with a cap, you can help bring it over the line.

 

However, they are not "the best" at any one thing so you have to be careful of your engagements. Overall, I'm having a lot of fun with the P-47s and Fw 190s (I didn't have a good time with the Yak-7, though).

 



HazeGrayUnderway #20 Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:39 AM

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Simply terrible planes.

 

There are many, many planes faster than you.

 

There are many, many planes that will out turn you.

 

There are many, many planes that will out Boom & Zoom your Boom & Zoom.  You think you are getting a good B&Z run in, but watch as a turn and burn airplane quickly do a loop and engine boost to catch up to you and stay on your tail.

 

There are many, many planes that will out climb, out dive you.

 

There are many, many planes that will overtake you on a level egress.

 

There are many, many planes that will out Engine Boost you.

 

And you get half-a$$ed ordnance to help out.

 

If you want to go air-to-air, get a Fighter.

 

If you want a fast flying airplane with power in the engines and can still carry decent ordnance, get a Heavy Fighter.  At least you can outrun a Spitfire.

 

If you want to also have the capability to intercept those high altitude bombers, get the appropriate high altitude performer, which easy encompasses but not exclusive to Heavy Fighters.  Multiroles don't have the balls in their engines to do the job.

 

Multiroles are nothing but a terrible set of compromises that cannot do anything particularly well.  They can't dogfight.  They sputter when trying to intercept high altitude bombers.  They have light ordnance.  They can't run away from anyone.


Edited by HazeGrayUnderway, 15 November 2017 - 08:49 AM.






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