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The WG, WoWP Pendulum


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Mercsn #1 Posted 09 November 2017 - 09:37 AM

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I've been reading some of the comments and just read through "A final Plea" in the 2.0 archives section.  I threw my hands up and left years ago (3 or 4, lost count, shortly after "launch" of a product that was not ready for release -although it had been almost ready at 0.8, before major changes were made to flight, shooting and altitude mechanics).  So, I understand player frustration at a new FM and the UI as well as controls and UI customizations are missing quite a few options.  However, if you guys made it through the garbage that was the game just prior to launch or just after, I'm surprised people are jumping ship now.

 

 

 

 

 


 

Basically, the game is fun to play now.  And, no I wasn't a "bad" before.  I had 58% or so w/r over 2k battles in beta and about 60% for the 500ish I lasted in release.  So, I didn't need the game, FM, controls, or UI simplified or dumbed down for me.  For full disclosure, I knew who to group with and keep alive, so that did help some. But I was still better definitely better than 50% solo and wrote numerous guides and commentaries on shortcomings in WG's development design through the period I played.


 

With all that said, now, as then, WG is acting as a pendulum.  Instead of iterating changes slightly, they take a jackhammer to the design and balance when tapping it lightly with a mallet would have yielded better results.  WG does not know the meaning of "fine-tuning"...or maybe not even the meaning of "tuning'.  Perhaps my title analogy is incorrect.  I mean, even a pendulum will swing through its arc, not just start at one end and then pop to the other.


 

I think the game is actually fun now, as far as the flying and shooting go.


 

Bots are a terrible idea, neutral, team, enemy, office vaccum, ANY bots are a bad idea.  Mos Eisley had it right on that:  no droids!


 

The new game mode is interesting. So many other pvp type games have node capture modes, it makes sense.  However, the way it's implemented in the match is rather confusing.  Further, the bots aren't programmed with how to actually win a match. So, any new players or players that don't figure it out quickly who follow the bots will learn bad map strategy.


 

While I'm enjoying the current iteration (and hoping the bots go away), it is lacking sorely in both controls and UI customization.  And, I wish WG had not swung the pendulum from one side to the other (as they did in the patch just before release that added altitude, dispersion, and other game breaking dynamics).


 

Hopefully they'll learn to work in more slight iterations to tune and then fine tune the thing.  But...it took them 4 years to get here. So, I'm doubtful. 
 

I'd ask the 1.x players to take a breath and give it an honest try.  But, I also understand if your frustration leads you to throw in the towel altogether as mine did so long ago.

I'd ask WG to quit swinging the pendulum to the stops.  There's a middle ground.


 

Thanks for reading and considering a second try...or not-forever break,


 

Mercsn:  former Beta Tester, former Community Ace, former decent player, former guide writer and noobie question answerer, former WoWP towel thrower-inner.


Edited by Mercsn, 09 November 2017 - 09:39 AM.

All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

jack_wdw #2 Posted 09 November 2017 - 10:01 AM

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Please stop this polarizing talk.

You call the previous mod garbage, others think of the current mod as garbage.
I said this before in an other thread:

Both games are/were not perfect, but both games were completely different (fun for one, stupid for another).
I'll leave flight models, controls and ui out of this discussion.
 

But essentially pre2.0 was actually pure dogfights, conquest in 2.0 is more focussed on destroying ground targets, capping areas.
I can get it that you like this 2.0, if  you played a lot GAA's.
Personally, I've never owned a GAA prior to 2.0 and I was never really interested in taking out static ground targets. GAA's could have been left out in 1.9.
But please stop comparing these two games, besides the fact that they share the same title and the hangar has the same planes, they don't have a lot in common.


I gave 2.0 a couple of shots allready. Was defo not pleased with controls , please bring gamepad controls back.
Waited for 2.01 patch, tried again a couple of times. No improvements there for me, so will wait till next patch, but i'm starting to throw the towel.
I got hooked to v1.9 in less than a week. 2.0 i don't know, I just can't seem to enjoy it. In my own experience this is the worst birthdaypresent, i've ever got.

 

Edited by jack_wdw, 09 November 2017 - 10:39 AM.


Psicko23 #3 Posted 09 November 2017 - 10:18 AM

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 You definitely are correct in that Persha does drastic changes and they do it with reckless abandon and don't listen to any advice given. I started playing a little after release. From what others said it wasn't quite ready for release. I still had lots of fun of 15vs15 all humans. 1.5 had a bunch of really big changes that weren't needed as did 1.6 with the skill based mm in a game that a bunch of people jumped ship with the 1.5 fiasco. Their choices snowballed and led to 1.9 with bots. I agree a change was needed, it wasn't even a pendulum swinging, because a pendulum has a continuous arc with a known path. It was more drastic like a toddler taking out a sand castle. Had they done some changes like adding in a zone capture into the rotation and maybe a bomber escort/ bomber attack to the mix with the 1.x version like how ships had a few different modes like regular capture the flag style, multiple center flag capture, etc. That would probably have faired better than a whole redesign like they did.

    I have tried to like 2.0. I just can't seem to enjoy it. Pilot skill doesn't seem to matter as much, most planes seem to fly more or less the same, the respawn is meh. It just went too dumbed down. Ill keep poking my head in to see what changes are done, but for now I'm probably going to take a break like I always do when I'm not having fun with this game. 



CamoCladWarrior #4 Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:27 AM

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View Postjack_wdw, on 09 November 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

Please stop this polarizing talk.

You call the previous mod garbage, others think of the current mod as garbage.
I said this before in an other thread:

Both games are/were not perfect, but both games were completely different (fun for one, stupid for another).
I'll leave flight models, controls and ui out of this discussion.
 

But essentially pre2.0 was actually pure dogfights, conquest in 2.0 is more focussed on destroying ground targets, capping areas.
I can get it that you like this 2.0, if  you played a lot GAA's.
Personally, I've never owned a GAA prior to 2.0 and I was never really interested in taking out static ground targets. GAA's could have been left out in 1.9.
But please stop comparing these two games, besides the fact that they share the same title and the hangar has the same planes, they don't have a lot in common.


I gave 2.0 a couple of shots allready. Was defo not pleased with controls , please bring gamepad controls back.
Waited for 2.01 patch, tried again a couple of times. No improvements there for me, so will wait till next patch, but i'm starting to throw the towel.
I got hooked to v1.9 in less than a week. 2.0 i don't know, I just can't seem to enjoy it. In my own experience this is the worst birthdaypresent, i've ever got.

 

 

View PostPsicko23, on 09 November 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

 You definitely are correct in that Persha does drastic changes and they do it with reckless abandon and don't listen to any advice given. I started playing a little after release. From what others said it wasn't quite ready for release. I still had lots of fun of 15vs15 all humans. 1.5 had a bunch of really big changes that weren't needed as did 1.6 with the skill based mm in a game that a bunch of people jumped ship with the 1.5 fiasco. Their choices snowballed and led to 1.9 with bots. I agree a change was needed, it wasn't even a pendulum swinging, because a pendulum has a continuous arc with a known path. It was more drastic like a toddler taking out a sand castle. Had they done some changes like adding in a zone capture into the rotation and maybe a bomber escort/ bomber attack to the mix with the 1.x version like how ships had a few different modes like regular capture the flag style, multiple center flag capture, etc. That would probably have faired better than a whole redesign like they did.

    I have tried to like 2.0. I just can't seem to enjoy it. Pilot skill doesn't seem to matter as much, most planes seem to fly more or less the same, the respawn is meh. It just went too dumbed down. Ill keep poking my head in to see what changes are done, but for now I'm probably going to take a break like I always do when I'm not having fun with this game.

 

I am with you guys, I have been checking in every now and then.  I can't get past one or two games without hating on the new game or missing the old one.  Sadly I have all but lost hope they are going to do anything to correct it...

Lt_Haruhi_Suzumiya #5 Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:28 AM

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Well, For me,  Current 2.0 version's experience are just somewhat kinda of cluster[edited].

They ruined FM, Characteristic of planes,  these bloody respawn.. (I usually didn't needed it, while bots keep spawns and coming back more than three times.)

For now, Warplane 2.0 is one of worst gaming experience in my life.  Even these Diablo III(Error 34) or The Division(Delta Error) wasn't this bad for me..

For money I already spent, I am really really trying to get used to 2.0

Not funny at all,  painful as hell. (Same as grinding Churchill VII without APCR, facing IS-3 or Obj 252)

 

But.. well... We also have players who loves new 2.0, but don't like  1.9.  Even we had players whom hates 1.9 cries bout 1.4 and Three-manned-goddamn-flight which is unbeatable.

 

Anyway, I am trying to respect every one of players, this is somewhat kind of disparity of tastes.

Someone hate sims, another one hates arcade...   so.. if I hate current 2.0.  at the same time, newcomers and returners loves 2.0.

 

Now... I am just waiting further updates..  which will reduce my pain.


I guess, This pilot is worst teammate when you are on match, *Facepalm

 

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Mercsn #6 Posted 09 November 2017 - 02:29 PM

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View Postjack_wdw, on 09 November 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

Please stop this polarizing talk.

You call the previous mod garbage, others think of the current mod as garbage.
I said this before in an other thread:

Both games are/were not perfect, but both games were completely different (fun for one, stupid for another).
I'll leave flight models, controls and ui out of this discussion.
 

But essentially pre2.0 was actually pure dogfights, conquest in 2.0 is more focussed on destroying ground targets, capping areas.
I can get it that you like this 2.0, if  you played a lot GAA's.
Personally, I've never owned a GAA prior to 2.0 and I was never really interested in taking out static ground targets. GAA's could have been left out in 1.9.
But please stop comparing these two games, besides the fact that they share the same title and the hangar has the same planes, they don't have a lot in common.


I gave 2.0 a couple of shots allready. Was defo not pleased with controls , please bring gamepad controls back.
Waited for 2.01 patch, tried again a couple of times. No improvements there for me, so will wait till next patch, but i'm starting to throw the towel.
I got hooked to v1.9 in less than a week. 2.0 i don't know, I just can't seem to enjoy it. In my own experience this is the worst birthdaypresent, i've ever got.

 

 

Hi.  My post was not meant to be polarizing. I called a version of the game "garbage" that you probably didn't play, it was that long ago.  I'm not saying "hey, this 2.0 is great! You're wrong!"  Quite the opposite.  I'm saying 2.0 feels fun like it did before I threw in the towel.  BUT, that in 4 years, WG should have been able to get here in iterations that might bring back prior players who liked turn fights (aka dogfights) as well as retain players that liked whatever aspect of each patch (in this case 1.9).


 

I'm a bit confused though when you say the game isn't about dogfights now.  It's nothing but dogfighting in a furball when you get into a zone.  If anything I feel that the zones do limit the tactical value of a BnZ craft that will have to zoom out of the zone to get enough distance to make their turn for their next pass.  Then again, in the current mode, those BnZ, typically with heavier firepower, are needed to quickly take the zones with heavy fighter defense as well as knock out the enemy bomber formations quickly.


 

Also, the conquest game isn't just about ground targets (although the argument was made that Supremacy was all about ground targets when somebody lost a game because one plane was left hiding and the GA had done enough damage that the losing team with more players, but no living GA, could overcome).  It is about prioritizing when and where to attack with what types of aircraft.  And when to defend.  And which aircraft to take out first. I think it would be a great mode, if it was 100% humans.  The bots just aren't programmed with how to win or how to prioritize targets in this mode.  Shoot the GA and the game is quickly about killing planes to earn capture points.  With human players, GA will attack other GA, well, smart ones anyways.  The bots...don't.  They also don't play defense well.  So, if you're a human, who wants to win, then this mode is definitely going to be frustrating if you're used to having a larger effect on the battle.


 

I agree it does no good to bring some prior players back or possibly bring in new ones if they are just chasing off people who have been regularly playing up to that point.  That's why I say WG needs to cut the development model of swing the pendulum to the other side and stick it there, forgetting about that arc in the middle.


 

I wish you had been around back when.  WG had a great game back before release that you would have enjoyed.  And lots of us were tossing out suggestions on how to help ease newer players into both the flying and strategy of the game, none of which included dumbing it down or automating it (both of which WG likes).  It's a shame it's taken WG another 4 year "beta" essentially to get the game where it is now...but have scrapped all their prior work that had value.   And kept features, bots, that most players probably revile in a PvP game.


 

I'll post this that I replied to a PM of someone I remember flying with and interacting with in threads about the development of the game back then:


 

"Hi, thanks for the feedback.  I'm guessing that thread will draw some hate from people that were liking what was before.

 

 

 


 

But, really, to me the game feels like it did back in beta.  One guy talking about how it's not about dogfights anymore blows my mind.  ALL it is now is dogfights.  Once you get into a zone it's a big furball that probably wasn't seen since they put in the altitude caps and made energy fighting (instead of turn fighting) the way to play to win.


 

Honestly, I'm glad that some of you kept playing so they had some "test group" to sort the game out.  We all told them it wasn't ready to leave Beta.


 

But, I'm glad I missed the pain of watching them flounder around for 4 years when they basically had a good version in 0.8!  The deeper flight model, customizable controls, several control schemes including 2 mouse types, complete and customizable UI, noticeable differences in aircraft lines, no (or minor) aim assist, it was all there.  There was even a very helpful group in the community willing to help newer players and offer great feedback to the developers on what the game needed to succeed (none of which was heeded at the time).


 

Hopefully they'll get it back to a state where you can enjoy it.  Without taking them another 4 years!  And without jumping back to the other extreme, like WG likes to do!"


 

Believe me, 1.x players, I know exactly what it's like to have a game you enjoyed pulled out from under you by these devs.  Which is why I used the pendulum analogy, and then say even that isn't correct, because the pendulum has a middle ground, not just the two extremes.  If you're obsessed with winning, this conquest mode is going to stink.  The devs simply didn't program the bots with how to win a match.  If the bots were removed and players had to fight players for the zone, instead of fight with bots and against bots, I think this would be a good game mode.  If they put back in some of the things they took out for no reason regarding controls, that would be a step in swinging the pendulum back the other way a bit.   They really need to have a team devoted to NA players concerns and make a solid NA game.  The RU players are all idiots as far as I can tell and that's the only feedback the devs pay attention to.


 

So, while I'm enjoying 2.0 the week or so I've been with it, I agree that Kiev seriously needs somebody dedicated to nixing bad ideas before they grow into game breaking bad ideas that get implemented.  But, again, I think if the devs could learn to iterate in increments instead of swing all the way over, they could design a game that suits a wider audience without being "dumbed down" or "over simplified".  I mean, it is flying afterall...it's a dangerous job even in peacetime.  There's plenty first person shooters out there and they don't need to take away the flavor of the pieces of this game (airplanes) to have a successful game.


 


 

Eh, I type too much.  But I'm frustrated both that I see a decently fun game and that WG has managed to frustrate, anger, or chase off another bunch of players in the process.  And...I think the new game would be much more appealing without the bots that don't know how to play.


Edited by Mercsn, 09 November 2017 - 02:31 PM.

All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

DeltaEon #7 Posted 09 November 2017 - 02:52 PM

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Unfortunately, I lived through the train wreck leading up to and through release. It was then that I left as I got tired of all the stupid changes that made the game fully uninteresting. Other big names like AdmiralKird, Shwedor, CrayolaCrayon, Phrap, Bandet, rev0lution all moved on for similar reasons. (sorry if any of you that I named are still around)

 

Yeah, 2.0 is sort of fun in the fact that you can just fly around and shoot stuff mostly mindlessly and hope to win. The bots keep going full on stupid and I can't do anything about them so it's a loss more often than not even when I concentrate on objectives. I'm at the point that I'll only play WoWp if I feel bored enough of everything else.


"The thing about perfection is that it's unknowable. It's impossible, but it's also right in front of us all the time."
- Kevin Flynn


MelBrooks #8 Posted 09 November 2017 - 03:13 PM

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Mercsn,

 

I'm glad the changes reinvigorated individuals to play some more. This game truly needs solid experience and knowledge that spans the entire WoWP saga. I use saga instead of some other words to avoid administrators becoming disgruntled with me again:hiding:​. There a lot of new faces and many old showing up again, and that is a good thing for the game. I did 2.0 in open testing saw so many things that were a problem for me, and add to the fact that after testing none of the player ideas and modifications were given any credence, I am going to sit back and watch for now on how the new game direction evolves. The radical change in plane flight mechanics and physics did it in for me. I truly enjoyed the uniqueness of many aircraft in speed, handling, and altitude and the many different strategies you had to do with each one in order to win a battle. Bots have never been a good idea, not since the day they were introduced. Their AI and RNG are still a mess. Understand that many of us are not critical of the players, new and old, who enjoy the new direction of the game. In fact, I will support them and hope their numbers continue to grow. This is the only way the game can continue to develop and expand, and possibly bring it back to a balance with new expanding game modes and end game content that then I will play again. <o



jack_wdw #9 Posted 09 November 2017 - 04:19 PM

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Mercsn,

I'm not going to quote the entire post.
Maybe i've expressed myself wrong, i'm not a native english speaker (english is only my 3rd language).
What i meant with pure dogfighting was:

Wait somewhere between 0 and 2 minutes to enter a battle.
Get yourself in a plane that surely was arcade, but controls and flightmodel made it feel like flying.
That feeling of flying is gone for me now, with introduction of the new models and controls.
There was situational awareness.
You coud TnB or BnZ, whatever your plane was best used for, the battle was won if all opponents were killed.
There were less rules for the battle as now, if you got killed, you got into another plane and started a new battle...
Off course new battle modes were welcome, but deathmatch mode should have been retained and UI, flight model and controls should never have been changed to what they are now.
I didn't even feel that the bots were really a problem, besides the crashing into mountainsides and stalling out against hf's. (but that are minor adaptions to be made)
No need for rocket strikes and other stuff.

Sorry guys, i gave it a try, but there is simply nothing for me to enjoy in this current game.
As it is now, it's even not playable anymore for me.
It's impossible to use my gamepad anymore.
And flying with mouse, well that was the main reason why i came over here from WT.
I really hate 'flying' with mouse. it's just pointing your mouse at targets you want to shoot

Edited by jack_wdw, 09 November 2017 - 04:22 PM.


Zinro #10 Posted 09 November 2017 - 05:25 PM

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Don't worry, the 2.0 honeymoon will end at some point and the game will have a new (dwindling) set of loyalists that will continue to the play the game.  You can't just push an update and hope for the game to rebound.  WG support for this game is severely lacking when compared to WoWS and WoT's in the forrm of in game special events and tournaments, as well as competitive play for clans (I think clans are totally useless in WoWP's since they were introduced).  No matter how good anyone thinks 2.x is, it will end with the same fate as 1.x did with the amount of WG involvement it has compared to the other two titles.  I wish WG the best of luck with this game, but even after 2.0, it still feels like the red headed step child. 

Tablecat #11 Posted 09 November 2017 - 06:53 PM

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Of the three main WG titles, I'm enjoying warplanes the most now. I burnt out on WoT long ago and I can't hit anything in WoWS (sorry to that nice Canadian guy that gifted me a Tirpitz).

Bajones #12 Posted 09 November 2017 - 08:37 PM

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What's the problem with 2.0? I recently joined after 2.0. Everyone said the game was bad but it's actually pretty fun, esp with being able to respawn compared to other wg titles.

Mercsn #13 Posted 10 November 2017 - 11:32 AM

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View Postnwlxn12, on 09 November 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

Don't worry, the 2.0 honeymoon will end at some point and the game will have a new (dwindling) set of loyalists that will continue to the play the game.  You can't just push an update and hope for the game to rebound.  WG support for this game is severely lacking when compared to WoWS and WoT's in the forrm of in game special events and tournaments, as well as competitive play for clans (I think clans are totally useless in WoWP's since they were introduced).  No matter how good anyone thinks 2.x is, it will end with the same fate as 1.x did with the amount of WG involvement it has compared to the other two titles.  I wish WG the best of luck with this game, but even after 2.0, it still feels like the red headed step child.

 

WG has always had the thinking that "it's difficult because it's in 3 dimensions" and that attitude carries over into their lack of support for it.  If they think it's "difficult", it will be.  Back in beta, there were numerous suggestions on how to help ease players into an arcady type flying shooter game as opposed to a 2d ground based shooter game.  The Russian development attitude towards it seems to be:  We made it, why don't they play it?  Then, back to the point of the thread, instead of making iterative changes in steps, they just swing too far from one direction to the opposite without bothering to try the HUGE patch of in between that would be the sweet spot for retaining players and having an enjoyable game for more people.

 

 


 

Again, the point of the thread isn't "gee 2.0 is the best!"  It's that 2.0 feels fun to me AND I'm dismayed that WG had to clobber so much that probably wasn't wrong with 1.x to get here.  And also, that it took them 4 years, when they had a game that everyone who has COMPLAINED about 2.0 would have enjoyed and most people who LIKE 2.0 would have enjoyed FOUR YEARS AGO with the beta patch 0.8.  It's terribly stupid that they keep trying to make a better wheel by making it more angular.


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.

Mercsn #14 Posted 10 November 2017 - 11:37 AM

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View PostBajones, on 09 November 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

What's the problem with 2.0? I recently joined after 2.0. Everyone said the game was bad but it's actually pretty fun, esp with being able to respawn compared to other wg titles.

 

I agree, it's fun.


 

However, for players who played the previous patch, and liked it, the flight model has been muddied to a point that there is less distinction between aircraft and aircraft types.  Also, there is much less customization options for both controller types and control schemes, as well as UI (user interface) display.


 

And...some people don't like the node control mode.  I'm going to chalk this one up to A) people don't like change B) People don't like having to learn knew things, especially if they were good at the previous thing


 

And...the game uses bots to flesh out the "PvP' teams.   Which might be ok, if they were upfront about it and actually programmed the bots with how to win a match AND gave players who want a pvp match the option to opt out of bot games (or really, that should be the default and players could opt in to bot games if they felt the queue was too long).


All the Important Thread Links (go here for answers!) Might be outdated!

All-in-one thread with 2.0 related guide links.

 

The below was said to me (Mercsn), from a concerned player:

Edited, on 12 March - 2:01PM , said:

and PS...play more, forum less.  Your opinion might be more credible.




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