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Scorching Sands: Outpost - Conquest is unbalanced.

Maps 2.0 Balance Conquest Bases

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AncientRaig #1 Posted 17 October 2017 - 09:52 PM

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Scorching Sands: Outpost with the 1x Military Base, 1x Garrison, 1x Airbase layout is unbalanced horrifically in favor of the team that spawns on the side with the sole Military Base on the map. With their spawn right next to the rocket site, it is nearly impossible to capture it before them or retake it and hold it once they gain it. This, combined with the regular, unstopable rocket strikes, makes the game's outcome predetermined simply by which team spawns on that side of the map unless the other team somehow manages to draw the game out until the squall hits and kills the entire enemy team before they win through inevitable total map domination. The team that gets the site just has to sit around and defend it, as the rocket site will do all the work for them, and the team that doesn't get it has to throw themselves at a brick wall in order to try and temporarily gain control of it. Either the site needs to be replaced with something else, or the other side needs to get a site as well.

boozen #2 Posted 17 October 2017 - 10:44 PM

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oh yeah and it begins.......:popcorn:

Tedster_ #3 Posted 17 October 2017 - 10:56 PM

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I definitely agree with this.  It's an interesting concept, but right now the Military Base is a bit overpowered IMO.
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Mugsy_ #4 Posted 18 October 2017 - 12:27 AM

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This is good feedback and definitely something we'll forward to the dev team for investigation.

Viper_7242NC #5 Posted 18 October 2017 - 12:39 AM

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View PostAncientRaig, on 17 October 2017 - 04:52 PM, said:

Scorching Sands: Outpost with the 1x Military Base, 1x Garrison, 1x Airbase layout is unbalanced horrifically in favor of the team that spawns on the side with the sole Military Base on the map. With their spawn right next to the rocket site, it is nearly impossible to capture it before them or retake it and hold it once they gain it. This, combined with the regular, unstopable rocket strikes, makes the game's outcome predetermined simply by which team spawns on that side of the map unless the other team somehow manages to draw the game out until the squall hits and kills the entire enemy team before they win through inevitable total map domination. The team that gets the site just has to sit around and defend it, as the rocket site will do all the work for them, and the team that doesn't get it has to throw themselves at a brick wall in order to try and temporarily gain control of it. Either the site needs to be replaced with something else, or the other side needs to get a site as well.

 

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amade #6 Posted 18 October 2017 - 01:03 AM

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I agree that it favours the southern team that's close to the Missile base, but mostly because it's hard to pull off the right tactic with your team if you're on the northern team.

 

The northern team can win if they blitz the airfield, and go straight for the missile base (it actually takes quite a while for the enemy team to cap it). If successful, they can delay the enemy cap or even take the missile base. If they fail to take the missile base, then they must defend the airfield by camping outside it between the airfield and the missile base. The reason for this is that if they die in the airfield, it adds to the enemy's cap points. However, they should allow one or two enemy planes through into the airfield every now and then so they can shoot them down in the sector to offset the points deficit caused by missile strikes. Any player controlled GAs should immediately head for the garrison at the start of battle to cap it as quickly as possible, with one or two fighters for escort. The key to victory for the northern team is to hold the garrison and airfield as much as possible to maintain points advantage. In particular they must not lose the airfield until the squall hits.

 

As you can see, that's a lot of teamwork and coordination to expect from random pubbies, which is why this map is unbalanced. All the southern team has to do is blitz the missile base and then throw planes at the airfield until the enemy exhaust themselves. Occasionally they can try sneak a few planes to the garrison as that sector would usually have no player defending it. It's simple and intuitive compared to what the northern team has to figure out to win the battle.


Edited by amade, 18 October 2017 - 01:04 AM.


pyantoryng #7 Posted 18 October 2017 - 02:16 AM

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Military Base (and bomber flights) should only leave bases at 159:1, not outright capture, so those from combat group would have to actually do the capturing.

 

Bomber flights can sometimes 1-shot an entire sector if left undeterred too. Good luck if there's no one kind enough to do the intercepting (in mid-high tier, one or two highflying plane with big guns do the trick).

 

Maps with one mining facility also suffer from this problem when said facility spawn close to one team (in Plateau variant that has it, it is right in front of western team's initial spawn), and all that team has to do is capture it and distract the enemy as bar fills...then again, bombers are not in trees yet, so there are not bombers everywhere like it is supposed to be...yet.



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NotEnuffDakka #8 Posted 18 October 2017 - 12:58 PM

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View Postpyantoryng, on 18 October 2017 - 02:16 AM, said:

Military Base (and bomber flights) should only leave bases at 159:1, not outright capture, so those from combat group would have to actually do the capturing.

 

Bomber flights can sometimes 1-shot an entire sector if left undeterred too. Good luck if there's no one kind enough to do the intercepting (in mid-high tier, one or two highflying plane with big guns do the trick).

 

Bomber flights are terribly easy to take down and not as OP as the missile strikes. Yes, you need a kind soul to intercept them, but it's not hard to convince a Heavy Fighter pilot to do it. It's easy points for them.

 

As for this map, it's asymmetrical but I'm not quite sure if I'd consider it imbalanced or unfair. It has a specific methodology to it and requires a specific strategy. The problem is getting your team to execute the strategy. Less experienced players will prefer to go Airstrip and Garrison, and that usually causes a loss, but as stated, if you rush the enemy military base, it's usually a GG to the northern team. Capping airstrip is optional, or at least you could leave 2 or 3 planes back there to cap it while the rest rush down the military base.

 

I think the fact that this map is considered imbalanced is due to how OP missile bases are. IMO they shouldn't give influence points, or the interval between missile strikes should be a lot longer. Or reduce the "cap damage" missiles can do, however this might be difficult to do. Missiles take out one whole ground target per hit, so nerfing that could be complicated.



StoptheViolins #9 Posted 18 October 2017 - 01:50 PM

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I've been in games where my numbutt team went 90% in on the center base - red easily captured the two military bases and we lost in like 5 minutes.

NotEnuffDakka #10 Posted 18 October 2017 - 02:15 PM

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View PostStoptheViolins, on 18 October 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

I've been in games where my numbutt team went 90% in on the center base - red easily captured the two military bases and we lost in like 5 minutes.

 

That's another variant of the same map. The map being discussed here is a variant of Scorched Sands where the south team has a Military Base close to it, while the northern team has a Garrison and an Airstrip.

AncientRaig #11 Posted 18 October 2017 - 05:56 PM

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View Postamade, on 18 October 2017 - 01:03 AM, said:

I agree that it favours the southern team that's close to the Missile base, but mostly because it's hard to pull off the right tactic with your team if you're on the northern team.

 

The northern team can win if they blitz the airfield, and go straight for the missile base (it actually takes quite a while for the enemy team to cap it). If successful, they can delay the enemy cap or even take the missile base. If they fail to take the missile base, then they must defend the airfield by camping outside it between the airfield and the missile base. The reason for this is that if they die in the airfield, it adds to the enemy's cap points. However, they should allow one or two enemy planes through into the airfield every now and then so they can shoot them down in the sector to offset the points deficit caused by missile strikes. Any player controlled GAs should immediately head for the garrison at the start of battle to cap it as quickly as possible, with one or two fighters for escort. The key to victory for the northern team is to hold the garrison and airfield as much as possible to maintain points advantage. In particular they must not lose the airfield until the squall hits.

 

As you can see, that's a lot of teamwork and coordination to expect from random pubbies, which is why this map is unbalanced. All the southern team has to do is blitz the missile base and then throw planes at the airfield until the enemy exhaust themselves. Occasionally they can try sneak a few planes to the garrison as that sector would usually have no player defending it. It's simple and intuitive compared to what the northern team has to figure out to win the battle.

 

View PostNotEnuffDakka, on 18 October 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

 

Bomber flights are terribly easy to take down and not as OP as the missile strikes. Yes, you need a kind soul to intercept them, but it's not hard to convince a Heavy Fighter pilot to do it. It's easy points for them.

 

As for this map, it's asymmetrical but I'm not quite sure if I'd consider it imbalanced or unfair. It has a specific methodology to it and requires a specific strategy. The problem is getting your team to execute the strategy. Less experienced players will prefer to go Airstrip and Garrison, and that usually causes a loss, but as stated, if you rush the enemy military base, it's usually a GG to the northern team. Capping airstrip is optional, or at least you could leave 2 or 3 planes back there to cap it while the rest rush down the military base.

 

I think the fact that this map is considered imbalanced is due to how OP missile bases are. IMO they shouldn't give influence points, or the interval between missile strikes should be a lot longer. Or reduce the "cap damage" missiles can do, however this might be difficult to do. Missiles take out one whole ground target per hit, so nerfing that could be complicated.

 

You're both right, it's not entirely impossible to win on this map. However, in a random game, even if you're in a 2 man squad working together, getting the entire team to agree to pull off that one specific strategy in a PUG is close enough to impossible to make the match unwinnable for the northern team. Even if you manage to cap it, getting the team to stay and hold it when the enemy spawns essentially right next to it is even harder. All in all it's too reliant on coordinated teamwork that won't happen outside of a pre-made group on voice comms.

IndygoEEI #12 Posted 21 October 2017 - 11:17 PM

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Scorching Sands Outpost is so unbalanced to the point where I'm thinking of going afk if I see it.





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