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A School For The New Pilots


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Raider_Bane #21 Posted 27 June 2017 - 04:08 PM

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View PostMARS_REVENANT, on 27 June 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

 

You have less than 200 battles.  You Kill/Death Ratio is 8.0, averaging 3.0 Kills/Game and a survival rate of 63%.

 

You are proof that new players don't nee to learn from vets.  You don't need to be asking for a school, you should be teaching it.  

 

I am not asking for a school for me, obviously.   My stats have nothing to do with what I am putting forward here.

MARS_REVENANT #22 Posted 27 June 2017 - 04:18 PM

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View PostRaider_Bane, on 27 June 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

 

I am not asking for a school for me, obviously.   My stats have nothing to do with what I am putting forward here.

 

Which is why I said you should be teaching, and that you are proof that new players don't need a school.


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Raider_Bane #23 Posted 27 June 2017 - 04:37 PM

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View PostMARS_REVENANT, on 27 June 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

 

Which is why I said you should be teaching, and that you are proof that new players don't need a school.

 

 

I do intend to be involved, but it will take more than just me, which is why I am putting this forth.

 

Anyway, if anyone, clans or individuals, students or instructors, wish to talk about this, feel free to PM me here or in game, or of course post here.

 

Thank you for your time!


Edited by Raider_Bane, 27 June 2017 - 04:44 PM.


GhostPrime #24 Posted 27 June 2017 - 08:24 PM

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View PostRaider_Bane, on 27 June 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

 

 

I do intend to be involved, but it will take more than just me, which is why I am putting this forth.

 

Anyway, if anyone, clans or individuals, students or instructors, wish to talk about this, feel free to PM me here or in game, or of course post here.

 

Thank you for your time!

 

Please keep me in the loop as well. I would like to see what you guys come up with. If you create a thread, I may be able to pin up the thread if needed


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Raider_Bane #25 Posted 27 June 2017 - 10:03 PM

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View PostGhostPrime, on 27 June 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

 

Please keep me in the loop as well. I would like to see what you guys come up with. If you create a thread, I may be able to pin up the thread if needed

 

I certainly will GP, and thank you.

GeorgePatton #26 Posted 28 June 2017 - 01:20 AM

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View PostRaider_Bane, on 25 June 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

When 2.0 hits, there will probably be a swell of returning vets, and hopefully, an influx of new pilots.  If WarGaming advertises and 2.0 is even a slight bit of a hit, there may be a good number of new pilots.  To my knowledge, there is no clan that has an actual effective dedicated school for these "seals" to train them in how to better enjoy this game. If an interest was taken to teach new pilots how to actually be effective in battle, I feel more would stay because the learning curve would be shortened by thousands of battles.  Seals would quickly become seal clubbers before tier 4 planes would even be researched, with proper training.

 

I am looking for a clan that would be interested in developing a low tier flight training school dedicated to teaching new pilots techniques not usually learned till several thousands of battles have been fought.  I am not only looking for a clan interested in this, but also instructors who would dedicate time to actual  training sessions and posting to a training site proper techniques. (The site has already been created with a number of posts.)  If no clan would take up this gauntlet, then I am interested in a new clan dedicated to training new pilots who would either stay in the training clan, or move on to another clan with certificates in hand awarded for abilities taught and performed.

 

What say you? Any interest?

 

 

During the closed alpha test, I discussed this at length with Wargaming - specifically how not having a dedicated group of 'flight instructors' would negatively impact the game. I called for Wargaming to manage a group of volunteers (with a gold allowance) to train new pilots for a specified number of hours per week as I've seen in many air combat games. Wargaming wasn't interested. I really think they should take a look at that again...

 

Volunteer pilot training is great and all that, but IMO this is something that is benefiting WG directly if it increases player retention, and the players who are taking their time to promote WG's product should be rewarded for that. Also, it would give WG a way to ensure that there is sufficient training coverage around whatever times they deem appropriate.

 

 

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Raider_Bane #27 Posted 28 June 2017 - 03:31 AM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 27 June 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:

 

During the closed alpha test, I discussed this at length with Wargaming - specifically how not having a dedicated group of 'flight instructors' would negatively impact the game. I called for Wargaming to manage a group of volunteers (with a gold allowance) to train new pilots for a specified number of hours per week as I've seen in many air combat games. Wargaming wasn't interested. I really think they should take a look at that again...

 

Volunteer pilot training is great and all that, but IMO this is something that is benefiting WG directly if it increases player retention, and the players who are taking their time to promote WG's product should be rewarded for that. Also, it would give WG a way to ensure that there is sufficient training coverage around whatever times they deem appropriate.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

I agree, but the first step is to establish an effective school.  Yes, perhaps the first step was to set it up long ago, but that did not happen. I wish it to happen now, and I am willing to dedicate time to do it.  GP has expressed interest, and we are exchanging private messages on the matter.

 

As it happens George,  this does not concern you as you have a disdain for lower tiers and this is all about new pilots in lower tiers.  Perhaps you would consider a similar effort in higher tiers if my efforts here are successful.

Bubba_Zanetti #28 Posted 28 June 2017 - 02:10 PM

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It's always entertaining to see the optimistic attitude of new players!  Is there a pool for when Raider_Bane quits/becomes a disgruntled vet?

 


GhostPrime #29 Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:06 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 27 June 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

 

During the closed alpha test, I discussed this at length with Wargaming - specifically how not having a dedicated group of 'flight instructors' would negatively impact the game. I called for Wargaming to manage a group of volunteers (with a gold allowance) to train new pilots for a specified number of hours per week as I've seen in many air combat games. Wargaming wasn't interested. I really think they should take a look at that again...

 

Volunteer pilot training is great and all that, but IMO this is something that is benefiting WG directly if it increases player retention, and the players who are taking their time to promote WG's product should be rewarded for that. Also, it would give WG a way to ensure that there is sufficient training coverage around whatever times they deem appropriate.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

I honestly really like the idea, and think that re-invigoring the community Aces is a good place to start with something like this. With the new mode upcoming there may be more people interested in either coming back to the forums, and game or new players just starting. This will create a need to educate those players on success in the game. 


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GeorgePatton #30 Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:07 PM

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View PostRaider_Bane, on 27 June 2017 - 10:31 PM, said:

 

I agree, but the first step is to establish an effective school.  Yes, perhaps the first step was to set it up long ago, but that did not happen. I wish it to happen now, and I am willing to dedicate time to do it.  GP has expressed interest, and we are exchanging private messages on the matter.

 

As it happens George,  this does not concern you as you have a disdain for lower tiers and this is all about new pilots in lower tiers.  Perhaps you would consider a similar effort in higher tiers if my efforts here are successful.

 

Take a step back there, Raider. Your confrontational language is not needed, and does not do anything to promote what you're setting out to do here. I've been around here a long time, and I've worked closely with many of the different departments within Wargaming and I've yet to see something successfully started by players become a Wargaming-official establishment. Things tend to either be started by players and end up running successfully with no Wargaming support, or they are started by/with Wargaming and receive support over the lifetime of the project. My recommendation is to establish this school thing with Wargaming to ensure that your volunteer pilots are compensated adequately for their time - receiving a stipend of gold or premium time for time spent training new players would be a way to give instruction appeal to the better players (if they wanted to train people out of the goodness of their hearts, they'd be doing it now...) and would give them a reason to sit at tier 1-4 or whatever and train people.

 

As far as my opinions on lower tiers are concerned, you don't know anything beyond the fact that I've said on these forums that I don't like playing at lower tiers. That in no way, shape, or form equates to having disdain for lower tiers. I think the playstyle is a lot slower and less exciting than tier 8+, but that does not mean I disdain it. 

 

Your language seems to suggest that you're worried I'm going to try to hijack your little project. Don't worry - if I were going to do that, I would have done it already. I don't want any part of something that's going to require my time that I'm not getting compensated for. I've done too much for Wargaming with nothing to show for it and I'm not doing it again.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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GeorgePatton #31 Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:09 PM

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View PostGhostPrime, on 28 June 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

I honestly really like the idea, and think that re-invigoring the community Aces is a good place to start with something like this. With the new mode upcoming there may be more people interested in either coming back to the forums, and game or new players just starting. This will create a need to educate those players on success in the game. 

 

I think this would be a good start, but we'd need to bring in some more people (like Raider here) to do it - I wouldn't want to see someone who has the dedication to start a project like this left out from the beginning because they didn't have a ready-made tag from several years ago. :)

 

 

Cheers!
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GouIdy #32 Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:12 PM

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View PostBubba_Zanetti, on 28 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

It's always entertaining to see the optimistic attitude of new players!  Is there a pool for when Raider_Bane quits/becomes a disgruntled vet?

 

Kind of reminds of a certain multiple personality that used to ignore the facts & reality while making arguments, in fact my re-roll detector is showing possible activity.

MARS_REVENANT #33 Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:22 PM

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View PostBubba_Zanetti, on 28 June 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

It's always entertaining to see the optimistic attitude of new players!  Is there a pool for when Raider_Bane quits/becomes a disgruntled vet?

 

new account does not = new player.

I never lose; either I win or I learn.

 


MARS_REVENANT #34 Posted 28 June 2017 - 04:25 PM

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View PostGhostPrime, on 28 June 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

 

I honestly really like the idea, and think that re-invigoring the community Aces is a good place to start with something like this. With the new mode upcoming there may be more people interested in either coming back to the forums, and game or new players just starting. This will create a need to educate those players on success in the game. 

 

This may look good on paper, however you need to be very careful about selecting who would be running this "school". The last thing we need is someone teaching the noobs how to stall bots in flights of double Heavy Fighters.

 

As Yoda used to say, be careful who you listen to on the forums, your stats might end up like theirs.


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Noreaga #35 Posted 28 June 2017 - 09:03 PM

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we did have WG run weekly training, nice idea no idea why it petered out.

 

I do remember it having 2-3 problems:

-WG guys running it tried their best but there was a disconnect between what they taught and what was being done in game

-some idiots thought it was funny to go to the training and stomp everyone

- The people who really needed the training were convinced that the game and high tier players were at fault and they did not need it.

 

1 and 2 are easily fixed but number 3 is all about human nature woo fun.

 

question i have is what would the focus be?

Play style with bots/against bots or Playing against humans both have very different approaches and tactics. 


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GeorgePatton #36 Posted 28 June 2017 - 11:38 PM

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View PostNoreaga, on 28 June 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

question i have is what would the focus be?

Play style with bots/against bots or Playing against humans both have very different approaches and tactics. 

 

I think a good 'training course' would teach how to utilize the forces of flight (as portrayed in the game...) to the student's advantage. Things like how energy is traded, how to judge which maneuvers to use in which situations, how to play maneuverability vs speed, roll rate vs turn rate, roll rate vs pitch rate, pitch rate vs turn rate, etc. IMO that should be on a syllabus system with records kept of students (a simple excel sheet for each 'enrolled' student tracking his or her progress) and then there should be generalized 'training days' where specific play styles are taught (BnZ or TnB).

 

Don't teach how to combat specific scenarios, but rather how best to employ an aircraft and leverage the physics to the student's advantage.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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Raider_Bane #37 Posted 29 June 2017 - 01:15 AM

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:honoring:View PostGeorgePatton, on 28 June 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

 

Take a step back there, Raider. Your confrontational language is not needed, and does not do anything to promote what you're setting out to do here. I've been around here a long time, and I've worked closely with many of the different departments within Wargaming and I've yet to see something successfully started by players become a Wargaming-official establishment. Things tend to either be started by players and end up running successfully with no Wargaming support, or they are started by/with Wargaming and receive support over the lifetime of the project. My recommendation is to establish this school thing with Wargaming to ensure that your volunteer pilots are compensated adequately for their time - receiving a stipend of gold or premium time for time spent training new players would be a way to give instruction appeal to the better players (if they wanted to train people out of the goodness of their hearts, they'd be doing it now...) and would give them a reason to sit at tier 1-4 or whatever and train people.

 

As far as my opinions on lower tiers are concerned, you don't know anything beyond the fact that I've said on these forums that I don't like playing at lower tiers. That in no way, shape, or form equates to having disdain for lower tiers. I think the playstyle is a lot slower and less exciting than tier 8+, but that does not mean I disdain it. 

 

Your language seems to suggest that you're worried I'm going to try to hijack your little project. Don't worry - if I were going to do that, I would have done it already. I don't want any part of something that's going to require my time that I'm not getting compensated for. I've done too much for Wargaming with nothing to show for it and I'm not doing it again.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

Glenn, I assure you I did not mean to come across as confrontational.  For that I do apologize. I have seen you describe low tiers as "low tier bull s%^", so I took that to be  disdain. I sit corrected as I misunderstood what I thought you had made clear.  I am glad you made this clear now, and relieved.:honoring:

 

No, I am absolutely not concerned my idea would be hijacked. My feelings are exactly the opposite. If someone were to put in the time and effort to do this without my involvement, I would simply offer whatever I had to offer and be excited to see it coming to fruition.  This is not about me, but about the idea itself.  There are pilots out there with twice the brain, 4 times the creativity, and ten times the know-how I have, so someone better taking and running with this would be great.



Raider_Bane #38 Posted 29 June 2017 - 01:17 AM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 28 June 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

 

I think a good 'training course' would teach how to utilize the forces of flight (as portrayed in the game...) to the student's advantage. Things like how energy is traded, how to judge which maneuvers to use in which situations, how to play maneuverability vs speed, roll rate vs turn rate, roll rate vs pitch rate, pitch rate vs turn rate, etc. IMO that should be on a syllabus system with records kept of students (a simple excel sheet for each 'enrolled' student tracking his or her progress) and then there should be generalized 'training days' where specific play styles are taught (BnZ or TnB).

 

Don't teach how to combat specific scenarios, but rather how best to employ an aircraft and leverage the physics to the student's advantage.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

WELL put Glenn, absolutely well put indeed.

 

As for the records, my idea is to have actual certificates for the pilots as for what they have learned, and accomplished, something like a resume' perhaps.



Raider_Bane #39 Posted 29 June 2017 - 01:37 AM

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View PostNoreaga, on 28 June 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

question i have is what would the focus be?

Play style with bots/against bots or Playing against humans both have very different approaches and tactics. 

 

At this point, my thought is to train in how to make the aircraft do what you want it to do, the mechanics I guess one could say. Yaw, post up and down, brakes, boost, coming out of a stall, rolling (both a simple roll and the "WarPlanes death roll"), and with new new pilots, definitions of the words we are using along with some physics involved.  I am  thinking of the very beginning mechanical basics.  Along with this, of course, tactics would need to be taught, B&Z (horizontal and vertical), T&B, enemy assessment (perhaps that would be a more intermediate course) and basic energy management.

 

I am a bit saddened to say that tactics against bots would be a side course, but the objective is to prepare them to fight you guys one day as they progress up the tiers.  I certainly hope someone would take it from there to teach them how one must grow, and change, as one flies in higher tiers.  But that is not for me, that is for someone else.

 

I do want all of you to know I am reading and making notes on every suggestion and advice you give here.  I am becoming even more excited about developing the school!

 

I will comment on one thing mentioned, and that is the ones who would sabotage the training.  Those of course would be expelled from the school, one by one, alt by alt, as they offer nothing of value just as some who post in these threads have nothing to offer of value.  I will also add, at this point because there is no WG involvement, therefore no game wide advertising, the school can be a close knit and small effort with a good ability to weed out the valueless. 

 

Looking forward to reading more wisdom from you pilots!


Edited by Raider_Bane, 29 June 2017 - 10:39 AM.


GeorgePatton #40 Posted 29 June 2017 - 02:58 AM

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View PostRaider_Bane, on 28 June 2017 - 08:15 PM, said:

 

Glenn, I assure you I did not mean to come across as confrontational.  For that I do apologize. I have seen you describe low tiers as "low tier bull s%^", so I took that to be  disdain. I sit corrected as I misunderstood what I thought you had made clear.  I am glad you made this clear now, and relieved.:honoring:

 

No, I am absolutely not concerned my idea would be hijacked. My feelings are exactly the opposite. If someone were to put in the time and effort to do this without my involvement, I would simply offer whatever I had to offer and be excited to see it coming to fruition.  This is not about me, but about the idea itself.  There are pilots out there with twice the brain, 4 times the creativity, and ten times the know-how I have, so someone better taking and running with this would be great.

 

 

Thanks for that, mate! It really means a lot! Reading this post, I really can't think of anyone better to run this off the top of my head!

 

As far as tactics to be used vs bots - my opinion on that is that a player who has a good knowledge of energy management in a three-dimensional environment and knows how to use his or her weapons would be able to observe the predictable behavior of the bots and react accordingly. Creating a separate course to deal with bots is, in my opinion, extraneous.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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