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Kill Stealing?


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MARS_REVENANT #41 Posted 14 December 2016 - 12:56 AM

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View PostPogo68, on 13 December 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

 

Actually that makes you the person who was in a 2 v 5 fight and and had a chance to turn that into a 2 v 2 fight but turned it into a 1 v 3 fight instead and three of them are now behind you.

 

I think you mean 2 v 4, and I still like my odds in a 1 v 3 when my option was to have some guy with tunnel vision probably selecting GA for his next victim.

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DInk_Spinkley #42 Posted 14 December 2016 - 03:31 AM

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View PostPogo68, on 13 December 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

 

Actually that makes you the person who was in a 2 v 4 fight and and had a chance to turn that into a 1 or 2 v 2 fight but turned it into a 1 v 3 fight instead and three of them are now behind you.

 

*math edit*

 

Yep.

greed is too much of a thing in this game though.


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MARS_REVENANT #43 Posted 14 December 2016 - 06:30 PM

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View PostDInk_Spinkley, on 13 December 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

 

Yep.

greed is too much of a thing in this game though.

 

You are more right than you know... greed keeps you on a target when you have 3 people on your tail, rather than leaving it and evade being killed.

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DInk_Spinkley #44 Posted 14 December 2016 - 09:38 PM

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View PostMARS_REVENANT, on 14 December 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

 

You are more right than you know... greed keeps you on a target when you have 3 people on your tail, rather than leaving it and evade being killed.

 

We get it. You're a troll who'd rather start a fight than have a conversation.

 

You're making a lot of assumptions about my play style.


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MARS_REVENANT #45 Posted 14 December 2016 - 10:03 PM

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View PostDInk_Spinkley, on 14 December 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

 

We get it. You're a troll who'd rather start a fight than have a conversation.

 

You're making a lot of assumptions about my play style.

 

We get it, you cant see the other side of an argument.  Having a 1 sided conversation is about as useless as a 1 legged man at an [edited]-kicking contest.

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GeorgePatton #46 Posted 14 December 2016 - 10:47 PM

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Kill stealing is definitely not OK. Now, just because somebody put some shots on a target does NOT mean it's 'their kill'. For something to be 'somebody's kill' they need to have done the VAST majority of damage on it, or have it in a position of such disadvantage that even a bot couldn't mess things up. In all other situations, it's fair game.

 

 

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Yagos2k16 #47 Posted 14 December 2016 - 10:50 PM

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No such thing as kill stealing, if its moving it ain't dead.

Players should prioritize tail clearing but if the player shooting at the target isn't in any danger or if you are at an angle where its more efficient to kill the plane in front of your ally then by all means shoot that effer down


Edited by Yagos2k16, 14 December 2016 - 10:55 PM.


GeorgePatton #48 Posted 14 December 2016 - 10:52 PM

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Do some reading about air combat (which this game is based on) and you'll understand the concept.

 

 

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BobozeeBear #49 Posted 14 December 2016 - 10:54 PM

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Exactly this^(Yagos got it). Stealing denotes possession/ ownership, you cannot own an enemy aircraft in game therefore kill stealing doesn't exist.

Edited by BobozeeBear, 15 December 2016 - 02:45 AM.

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GeorgePatton #50 Posted 14 December 2016 - 11:00 PM

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View PostBobozeeBear, on 14 December 2016 - 05:54 PM, said:

Exactly this^. Stealing denotes possession/ ownership, you cannot own an enemy aircraft in game therefore kill stealing doesn't exist.

 

View PostGeorgePatton, on 14 December 2016 - 05:52 PM, said:

Do some reading about air combat (which this game is based on) and you'll understand the concept.

 

 

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Yagos2k16 #51 Posted 14 December 2016 - 11:11 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 14 December 2016 - 05:52 PM, said:

Do some reading about air combat (which this game is based on) and you'll understand the concept.

 

 

Cheers!
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I have read about aircombat and the reason for each fighter taking on different targets is mostly to avoid collisions. that is understandable, but no where do you read that it is not acceptable to shoot down an allies target, especially if you believe it is to the battles advantage to free up the friendly plane of his duty and get him focused on clearing the rest of the enemy planes.

Edited by Yagos2k16, 14 December 2016 - 11:14 PM.


MelBrooks #52 Posted 14 December 2016 - 11:30 PM

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Good stuff.......it's about doing everything you can to win the game. If you have a good angle on a plane, attack it. Shooting a plane off a teammates tail, absolutely. The red guys on the other side want to do the exact same thing to you. The quicker you dispatch enemy planes and gain a numerical superiority to win the game, by all means, please do. Even if this means killing an opponent that a teammate was engaging. 

DInk_Spinkley #53 Posted 14 December 2016 - 11:46 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 14 December 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

Kill stealing is definitely not OK. Now, just because somebody put some shots on a target does NOT mean it's 'their kill'. For something to be 'somebody's kill' they need to have done the VAST majority of damage on it, or have it in a position of such disadvantage that even a bot couldn't mess things up. In all other situations, it's fair game.

 

 

Cheers!
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That's why I defined it very narrowly and specified that it's occurs when it is NOT being done to help the battle, and pointed out that it occurs rarely with human players (at the higher tiers anyway) but is common for bots to do it.
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MARS_REVENANT #54 Posted 15 December 2016 - 12:20 AM

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Let me spell out some reading for those that need to do some.

 

Pilot A:  Am I in Danger?

Yes - The decisions should be to evade death

No - Clear to Engage target.

 

Pilot B: Am I in Danger?

Yes - Oh well I'm going to keep trying to kill this guy anyway.

 

Now if pilot B would have tried evasive maneuvers and pulled any tails he had away, Pilot A could have engaged, quickly eliminated the target "stole it" and since Pilot B is still alive and leading targets away, Pilot A will have a much easier time clearing tails.

 

The reverse:

 

Pilot B stays on target, finishes target, but gets killed.  At the same time, Pilot A engages the tail, or tails.  1 tail breaks off and evades Pilot A, the other tail is now free to engage Pilot A.  You now have the two planes fighting Pilot A because pilot B decided it was better to be dead.

 

You can whine and cry all you want, if you are dead, it is because you chose not to live.  Think of the battle as a whole not a specific situation.

 

The guy that's on your tail, is clearing the tail of the guy you are on.  Think about that before preaching clearing tails before stealing kills.  Its chess... not checkers.


Edited by MARS_REVENANT, 15 December 2016 - 12:37 AM.

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Derpinoid #55 Posted 15 December 2016 - 01:14 AM

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There seems to be 2 topics that are getting confused. First kill stealing, which after so many instances of getting pegged down to 10hp, only to break loose and kill 2 or 3 more planes, and make the win, I don't believe in leaving a good kill shot go.

 

Now, the best plane to shoot at is one shooting a team mate, including the bots, because they are likely to break off your team mate, or die, win win. This is the win by numbers tactic. (this does not preclude targets of opportunity)

 

Another common tactic is climbing or wandering to the edge of the map, and letting the rest of your team die, then mop up the leftovers, great for stacking up kills, not so good for the rest of the team. Deplorable, but effective.


Edited by Derpinoid, 15 December 2016 - 01:24 AM.

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15EagleKeeper #56 Posted 15 December 2016 - 02:49 AM

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<- Guilty - but only when I'm eating up my target and at the last moment someone takes the kill for only a few HPs. But I do see a different side of the issue now that I've read this thread and find myself agreeing with the varying viewpoints that you don't own a kill...  Thanks to all...
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EspressoForHammy #57 Posted 15 December 2016 - 02:51 AM

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I only pull off a target when I'm in TS with someone that needs that target for a mission.

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GeorgePatton #58 Posted 15 December 2016 - 03:33 AM

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If you read Der Rote Kampfflieger or Fighting the Flying Circus, you'll see plenty of examples of pilots letting fights continue when they saw their buddy holding a clear advantage. They understood that the kill was their buddy's as long as he had the combat under control. As soon as things turned sideways, they were there to help, but they respected the effort it took their buddy to get there and as long as he wasn't in immediate danger they let him get the kill. Samurai is also a good read for this.

 

 

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BobozeeBear #59 Posted 15 December 2016 - 04:06 AM

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GP, you're hanging your hat on a bygone era, honour in the one on one dual at the birth of air combat disappeared long ago. It has evolved into a cold, quick and unmerciful modern ballet where passing up on a kill could turn a win into a loss, a living enemy is a dangerous enemy.

Believing that this game is Mano a Mano old west shoot out puts you and your allies at a distinct disadvantage in this team based game.


Edited by BobozeeBear, 15 December 2016 - 04:19 AM.

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GeorgePatton #60 Posted 15 December 2016 - 04:34 AM

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View PostBobozeeBear, on 14 December 2016 - 11:06 PM, said:

GP, you're hanging your hat on a bygone era, honour in the one on one dual at the birth of air combat disappeared long ago. It has evolved into a cold, quick and unmerciful modern ballet where passing up on a kill could turn a win into a loss, a living enemy is a dangerous enemy.

Believing that this game is Mano a Mano old west shoot out puts you and your allies at a distinct disadvantage in this team based game.

 

Well, I could also cite modern sources but I get it - that's beside the point in a game. Still ticks me off when people don't show respect even though it is just a game. Especially when somebody clearly took the time to set up something beautiful and they just come in and steal the kill. I get it, they're probably totally unaware of the dance it took to get to that point and they're focused on getting that kill and the associated XP (which is ANOTHER reason I hate killstealers....) because oh, yeah, I did leave it in a VERY vulnerable position... I mean, hanging a guy out to dry and then it takes 5 seconds to turn around, chances are some rando is going to come pick him off. Really unsatisfying lol

 

That's why I like playing with the old-guard DRACS and a bunch of the European guys - they have respect for the beauty of air combat and what it takes to get things to a sure advantage. There's other people out there, but I would have to get specific and well, that's kinda frowned upon around here lol - y'all know who you are! :)

 

 

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