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GeorgePatton vs DustyCH - Boom and Zoom vs Turn and Burn


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Poll: BnZ vs TnB (20 members have cast votes)

Do you realize votes are public?

  1. Yes (19 votes [95.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 95.00%

  2. Yes (1 vote [5.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.00%

Which do you prefer for the overall win?

  1. Boom and Zoom (7 votes [35.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.00%

  2. Turn and Burn (6 votes [30.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.00%

  3. It's anybody's game! (7 votes [35.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.00%

Which do you prefer for tier 2 - 4?

  1. Boom and Zoom (1 vote [5.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.00%

  2. Turn and Burn (15 votes [75.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 75.00%

  3. It's anybody's game! (4 votes [20.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

Which do you prefer for tier 5 - 7?

  1. Boom and Zoom (9 votes [45.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 45.00%

  2. Turn and Burn (7 votes [35.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.00%

  3. It's anybody's game! (4 votes [20.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

Which do you prefer for tier 8 - 10?

  1. Boom and Zoom (6 votes [30.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.00%

  2. Turn and Burn (8 votes [40.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

  3. It's anybody's game! (6 votes [30.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.00%

Team Dusty or Team Patton?

  1. Team Dusty (8 votes [40.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

  2. Team Patton (4 votes [20.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  3. I'll take you both 1 v 2! (8 votes [40.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

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GeorgePatton #1 Posted 11 August 2016 - 10:21 PM

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Hey Everybody!

 

As some of you (probably everybody by now...) know, DustyCH and I are going to be doing some BnZ vs TnB experiments and I thought it would be a cool idea to make a discussion thread here with a poll to see what the expected outcome is vs the actual outcome.

 



 

The Rules of Engagement (RoE):

 

  1. Dusty flies low-flying Japanese and Russian fighters,
  2. GeorgePatton flies high-flying aircraft,
  3. We alternate choice of map,
  4. We start at tier 2 and work our way up as high as we can (I have all the way to tier 10, so if he does, we'll go to 10),

 

Weather Permitting first battle to begin at 9:30 pm EST.

 



 

Pretty simple setup, so it should be good fun! I'm personally going to be looking for planes with exceptional speed, firepower, and boost capability. 

 

My Current Plane Selection Projection:

 

This is, of course, subject to change upon further research but this is what I'm looking at right now:

 

  • Tier 2: Ao.192 - Fully Upgraded + Improved Flaps, Aircraft Polish, and Engine Tuning. Pilot trained on Engine Guru I & II, Aerodynamics Expert
  • Tier 3: Fw.52 - Fully Upgraded + Improved Flaps, Aircraft Polish, and Engine Tuning. Pilot trained on Engine Guru I & II, Aerodynamics Expert
  • Tier 4: Bf.110 C-6 - (Premium, so no upgrades) + Improved Flaps, Aircraft Polish, and Engine Tuning. Pilot trained on Engine Guru I & II, Aerodynamics Expert
  • Tier 5: I-21 - (Gift, so no upgrades) + Improved Reflector Sight, Aircraft Polish, and Engine Tuning. Pilot trained on Engine Guru I & II, Aerodynamics Expert
  • Tier 6: Me.410 - Fully Upgraded + Improved Flaps, Aircraft Polish, and Engine Tuning. Pilot trained on Engine Guru I & II, Aerodynamics Expert
  • Tier 7: FW 190 D - First Engine + Best Guns + Aircraft Polish, Engine Tuning, Reflector Sight. Pilot trained on Engine Guru I & II, Aerodynamics Expert
  • Tier 8: J8M - (Premium so no upgrades) + Lightweight Airframe, Aircraft Polish, Control Surface Adjustment. Pilot trained on Engine Guru I & II, Aerodynamics Expert, and maybe Raptor Strike
  • Tier 9: Me.262 HG II - Top engine + second guns, Aircraft Polish, Engine Tuning, Improved Flaps. Pilot trained on Engine Guru I & II, Aerodynamics Expert.
  • Tier 10: XF-90 - tier 10 - Aircraft Polish, Engine Tuning, Additional Armor Plates. Pilot trained on Engine Guru I & II, Aerodynamics Expert.

 

Of course, most of these aircraft are heavy fighters but I do have 2 light fighters (I-21 and J8M) that I'm putting in the rotation due to their extreme speed and climb abilities. The J8M I can coax to 5200m with a single boost from the deck, while the I-21 will easily achieve 3300m with a single boost. I will be running standard ammunition - which does generally require one or two more passes than the fancy high explosive stuff. My first pass I'll be looking to damage wings to lessen Dusty's ability to dodge my next attack which generally gives me about a second more on target. I feel like the most challenging fights are going to be at the lower tiers where gun ranges are relatively close and I'll have to get within his 'chase range'. When the guns don't hit until 650m (tier 2) that means I'll only have 200m of firing before I need to go back up, or close more distance to deal more damage. I know logically that I need to break at 450-500m out, but whether I'll do that in the actual combat remains to be seen... I don't do what I should a lot... With the higher tiers, where my guns can reach out to 1200m (tier 6 and above) this really won't be an issue. Most of my aircraft I leave without a gunsight specifically because it gives me a little bit of 'spray room' for a dodging target from 1200m. Aircraft with slower-firing guns that need more deliberate aim, of course are the exception.

 

I'll be looking to set my attacks up from about 3000m AGL with dive speeds approaching the red-zone on my airspeed indicator to ensure the best safety margins. This also has the effect of increasing the gun dispersion ever so slightly, which again is beneficial when attacking a dodging target. My goal is to 'chip' his health down little by little rather than making a devastating pass. This will give me a bigger altitude buffer between us which means I'll safely maintain my altitude advantage throughout the entire combat. Attacks will be completely straight with no more than 1/4 turn at the climbout to maintain maximum speed. I don't turn more than 1/4 turn throughout an attack and I will break the attack and regain altitude in the event of a pass requiring more than 1/4 turn to maintain guns on target. (This is not required by the RoE and I may decide a situation warrants a deviation from this)

 

I do mount rockets on the Me.410, FW 190 D, and Me.262 HG II. I'm not sure if I am going to carry bombs on any of these - let me know in the poll if you want to see me try some high-altitude bomb kills! (I highly doubt I'll hit, but it could be fun...)

 



 

Thanks for the invitation to do this Dusty! I'm really looking forward to this!

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


Edited by GeorgePatton, 12 August 2016 - 05:51 AM.

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GeorgePatton #2 Posted 11 August 2016 - 10:22 PM

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Here are the replays for the night!

 

Attached File   2nd Half.zip   4.43MB

 

I ran out of space to upload - I'm going to see if I can get some extra upload space from GP.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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GiN_nTonic #3 Posted 11 August 2016 - 10:29 PM

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It can be very difficult to go 1v1 using BnZ tactics against a good pilot in a much more maneuverable plane.  I think slashing/diving BnZ play is most effective in a group, and at that point it becomes the clear choice over TnB.  1v1 is a very different type of game IMO.

 

I'd say the TnB has a better chance in that scenario. 



Nvfx #4 Posted 11 August 2016 - 10:41 PM

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Do you do spectators? I wanna watch after CCW

losttwo #5 Posted 11 August 2016 - 10:54 PM

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I had started something similar a long time ago.

I started in tier tier 1 with the P-12 vs each different aircraft.

Then i got bored with making the video's.

 

I have to agree with JlNN.  1 vs 1 tactics is far different than playing in a match.

 

I would really like to see the results of the J8M. I am on the side of it being a bad idea due to its flight characteristics.

The pros : small target

Cons against T&B

                 speed

                 manueverability

                 accuracy and gun overheat

 

Better hope that match is in a flat map with no terrain.



bearrick #6 Posted 11 August 2016 - 11:43 PM

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I think the outcomes will change depending on tiers and the opposing TnB aircraft choices.  But it will be interesting and I will eagerly await the results.

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GeorgePatton #7 Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:00 AM

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Yeah, I think tier 2 aircraft are really similar in terms of general capabilities. Tier 3 is slight more defined between BnZ and TnB, while tier 4 is where BnZ really comes into its own.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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Azis_ #8 Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:12 AM

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mnbv_fockewulfe #9 Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:42 AM

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My favorite BnZ tactic for 1v1 is what I call, "the fake out". You initiate a dive, this will get your opponent to respond with a dodge, but you pull out really quickly. While your opponent is finishing his move you dive on him then. One of three things will happen: 1. He's too good it doesn't work 2. You catch him unawares and shot him down. 3. In game setting he bugs out and runs away, allowing you to dive on him a catch him. 


 

edit: will you post times so we can join the room and spectate?


Edited by mnbv_fockewulfe, 12 August 2016 - 01:43 AM.

Be sure to check your logic privileges before posting on the forum.

 


 


GeorgePatton #10 Posted 12 August 2016 - 02:05 AM

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Yeah, I'll post the times - will have to talk to Dusty to see if he'd like spectators or not - he wants to post the films, so I don't think he'll have an issue with it unless it will make supremacy issues with people crashing to spectate?

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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DustyCH #11 Posted 12 August 2016 - 04:33 AM

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Thanks for putting this together Glenn. This is very exciting!

 

When do you want to schedule? I can probably do it tomorrow evening, like 9:30pm EST.

 

Yes, spectators are more than welcome. I don't have the ability to stream but if you do, please feel free to do so. You can certainly post the videos as well.

 

Thanks again,

Dusty



GeorgePatton #12 Posted 12 August 2016 - 05:50 AM

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Yes! Tomorrow at 9:30 pm EST sounds good! I will post an update here tomorrow by about 7pm EST about the weather - noaa.gov is currently saying there's a 20% chance of thunderstorms before midnight tomorrow. That might change, so I'll keep an eye on that and let you know! (For anyone who's wondering why that's important... My house isn't grounded and I've already lost 3 computers to storm-related power surges. I have to unplug all my electronics whenever a storm is coming through... It's a pain lol)

 

Spectators Welcome! First-come first serve basis! I'm currently thinking we'll delete the room for each tier switch, so there will be a chance for more people to be the first in and get a front-row seat if we fill up and have people that want to watch still.

 

My internet is pretty crappy (about 1.5 mb/s download and .5 mb/s upload) so unfortunately I won't be able to stream the goings-on (I'm going to give streaming a try tomorrow to see if I can possibly make it work, but I don't think it will without severely lagging my input which would throw the whole battle off...) but I do want to get as much exposure for this as possible! It's going to be pretty cool regardless of the outcome!

 

Thanks again for the challenge Dusty! I'm looking forward to it!

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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Agnotology #13 Posted 12 August 2016 - 05:52 AM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 12 August 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

Yes! Tomorrow at 9:30 pm EST sounds good! I will post an update here tomorrow by about 7pm EST about the weather - noaa.gov is currently saying there's a 20% chance of thunderstorms before midnight tomorrow. That might change, so I'll keep an eye on that and let you know! (For anyone who's wondering why that's important... My house isn't grounded and I've already lost 3 computers to storm-related power surges. I have to unplug all my electronics whenever a storm is coming through... It's a pain lol)

 

Spectators Welcome! First-come first serve basis! I'm currently thinking we'll delete the room for each tier switch, so there will be a chance for more people to be the first in and get a front-row seat if we fill up and have people that want to watch still.

 

My internet is pretty crappy (about 1.5 mb/s download and .5 mb/s upload) so unfortunately I won't be able to stream the goings-on (I'm going to give streaming a try tomorrow to see if I can possibly make it work, but I don't think it will without severely lagging my input which would throw the whole battle off...) but I do want to get as much exposure for this as possible! It's going to be pretty cool regardless of the outcome!

 

Thanks again for the challenge Dusty! I'm looking forward to it!

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

with You want at least 2 Mb/s upload to stream, and that is for 720p. I can do it if you guys can hold off till after CWs


GeorgePatton #14 Posted 12 August 2016 - 06:16 AM

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View PostAgnotology, on 12 August 2016 - 12:52 AM, said:

 

with You want at least 2 Mb/s upload to stream, and that is for 720p. I can do it if you guys can hold off till after CWs

 

That would be really cool! If Dusty is down with that, I'm all for it! Thanks for the offer (and the tech tip!), mate!

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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Ace_BOTlistic_Cosmo #15 Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:01 PM

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View PostGeorgePatton, on 12 August 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

 My house isn't grounded and I've already lost 3 computers to storm-related power surges. I have to unplug all my electronics whenever a storm is coming through... It's a pain lol)


-------------------

 

hey Glenn, I'll show you how to fix this for less than $30 in materials and only tools you need are a sledge hammer and a screwdriver...

PM me when you get a chance

 

edit:

Galvan .625-in x 8-ft Copper Grounding Rods $11.28
http://www.lowes.com...ng-Rods/3446270

Gampak 1-in Grounding Clamp $4.15
http://www.lowes.com...g-Clamp/1000571

Southwire 25-ft 8-Gauge Solid Soft Drawn Copper Bare Wire (By-The-Roll) $10.68
http://www.lowes.com...e-Roll/50372842

 

edit again:

save up for this later:


Eaton General Use Surge Protector (Auto-Off Safety) $68.74
http://www.lowes.com...-Safety/3381132

 


Edited by Ace_BOTlistic_Cosmo, 12 August 2016 - 01:41 PM.

if the pilot's good, see, I mean, if he's really..sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low [he spreads his arms like wings and laughs],

you oughtta see it sometime, it's a sight. A big plane like a '52. VRROOM! There's jet exhaust, fryin' chickens in the barnyard.


EspressoForHammy #16 Posted 12 August 2016 - 03:26 PM

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View PostAce_BOTlistic_Cosmo, on 12 August 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

hey Glenn, I'll show you how to fix this for less than $30 in materials and only tools you need are a sledge hammer and a screwdriver...

 

Uh oh. Someone handed Ace the tools again. George don't listen to a thing he says. He'll have you hitting holes into the walls to look for the electric mouse trails that are frying your PC.

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Bandet #17 Posted 12 August 2016 - 03:59 PM

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The Special Olympics?

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DustyCH #18 Posted 12 August 2016 - 04:29 PM

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Hey Glenn, Agno, yes, please stream. In fact, it would be better if Agno can do it, so the game play for Glenn is not affected. I plan to be online shortly before 9pm tonight so we can work out the details. Just PM me in the game so we can go to one the TS to talk.

 

One thing I would like to discuss is, the general conditions of this test. For instance, I could drop some bombs then hide, or you could do the same thing then go high where the fighter could not reach, but I don't think that's the purpose on this test. I don't think an outcome based on an "all out" game rules would reflect the test we are looking for. So I was thinking about how we could create a scenario where we will test the capabilities of each of those planes vs. each other. For example, what if we meet right at the center of the map, you would cross fly over me at about 3000 ft / 1000 m higher, then we start the engagement? 

 

We then should be allowed (and encourage) to hit AA shall the area of engagement moves toward a different area of the map, but winning by superiority should not be our objective. Would you agree?

 

My tactic for this matches, in general terms, would be to bring you low and turn behind you, so while you are taking some hit points off me on each pass, I will be trying to do the same when you pull away. I am also planning on bringing the match towards my AA, so that can help taking down your HP. 

 

With the current game play, what happens in most matches while flying the Yaks or Japanese airplanes, my team has the meter, but all the bots (besides the GAs) were killed and I am the last human. The friendly GAs are still hitting and progressing the meter, but I am flying low against a number of humans and bots. On this test, if possible, I would like to simulate this scenario, where you would need to destroy my aircraft in order to win. In the actual game, while you may have bots helping, you would only have a minute (or two) to destroy otherwise you loose the match by superiority. So not having bots helping but having more time to destroy each others will work out well for us - I guess.

 

In any case, I am open to any scenario (set of specific rules or "all out" rules), or any combination of them. Please give some thought and let me know how you would like to play those matches. We can even be on the same channel on TS so we can talk through.

 

Thanks again,

Dusty.

 

 

 

 



Porkins_Jr #19 Posted 12 August 2016 - 05:39 PM

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View PostBandet, on 12 August 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

The Special Olympics?

 

I don't even know who this was directed at!

GeorgePatton #20 Posted 12 August 2016 - 05:40 PM

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Yeah, I think the purpose of the test should be to see the viability of the 'Turn and Burn' tactical set versus the 'Boom and Zoom' approach which currently dominates the gameplay. I think being on a TS channel together would be a good thing as it will allow us to discuss what we're seeing and doing and develop specific scenarios to test more accurately. Different attack vectors, specific disengagement maneuvers, etc. 

 

Like you said, I don't think the purpose of this test is to see if we can win by superiority, but to see the viability of tactics. I think it would be cool if at each tier we'd do a fight with no superiority points and no pre-arranged meeting place just to see how that works out with the spotting mechanics and what that means for me in terms of flying a search pattern at a lower altitude than I would like to be at in order to be able to spot you and then see how that translates to an advantage to you, etc. After that initial fight, we can arrange scenarios like specific attack vectors against specific maneuvers, etc.

 

I'll be on around 9 (probably slightly before as well) and we can definitely talk in greater detail about how we're going to do it!

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn


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