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Is using terrain pathing issues to crash bots an exploit?


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losttwo #61 Posted 11 August 2016 - 11:03 PM

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View Postobamaphone, on 11 August 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

 Exploit? Complete rubbish, if this were the case you could literally consider every tactical advantage you take over an enemy bot an exploit. IMO if you are not using the terrain to your advantage when it's available to avoid BNZ tactics, make bots/people crash, dodge bullets then you are just selectively choosing your advantage opportunity's. Always seems these things become an issue when some of the best players are doing them. Nobody has said anything to me about using the terrain for defense except to do so to improve my game and i have been doing it since i started.

 

+ 1....ever notice how people complain about stuff when they are having their bots handed to them.

I have yet to see a thread about a potential problem with people posting back to back win's

 

EI :   posting 10, 15 or 20 screen shots of winning massacre's using a particular plane and the same tactic over and over.

      Commenting on the investigation they did to uncover the " problem " and asking to discuss it.



Bobby_Tables #62 Posted 12 August 2016 - 12:43 AM

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View Postobamaphone, on 11 August 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

 Exploit? Complete rubbish, if this were the case you could literally consider every tactical advantage you take over an enemy bot an exploit. IMO if you are not using the terrain to your advantage when it's available to avoid BNZ tactics, make bots/people crash, dodge bullets then you are just selectively choosing your advantage opportunity's. Always seems these things become an issue when some of the best players are doing them. Nobody has said anything to me about using the terrain for defense except to do so to improve my game and i have been doing it since i started.

 

+one.  Wild Weasels use land terrain to sneak up on enemy SAM/radar installations and destroy them.  Exploit?  You bet.  That's the same level of exploit discussed herein.  If you feel you must be a purist, fine, fly into open landscape so your bot battle to the death is "fair".  

 

[Edited to prevent moderation penalty.  Legal Statement:  All statements/opinions in this or any past/present/future posts are mine and mine alone and do not represent the opinions of my employer, their subsidiaries, or various and sundry customers, clients, prospects, agencies, federal, state, municipal and other governmental authorities or hacks.]


Edited by Bobby_Tables, 12 August 2016 - 12:53 AM.


losttwo #63 Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:10 AM

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View Postobamaphone, on 11 August 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

 Exploit? Complete rubbish, if this were the case you could literally consider every tactical advantage you take over an enemy bot an exploit. IMO if you are not using the terrain to your advantage when it's available to avoid BNZ tactics, make bots/people crash, dodge bullets then you are just selectively choosing your advantage opportunity's. Always seems these things become an issue when some of the best players are doing them. Nobody has said anything to me about using the terrain for defense except to do so to improve my game and i have been doing it since i started.

 

View PostBobby_Tables, on 11 August 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

 

+one.  Wild Weasels use land terrain to sneak up on enemy SAM/radar installations and destroy them.  Exploit?  You bet.  That's the same level of exploit discussed herein.  If you feel you must be a purist, fine, fly into open landscape so your bot battle to the death is "fair".  

 

[Edited to prevent moderation penalty.  Legal Statement:  All statements/opinions in this or any past/present/future posts are mine and mine alone and do not represent the opinions of my employer, their subsidiaries, or various and sundry customers, clients, prospects, agencies, federal, state, municipal and other governmental authorities or hacks.]

 

To be fair to Agnotology and the original discussion. We are not discussing tactical aspects of the game but the " lack " of programing that cause a " glitch " in the system.

Like a bot just flying along at low altitude and failing to even attempt to climb over a mountain with no immediate threat of engagement.

A player can in essence pop up over a terrain feature, become a target, dive back behind the terrain feature and watch the bot fly into the terrain feature

as he tries to engage the player.

And yes it does happen...perhaps i should have made video's of those few times I have done it.

 

As for the stalling bots, certainly not a glitch in any way shape or form. Heck, it takes so long to get a human to understand " stop climbing to engage "



mnbv_fockewulfe #64 Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:46 AM

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I only half read the first page.:popcorn:

Be sure to check your logic privileges before posting on the forum.

 


 


Agnotology #65 Posted 12 August 2016 - 02:03 AM

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View PostDustyCH, on 11 August 2016 - 12:34 PM, said:

Dear Agno,

 

The other day I was at the Dracs TS, you seemed like a reasonable guy. But then you posted a link on the TS to a very disturbing picture...  I understand that was a joke (everyone laughed) but to be honest, since then I wonder about your discernment and age. Seems like our question on each others mindset is mutual. 

You don't get to visit Dracs TS without me directing you to Goatse or a prolapsed rectum.  I do not recommend anyone looking up these items without having a vomit bag handy.  You can call it hazing, or an initiation right.  You were given an invite last night, and the antics we (or in this case, with myself) that happen we need to know you can handle. 

 

Sorry if you feel I am trolling your post. I am not. I am a forum newbie, and made only 105 posts total. I intended to discuss, per your request, your main point. On the other hand, you took a tangent on the subject, and then asked about my age twice. Are you sure you are not trolling your own post? lets stay in the subject. I will do the same, last time on this post.

Those posts had nothing to contribute to the topic, and were absolute troll posts. Age is relevant in the way things are worded.  I speak to BEARSS in a different way I speak to, say, Bobo,  and to someone my own age like SkyWhale (alex) differently as well.

 

So here we go: I understand you are upset that bots and humans crash when dealing with terrain. This is not my fault. Bots also stall, ain't my fault either.

I wouldn't use the term upset,  but for the sake if speed, I'll agree it is not your fault either of these things happen.

 

As you know, the programmers created maps with elaborated terrain features. This was done intentionally, and to provide a resource for low flying, maneuverable aircraft. I explained on TS how the RU players fly. If you are flying a low aircraft, you should use the terrain features to your own (team) advantage. 

Absolutely use terrain to your advantage. If you can get them to stop shooting you via terrain, do it.

 

In fact, you should use every possible available resource to your advantage. Sorry, but I can't get around the idea you disagree with that. Not using the terrain on a low flying aircraft is like not using boost on a heavy.

Concur.

 

My skill (or lack of) in this game should not have a relationship to your own enjoyment of the game. I play the game because it is fun to me. Simple as that. 

I don't recall player skill, yours, mine, or anyones, being in question in this. I play any game for the same reasons.

 

Back in the day, when I was flying heavies, I was criticized, yelled, insulted... and I remember talking to some of the top players here something along those lines: "when I start flying Japanese planes, people will complain the exact same way... and their response was: they will never complain, and you will never fly those planes.."

I learned early to ignore these people.  I wasn't good at it, so I stuck with making fun of them. Way more entertaining that way.

 

Then I was challenged by another good player to fly Japanese planes. and turned out I did somewhat well on them, and now I only want to fly them. This is the most fun line in the game in my very honest opinion. This was probably the best thing that happened on the game for me - thank you Espresso!

Advancing the meta sounds fun.

 

Let me give you a good example on how fun it is: You are competing against another human player... the guy is on your six, flying low, banking right, left, shooting you down, then you adjust your turn and fly through a tunnel, or next to a feature. The player is forced to break away or he will crash. U turn around and get on his six, and he is dead after a shot or two. Now tell me, isn't this a lot more fun than just keep stalling bots? or boom and zoom on humans?

I can't honestly comment on this. My only low fliers are the Yak-9 and A6M5. I love derping things in the Yak, and I unequivocally HATE the A6M5, but would like to reach the J7s at some point. It does sound fun, but this isn't the circumstance I am describing.

 

And here we are. A whole post, on the subject, on how unfair it is to use terrain. I admit that Gang was right about the game, but unfortunately wrong about the player base complaints. Well, nothing he can do about that. Players will complain no matter what. They complain when people fly good, fly bad, stop flying, or fly too much... Love the internet.

 

Good luck and happy hunting.

 

So I pose to you this: Is it fun when you vertically circle a cliff face and bots lemming into the cliff face in rapid succession? Is it fun to circle around a steep-sided mountain and watch bots crash into it? You describe what are essentially 1v1 situations where I understand terrain is the name of the game, but I am speaking of when this is done in a 1v4+ situation.  Is stalling out the bots the same? In my opinion no, because they did not program them to stop climbing when they hit a certain airspeed threshold. They should have, but didn't.  They have taken steps to stop bots crashing, but certain obstacles still beat out the fixes. 

 

 

 

Thank you for taking this thread seriously. When we talked the other night, I was drunk and couldn't put my express my thoughts well, and so I felt bad because you might have taken it as a out-of-left field attack on your play style. Replies in bold.

 

For everyone in here, please keep in mind the real issue - bots are in the game. Bots that don't think about the fact that they might have a big lead, and have no need to shoot that last plane down. They don't need to climb to kill that heavy, they don't have to fly into AA to kill that last plane. 

 

Have the bots with a simple algorithm to NOT engage when there is no need to do so. If this was in place, stalling the bots and getting them to crash en masse would no longer be a factor.


Edited by Agnotology, 12 August 2016 - 02:06 AM.


TeamTerrible #66 Posted 12 August 2016 - 02:15 AM

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View PostAgnotology, on 11 August 2016 - 09:03 PM, said:

 

Thank you for taking this thread seriously. When we talked the other night, I was drunk and couldn't put my express my thoughts well, and so I felt bad because you might have taken it as a out-of-left field attack on your play style. Replies in bold.

 

For everyone in here, please keep in mind the real issue - bots are in the game. Bots that don't think about the fact that they might have a big lead, and have no need to shoot that last plane down. They don't need to climb to kill that heavy, they don't have to fly into AA to kill that last plane. 

 

Have the bots with a simple algorithm to NOT engage when there is no need to do so. If this was in place, stalling the bots and getting them to crash en masse would no longer be a factor.

 

 

This could be as easy to introduce if the bots would actually go where you want them to

 

Another next to useless key function is to click "attention" to a certain area....mostly used by people who actually think you are going to follow them into enemy AA or some other tactically unsound area

 

Bots hang out with you until they either lose interest or see a target and they rush in pronto and there is nothing a player can do to stop their stupidity

 

If a player could map where they want these bots to go then it would resolve a few issues including when to say when

 


 

 

         


Agnotology #67 Posted 12 August 2016 - 03:19 AM

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View PostTeamTerrible, on 11 August 2016 - 09:15 PM, said:

 

 

This could be as easy to introduce if the bots would actually go where you want them to

 

Another next to useless key function is to click "attention" to a certain area....mostly used by people who actually think you are going to follow them into enemy AA or some other tactically unsound area

 

Bots hang out with you until they either lose interest or see a target and they rush in pronto and there is nothing a player can do to stop their stupidity

 

If a player could map where they want these bots to go then it would resolve a few issues including when to say when

 

 

Aye, but we are playing a flight game, not a flight commander. 

 

 I would absolutely support the removal of F2 utility but that is another thread entirely.


Edited by Agnotology, 12 August 2016 - 05:16 AM.


losttwo #68 Posted 12 August 2016 - 07:56 AM

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View PostAgnotology, on 11 August 2016 - 09:03 PM, said:

 

For everyone in here, please keep in mind the real issue - bots are in the game. Bots that don't think about the fact that they might have a big lead, and have no need to shoot that last plane down. They don't need to climb to kill that heavy, they don't have to fly into AA to kill that last plane. 

 

Have the bots with a simple algorithm to NOT engage when there is no need to do so. If this was in place, stalling the bots and getting them to crash en masse would no longer be a factor.

 

Programmers can NOT successfully create an algorithm that imitates passive aggressive behavior.

It is impossible with in this limited " game space " to give AI the human quality of decision making.

 

The algorithm would need a standard point to go passive such as supremacy is ahead by 25 points and the clock is 30% in the lead.

Then all bots would go passive including the one on your tail. This would then result in people complaining about losing matches to

the same way they complain about bots crashing for no reason.

 

If you alternated randomly the passive "gene " ( similar to the GA ) then the possibility of getting all passive bots vs all aggressive bots

would create a huge imbalance in match making and game play. The forum will be full of  " my bots were target drones " complaints.

 

There is a reason ALL games use AGGRESSIVE pattern programing in AI's.

 

I could go further into it but I think you get the idea that WG is incapable of giving us want we want.



Bandet #69 Posted 12 August 2016 - 04:01 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 12 August 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

 

 

If you alternated randomly the passive "gene " ( similar to the GA ) then the possibility of getting all passive bots vs all aggressive bots

would create a huge imbalance in match making and game play. The forum will be full of  " my bots were target drones " complaints.

 

 

Or you could just be like, in the battle only a max of 4 bots can be passive.


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losttwo #70 Posted 12 August 2016 - 05:16 PM

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View PostBandet, on 12 August 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

 

Or you could just be like, in the battle only a max of 4 bots can be passive.

 

roflmao..yeah the 4 that just crashed to give up the win.

Bandet #71 Posted 12 August 2016 - 07:58 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 12 August 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

 

roflmao..yeah the 4 that just crashed to give up the win.

 

And then sometimes you'd get a free win because the enemy team had 4 that crashed. It balances out.

 

You just don't think of it that way because every time you win, it's your super mad leet very awesome skillzors... but when you lose it's not you sucking its your team.


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Bandet #72 Posted 12 August 2016 - 07:59 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 11 August 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

I have yet to see a thread about a potential problem with people posting back to back win's

 

You have now

http://forum.worldof...riment/#topmost


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losttwo #73 Posted 12 August 2016 - 08:20 PM

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View PostBandet, on 12 August 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

 

oops forgot about that one..lol...short memory due to all the whine threads.

Tophatfire #74 Posted 13 August 2016 - 10:56 AM

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View Postlosttwo, on 11 August 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

 

+ 1....ever notice how people complain about stuff when they are having their bots handed to them.

I have yet to see a thread about a potential problem with people posting back to back win's

 

EI :   posting 10, 15 or 20 screen shots of winning massacre's using a particular plane and the same tactic over and over.

      Commenting on the investigation they did to uncover the " problem " and asking to discuss it.

 

As much as you love to say that, it hasn't been true any of those times.  People have been saying the game became flat and unchallenging for a lot of months now but you argue with them too.




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