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Noreaga #21 Posted 27 July 2016 - 01:50 PM

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The ace is a little too easy to get played 18 games and got 5-6 aces, and that was after a long break. The bots still pull the same moves every time, once you've taken out the human threats not hard to grab another 1-3 kills on them.

 

I either carry hard with 4+ kills or i get stomped in the first 5 min, i assume once i shake the rust ill find the in between. 


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dityboycom #22 Posted 27 July 2016 - 01:52 PM

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View PostNoreaga, on 27 July 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

The ace is a little too easy to get played 18 games and got 5-6 aces, and that was after a long break. The bots still pull the same moves every time, once you've taken out the human threats not hard to grab another 1-3 kills on them.

 

I either carry hard with 4+ kills or i get stomped in the first 5 min, i assume once i shake the rust ill find the in between. 

 

I haven't. I found once a human gets on my tail they never break off and eventually bots join them, so I am force to take them out of the figh tand to the deck. Naturally they all follow, and then its up to chance if my bots win up top or not.

Marraskuu #23 Posted 27 July 2016 - 01:59 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 27 July 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

next I will write about the psychology of trolling.

 

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Omega_Weapon #24 Posted 27 July 2016 - 02:00 PM

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I think the game would actually be more fun if win rate was not tracked at all. No upset feelings when your team sucks ballz. No need to hold a grudge if player X shoots you down, because losses won't directly hurt your stats. Instead they should only track player efficiency. Kills scored vs deaths and damage inflicted vs damage incurred.

dityboycom #25 Posted 27 July 2016 - 02:01 PM

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View PostOmega_Weapon, on 27 July 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

I think the game would actually be more fun if win rate was not tracked at all. No upset feelings when your team sucks ballz. No need to hold a grudge if player X shoots you down, because losses won't directly hurt your stats. Instead they should only track player efficiency. Kills scored vs deaths and damage inflicted vs damage incurred.

 

They do keep those stats doe.

dityboycom #26 Posted 27 July 2016 - 02:02 PM

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Ehem, sorry.



Mackunaima #27 Posted 27 July 2016 - 03:08 PM

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Well, Im going to share with you somethings I discovered looking inside WoWP scripts. Unfornutally I couldn't understand everything cuz most of scripts rules are on the server side. So I used an interface to grab the data being transfered under WoWP Restfull JSON protocol/conversation. I took a few months to get this, cuz they used ofsucator and encryption over their DLL's. My machines was on many weeks processing things.

 

I can't show/share over here the things I discovered. Problably I will have law complications.

 

But lets tell the thing:

 

Right on the start of battle some bots will be defined to engage the highest "threath" on the enemy team, it is problably calculated by WR, number of matches on that plane and KD ratio, I imagine something very close to Hryunnomod. So in the case of 60% WR, the game will define a number of bots enough to match you, in this case will be 2 of 55% ( veteran) and a bot with 50% ( Soldier).

 

Well the scenario so is 2 bots over you, being like this:

- 1 Human 60% WR against 2 Vet Bots with 55%

- 9 bots against 7 bots;

 

So the enemy team is outnumbered, and for the sake of balance the enemy team will shot down 2 bots of your team to turn thing equal. If you kill the bots on your six, you will again turn the things unbalanced and MM will try to fix this again. This will happen a number of times as needed untill MM can't fix this.

 

If you kill too fast the enemy bots you can brake the chances of MM to fix this, but if your pace is not so fast MM can overmatch you. Or you can kill with a slower pace supporting your bots and just doing very little fix to your side.

 

MM just try to fix the threath you become during the match. You need to be faster enough to brake this or ninja enough to kill just in the right moment.

 

There is another thing, all of this are RNG with boudaries. Sometimes you just can't revert this no matter how hard you try. But this is just a few times.

 

I will say again, they didn't use any concepts of AI for bots, just parametrized arguments and event triggers for bots. So you can mess up all these events. many of did realize this just testing game. I tried to go further and see how things were designed. I need to say, poorly.

 

They will give me again a few days out of the forum. :hiding:

 

Regards,

Mack


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Porkins_Jr #28 Posted 27 July 2016 - 03:26 PM

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Mack will be quietly sent on vacation later today.

Mackunaima #29 Posted 27 July 2016 - 03:32 PM

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View PostPorkins_Jr, on 27 July 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

Mack will be quietly sent on vacation later today.

 

Problably. And I need to say, I don't care too much cuz I'm almost really done with this game.

 

They have any respect for their own customer.


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EspressoForHammy #30 Posted 27 July 2016 - 03:37 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 27 July 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Psychology of stats.

 

wut stats mate?

 

When bots walked in the front door, stats walked out the back. ANYTHING other than which OP or UP planes you play is completely pointless now.


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Caecias #31 Posted 27 July 2016 - 03:44 PM

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View Postlosttwo, on 27 July 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

next I will write about the psychology of trolling.

 

View PostBuffaloTime, on 27 July 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

 

bites tongue

 

:bajan:

 

 


Noreaga #32 Posted 27 July 2016 - 03:58 PM

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View PostMackunaima, on 27 July 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

Well, Im going to share with you somethings I discovered looking inside WoWP scripts. Unfornutally I couldn't understand everything cuz most of scripts rules are on the server side. So I used an interface to grab the data being transfered under WoWP Restfull JSON protocol/conversation. I took a few months to get this, cuz they used ofsucator and encryption over their DLL's. My machines was on many weeks processing things.

 

I can't show/share over here the things I discovered. Problably I will have law complications.

 

But lets tell the thing:

 

Right on the start of battle some bots will be defined to engage the highest "threath" on the enemy team, it is problably calculated by WR, number of matches on that plane and KD ratio, I imagine something very close to Hryunnomod. So in the case of 60% WR, the game will define a number of bots enough to match you, in this case will be 2 of 55% ( veteran) and a bot with 50% ( Soldier).

 

Well the scenario so is 2 bots over you, being like this:

- 1 Human 60% WR against 2 Vet Bots with 55%

- 9 bots against 7 bots;

 

So the enemy team is outnumbered, and for the sake of balance the enemy team will shot down 2 bots of your team to turn thing equal. If you kill the bots on your six, you will again turn the things unbalanced and MM will try to fix this again. This will happen a number of times as needed untill MM can't fix this.

 

If you kill too fast the enemy bots you can brake the chances of MM to fix this, but if your pace is not so fast MM can overmatch you. Or you can kill with a slower pace supporting your bots and just doing very little fix to your side.

 

MM just try to fix the threath you become during the match. You need to be faster enough to brake this or ninja enough to kill just in the right moment.

 

There is another thing, all of this are RNG with boudaries. Sometimes you just can't revert this no matter how hard you try. But this is just a few times.

 

I will say again, they didn't use any concepts of AI for bots, just parametrized arguments and event triggers for bots. So you can mess up all these events. many of did realize this just testing game. I tried to go further and see how things were designed. I need to say, poorly.

 

They will give me again a few days out of the forum. :hiding:

 

Regards,

Mack

 

wow, just in case i have this right.

 

The game is now a series of checkpoints, sort of like a choose your own adventure story book. If you perform the right task at the right time you will win if you don't you will lose? very little to do with actual skill and more about "guiding" the mechanics?

 

scripts and algorithms are not something i understand beyond they do stuff.


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Caecias #33 Posted 27 July 2016 - 04:15 PM

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View PostMackunaima, on 27 July 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

Well, Im going to share with you somethings I discovered looking inside WoWP scripts. Unfornutally I couldn't understand everything cuz most of scripts rules are on the server side. So I used an interface to grab the data being transfered under WoWP Restfull JSON protocol/conversation. I took a few months to get this, cuz they used ofsucator and encryption over their DLL's. My machines was on many weeks processing things.

 

I can't show/share over here the things I discovered. Problably I will have law complications.

 

But lets tell the thing:

 

Right on the start of battle some bots will be defined to engage the highest "threath" on the enemy team, it is problably calculated by WR, number of matches on that plane and KD ratio, I imagine something very close to Hryunnomod. So in the case of 60% WR, the game will define a number of bots enough to match you, in this case will be 2 of 55% ( veteran) and a bot with 50% ( Soldier).

 

Well the scenario so is 2 bots over you, being like this:

- 1 Human 60% WR against 2 Vet Bots with 55%

- 9 bots against 7 bots;

 

So the enemy team is outnumbered, and for the sake of balance the enemy team will shot down 2 bots of your team to turn thing equal. If you kill the bots on your six, you will again turn the things unbalanced and MM will try to fix this again. This will happen a number of times as needed untill MM can't fix this.

 

If you kill too fast the enemy bots you can brake the chances of MM to fix this, but if your pace is not so fast MM can overmatch you. Or you can kill with a slower pace supporting your bots and just doing very little fix to your side.

 

MM just try to fix the threath you become during the match. You need to be faster enough to brake this or ninja enough to kill just in the right moment.

 

There is another thing, all of this are RNG with boudaries. Sometimes you just can't revert this no matter how hard you try. But this is just a few times.

 

I will say again, they didn't use any concepts of AI for bots, just parametrized arguments and event triggers for bots. So you can mess up all these events. many of did realize this just testing game. I tried to go further and see how things were designed. I need to say, poorly.

 

They will give me again a few days out of the forum. :hiding:

 

Regards,

Mack

 

View PostMackunaima, on 27 July 2016 - 10:32 AM, said:

 

Problably. And I need to say, I don't care too much cuz I'm almost really done with this game.

 

They have any respect for their own customer.

 

I have started to find similar congruencies to your stated claims;  Math, it doesn't lie.  All the data you need is catpured at Warplanes today.  You can run several different models on that data (on SAS, for instance) to tease out patterns not all that discernible to the unwilling, or unknowing eye (or those with no access to $5MM+ mathematical modeling computer clusters...)

 

There is no true AI at play - its scripted imbalance.  That can be shown... pragmatically through evidence; Intended or not..  You don't necessarily need to look at the scripts.  

 

As I have noted before there is better AI on PEZ dispensers, and there are no odds to describe the lucid and protrayed mismatches that happen in this game (it goes beyond being hit by lightning, or winning the lottery, within certain scenarios).  Now I dont have the history playing this game that many of you have, but from what I observed (and can mine at warplanes today) since being here, its more than obvious - from crashing bots, and seemingly impotent bots - that the AI is more or less a three card monte game, instead of being a rigorous fair playing field at any given time; again, intended or not is not what I am questioning - it is what it is.

 

Your points about RNG are interesting....  from my first observation of absurd bullet paths, hit rates, and other, more broad applications of RNG to MM, and bot behavior, I had been inspired to take the steps on which you have embarked. I'd even double down that for your first flights, and first flights in any given plane, the RNG is "relaxed" bating the user with easier - dare I say more fair - competition.

 

I have quickly been dismissed for a reason - and I get it now. You echo the mis-invoked - but now-realized righteous disgust - of many players; and now with some experience rendered, I understand why in a far reaching effort to emptahize with those who have called it out...   

 

Math.  It. Doesn't. Lie.

 

I'll accept that some of my methodologies could be in err.  I don't have complete insights and made assumptions, and yet continue to change those assumptions...  but come on, man.  

 

At this point, I am leaning toward removing all bots; this is a change of heart since hearing an echo of my own suspicions, from a different path of discovery and different perspective.

 

Peace,

C-

 

 

 

  

 

 


Edited by Caecias, 27 July 2016 - 04:46 PM.

 

 


Omega_Weapon #34 Posted 27 July 2016 - 04:22 PM

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View Postdityboycom, on 27 July 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

 

They do keep those stats doe.

 

Yeah. I'm just saying keep those and eliminate win rate / loss rate. Without it, you probably get rid of 90% of the reason to "stat pad".

Twinki #35 Posted 27 July 2016 - 04:27 PM

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I dont see how someone should count their stats in as afterall most of the games Id see are 70% with bots. 

Caecias #36 Posted 27 July 2016 - 04:30 PM

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View PostNoreaga, on 27 July 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

 

wow, just in case i have this right.

 

The game is now a series of checkpoints, sort of like a choose your own adventure story book. If you perform the right task at the right time you will win if you don't you will lose? very little to do with actual skill and more about "guiding" the mechanics?

 

scripts and algorithms are not something i understand beyond they do stuff.

 

To a large extent you are correct...

 

Discreet mathematics - in short, the application of math distilled (or reduced) to logical statements of computer code, that lends itself to creating these scripts, and programming in general - has intentions, an many possible unintended consequences when applied in environments with many variables...  fractal science & mathematics is born from observing this phenomena baked out on computers (I spent a large part of my undergrad studying chaos, computers and physics in this very light.)   

 

So what happens is you create boundaries - envelops of acceptable allowances and constraints - and work within those envelops to mock some sort of realistic behavior.  If it appears random enough to the user, its accepted as fair, and realistic.  Most, if not all, RPG's and simulations rely on this, however.  This is important to realize.

 

With regards to this game, the envelops are not acceptable - that's why most of you (and I) are frustrated. There is no real appearance of fair competition.  

 

Moreover, this is why AI will never achieve what the human brain can...  we are in fact wired for the unexplained and the unknown. Our neural network is, by evolutionary miracle, wired to accept the unexplainable and make immediate changes to adapt -  whether through invented fiction, blind faith of the divine, or will to discover, imagine, and create, maybe more... its evidence of our free will in its most profound sense.  AI programming (with our current paradigm of science and technology) will never achieve this - only come really. really, really close in approximating it - and at the moment, were are truly far away.

 

Sorry to rip the bandaid off so fast - there are a ton of philosophical and mathematical nuances to consider, which are much more painful but do provide a better explanation. 

 


Edited by Caecias, 27 July 2016 - 05:11 PM.

 

 


Mackunaima #37 Posted 27 July 2016 - 04:38 PM

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View PostNoreaga, on 27 July 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

 

wow, just in case i have this right.

 

The game is now a series of checkpoints, sort of like a choose your own adventure story book. If you perform the right task at the right time you will win if you don't you will lose? very little to do with actual skill and more about "guiding" the mechanics?

 

scripts and algorithms are not something i understand beyond they do stuff.

 

HYeah you are right. It is very close to it, but they left some spaces for your creativity and to you work your skills out to overmatch these checkpoints during battle. So you still nedd the skill to do your job as soon as it is requested.

 

 


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Noreaga #38 Posted 27 July 2016 - 04:48 PM

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Thank you both, makes sense.

 

 

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dityboycom #39 Posted 27 July 2016 - 05:01 PM

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Mack depresses me when he make my conspiracy theories come true.

Mackunaima #40 Posted 27 July 2016 - 05:08 PM

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View Postdityboycom, on 27 July 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Mack depresses me when he make my conspiracy theories come true.

 

Im sorry, but Im trying to show you you are right. I thiought this could make you happy. :hiding:

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