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CrayolaCrayon #1 Posted 18 March 2016 - 05:34 AM

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Mr_D_Duck #2 Posted 18 March 2016 - 05:45 AM

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Nice a great example of WHY 3 Man Flights were eliminated ... THANKS !

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Nvfx #3 Posted 18 March 2016 - 07:06 AM

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View PostMr_D_Duck, on 17 March 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

Nice a great example of WHY 3 Man Flights were eliminated ... THANKS !

 

I don't understand why you are still complaining about 3 man flights when this is clearly result of:

1. Greed of enemy players (spit and several other planes tunneling on 1 guy)

2. Use of teamwork, and the enemy team's lack thereof. (Heavy in the beginning coming in by himself, attempting a 1v3) 

3. Understanding your plane's ability. Think I saw a heavy turn fighting.

 

Teamwork is op. please nerf teamwork.


Edited by Envioux, 18 March 2016 - 07:10 AM.


losttwo #4 Posted 18 March 2016 - 09:18 AM

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Excellent flying and showing how well the I-210 functions at clearing tails, gaining you more kills.

 



TeamTerrible #5 Posted 18 March 2016 - 11:18 AM

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View PostMr_D_Duck, on 18 March 2016 - 12:45 AM, said:

Nice a great example of WHY 3 Man Flights were eliminated ... THANKS !

 

 I thought they were removed to knock the population down from 800 to 300?


 

Oh, that's just what happened when you remove a part of teamwork from a team based game

 

 


 

 

         


MagusGerhardt #6 Posted 18 March 2016 - 01:41 PM

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View PostMr_D_Duck, on 17 March 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

Nice a great example of WHY 3 Man Flights were eliminated ... THANKS !

 

No, three man flights were eliminated because Studia Persha got tired of running a game that could attract more than 1,000 players.

 

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GouIdy #7 Posted 18 March 2016 - 01:44 PM

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I forgot all about the days of 3-man flights against bots.

 

 

Posted Image


Edited by GouIdy, 18 March 2016 - 01:49 PM.


Zapperguy #8 Posted 18 March 2016 - 01:47 PM

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View PostEnvioux, on 18 March 2016 - 02:06 AM, said:

 

I don't understand why you are still complaining about 3 man flights when this is clearly result of:

1. Greed of enemy players (spit and several other planes tunneling on 1 guy)

2. Use of teamwork, and the enemy team's lack thereof. (Heavy in the beginning coming in by himself, attempting a 1v3) 

3. Understanding your plane's ability. Think I saw a heavy turn fighting.

 

Teamwork is op. please nerf teamwork.

 

As a victim of many OP 3-man flights, I feel obligated to point out your use of the word "Teamwork". I identified myself as a victim of these flights because regardless of which team you were on, you were always at a disadvantage as a solo pilot. As for being on the opposing team, you saw their fate in the video. But pay closer attention to the green "team" in the video and this trio's "eagerness" to assist their non-flight teammates. It's no coincidence that they were the only survivors; this was commonplace. So, for many players seeing an OP 3-man flight in a battle meant you were going to die whether you were green or red.

 


 

To point out a specific example in the above video, note the friendly cry for help at 2:12 by thebeatlesO100. He is virtually at 12:00 and on screen when he calls out. His cries went unanswered as there was another easy kill to add to the tally - apparently far more important than helping a teammate who isn't in your flight. He was killed at 2:59. The fact that he got no assistance from any member of the flight was not lost on him as he commented, "thanks team" after his death.

 

 

I guess teamwork is in the eye of the blinder-wearing beholder.

:facepalm:



MagusGerhardt #9 Posted 18 March 2016 - 01:55 PM

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View PostZapperguy, on 18 March 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

 

 

 

I guess teamwork is in the eye of the blinder-wearing beholder.

:facepalm:

 

Well written red herring.

 

Let's discuss how often the AI's that have been inserted by the Devs do what you criticize those three for.  The answer is, quite rarely.  You have to dangle a bogey on your six in front of their face like a doggie treat before they'll bite.  Maybe that's changed in the recent patch.

 

Flight teamwork is different than full team teamwork.  If I join a flight I sign up to cover a friend or two's butts.  Conversely when I hit the "BATTLE" button flying solo I am NOT signing up to cover the butts of 14 random dudes.  I'm signing up to cover their butts when it's convenient and doable.

 

Take the anti flight axe out of here.  We told you and every other anti flighter what would happen when they were taken out; population plummeted.  Case closed.  :B


 

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Zapperguy #10 Posted 18 March 2016 - 02:13 PM

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View PostMagusGerhardt, on 18 March 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

 

Well written red herring.

 

Let's discuss how often the AI's that have been inserted by the Devs do what you criticize those three for.  The answer is, quite rarely.  You have to dangle a bogey on your six in front of their face like a doggie treat before they'll bite.  Maybe that's changed in the recent patch.

 

Flight teamwork is different than full team teamwork.  If I join a flight I sign up to cover a friend or two's butts.  Conversely when I hit the "BATTLE" button flying solo I am NOT signing up to cover the butts of 14 random dudes.  I'm signing up to cover their butts when it's convenient and doable.

 

Take the anti flight axe out of here.  We told you and every other anti flighter what would happen when they were taken out; population plummeted.  Case closed.  :B

 

I've been far happier flying with/against non-helpful bots that are programmed to behave in certain ways than I was with OP flights of humans who made the conscious choice to NOT help a teammate for their own benefit, not survival. To say the population drop was primarily the result of changing flights from 3 to 2 is to completely ignore the MM debacle resulting in 40 minute waits for 1v1 battles. Let's not cherry pick history.

:honoring:



MagusGerhardt #11 Posted 18 March 2016 - 02:35 PM

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View PostZapperguy, on 18 March 2016 - 07:13 AM, said:

 

I've been far happier flying with/against non-helpful bots that are programmed to behave in certain ways than I was with OP flights of humans who made the conscious choice to NOT help a teammate for their own benefit, not survival. To say the population drop was primarily the result of changing flights from 3 to 2 is to completely ignore the MM debacle resulting in 40 minute waits for 1v1 battles. Let's not cherry pick history.

:honoring:

 

I'm not.  All you're pointing out is that prior to the introduction of bots (A player suggestion) the Development staff hasn't had a clue what changes to make to the game to improve the environment and encourage growth.

 

The removal of three man flights is included in the list of reasons they are seen as feckless and inept.  They even admitted themselves that the real reason they removed three man flights was due to their inability/unwillingness to make the Flight Finder tool work to create three man groups, not due to any statistical variance in game outcomes.


 

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Tonzzo #12 Posted 18 March 2016 - 02:50 PM

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View PostZapperguy, on 18 March 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

 

I've been far happier flying with/against non-helpful bots that are programmed to behave in certain ways than I was with OP flights of humans who made the conscious choice to NOT help a teammate for their own benefit, not survival. To say the population drop was primarily the result of changing flights from 3 to 2 is to completely ignore the MM debacle resulting in 40 minute waits for 1v1 battles. Let's not cherry pick history.

:honoring:

Who is cherry picking what.....  The MM issue was before the 3 man flights were removed.  WG did what they could to spin the drop in population as having to do with 3man flights.  Then the population dropped further....  Then came rubber banding.  I would love to just sit down and make a timeline of all of the failures we have endured.  It's actually sad yet hilarious at this point....   Cherry picking with a axe? Just chop down the whole tree!!!



 


BrushWolf #13 Posted 18 March 2016 - 03:02 PM

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View PostMr_D_Duck, on 18 March 2016 - 12:45 AM, said:

Nice a great example of WHY 3 Man Flights were eliminated ... THANKS !

 

Even if they had not been flighted the result would have been the same and you know that.

 

View PostEnvioux, on 18 March 2016 - 02:06 AM, said:

 

I don't understand why you are still complaining about 3 man flights when this is clearly result of:

1. Greed of enemy players (spit and several other planes tunneling on 1 guy)

2. Use of teamwork, and the enemy team's lack thereof. (Heavy in the beginning coming in by himself, attempting a 1v3) 

3. Understanding your plane's ability. Think I saw a heavy turn fighting.

 

Teamwork is op. please nerf teamwork.

 

Complaining is what the Duck does.

 

View PostTeamTerrible, on 18 March 2016 - 06:18 AM, said:

 

 I thought they were removed to knock the population down from 800 to 300?


 

Oh, that's just what happened when you remove a part of teamwork from a team based game

 

 

 

This is effectively true. They removed them for two reasons. The first was they were unable to make the unused looking for flight feature work with three man flights. Number two was the unintended consequence of causing certain planes to always dominate which was magnified by flights with the almost always single tier MM that made small matches most of the time.

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TeamTerrible #14 Posted 18 March 2016 - 03:06 PM

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View PostTonzzo, on 18 March 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

Who is cherry picking what.....  The MM issue was before the 3 man flights were removed.  WG did what they could to spin the drop in population as having to do with 3man flights.  Then the population dropped further....  Then came rubber banding.  I would love to just sit down and make a timeline of all of the failures we have endured.  It's actually sad yet hilarious at this point....   Cherry picking with a axe? Just chop down the whole tree!!!

 

No, they must test us to see how far we can tolerate the madness or have become mad because of it.


 

Actually I just wanna see Tonzzo's timeline of all the epic failures


 

 

         


Zapperguy #15 Posted 18 March 2016 - 03:22 PM

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View PostZapperguy, on 18 March 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

 

I've been far happier flying with/against non-helpful bots that are programmed to behave in certain ways than I was with OP flights of humans who made the conscious choice to NOT help a teammate for their own benefit, not survival. To say the population drop was primarily the result of changing flights from 3 to 2 is to completely ignore the MM debacle resulting in 40 minute waits for 1v1 battles. Let's not cherry pick history.

:honoring:

(included for completeness)

View PostMagusGerhardt, on 18 March 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

 

I'm not.  All you're pointing out is that prior to the introduction of bots (A player suggestion) the Development staff hasn't had a clue what changes to make to the game to improve the environment and encourage growth.

 

The removal of three man flights is included in the list of reasons they are seen as feckless and inept.  They even admitted themselves that the real reason they removed three man flights was due to their inability/unwillingness to make the Flight Finder tool work to create three man groups, not due to any statistical variance in game outcomes.

 

I wasn't trying to point that out at all. I was pointing out that 3 person flights were overwhelmingly game-changing solely to the benefit of 3 out of 30 players, EVERY battle. While it wasn't the reason that WG changed from 3 to 2 (I didn't forget why it was changed, and even though I was in favor of it, I did literally LOL when they admitted their inability to program a solution), this video is a prime example of why OP flights weren't beneficial nor healthy for the community as a whole. Some almighty stats were racked up as certain tiers were virtually blocked for players looking to grind. People got sick of dying to the same OP flights again & again, and many just stopped playing since they couldn't progress up any tree past whatever tier was the flavor of the month. Ah "The Experiment", but I digress. I don't have documented proof that this was a significant cause of our population decline, but I heard in chat from countless other solo pilots during their "reign" who were sick of being demoralized every battle. Many stopped playing - I couldn't specifically ask them "Why?" because they didn't come back. 

 

View PostMagusGerhardt, on 18 March 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

 

Take the anti flight axe out of here.  We told you and every other anti flighter what would happen when they were taken out; population plummeted.  Case closed.  :B

 

This part is clearly stated as cause and effect. I didn't pick up on how I was to infer that this was simply "included in the list..." as you said in your follow up.

I respect you a lot Magus, always have. I just disagree with you on the impact these flights had on everybody who wasn't them. How often did you face the flight in the video again and again while trying to grind a stock plane? It's all about perspective. People use an old adage to tout the benefits of getting up in the morning: The early bird gets the worm. But you know what, the early worm gets f*%@ed. Solo pilots were early worms in the OP 3man flights, tier gaming heyday and it negatively impacted our small community - there's not really an argument to be made that it didn't. 

 

For now the game is what it is, and I still enjoy playing it. Hope to see you in the skies flighted or not.

:honoring:



CrayolaCrayon #16 Posted 18 March 2016 - 03:55 PM

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View PostZapperguy, on 18 March 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

 

As a victim of many OP 3-man flights, I feel obligated to point out your use of the word "Teamwork". I identified myself as a victim of these flights because regardless of which team you were on, you were always at a disadvantage as a solo pilot. As for being on the opposing team, you saw their fate in the video. But pay closer attention to the green "team" in the video and this trio's "eagerness" to assist their non-flight teammates. It's no coincidence that they were the only survivors; this was commonplace. So, for many players seeing an OP 3-man flight in a battle meant you were going to die whether you were green or red.

 


 

To point out a specific example in the above video, note the friendly cry for help at 2:12 by thebeatlesO100. He is virtually at 12:00 and on screen when he calls out. His cries went unanswered as there was another easy kill to add to the tally - apparently far more important than helping a teammate who isn't in your flight. He was killed at 2:59. The fact that he got no assistance from any member of the flight was not lost on him as he commented, "thanks team" after his death.

 

 

I guess teamwork is in the eye of the blinder-wearing beholder.

:facepalm:

There is such a thing as target prioritization. The game isn't about kills it's about taking care of threats first as in kill what can kill you. Why would we sacrifice ourselves and lose the game the game to go for "easy kills". It's not smart to dive into 6 enemies to get one and die yourself it's best to work on the fringes of the fur ball to leave yourself options. Fast and I killed plenty of enemy planes that were shooting at our team mates you just couldn't see it from Phraps perspective but you can see it in the kill feed. Phrap was playing pretty passive that game and was mainly clearing Fast's and my own tail after we would dive into the fur ball.

 

Your example of not saving some random guy in an IL is the same thing as what I said above about target prioritization. 

View PostZapperguy, on 18 March 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

(included for completeness)

 

I wasn't trying to point that out at all. I was pointing out that 3 person flights were overwhelmingly game-changing solely to the benefit of 3 out of 30 players, EVERY battle. While it wasn't the reason that WG changed from 3 to 2 (I didn't forget why it was changed, and even though I was in favor of it, I did literally LOL when they admitted their inability to program a solution), this video is a prime example of why OP flights weren't beneficial nor healthy for the community as a whole. Some almighty stats were racked up as certain tiers were virtually blocked for players looking to grind. People got sick of dying to the same OP flights again & again, and many just stopped playing since they couldn't progress up any tree past whatever tier was the flavor of the month. Ah "The Experiment", but I digress. I don't have documented proof that this was a significant cause of our population decline, but I heard in chat from countless other solo pilots during their "reign" who were sick of being demoralized every battle. Many stopped playing - I couldn't specifically ask them "Why?" because they didn't come back. 

 

 

This part is clearly stated as cause and effect. I didn't pick up on how I was to infer that this was simply "included in the list..." as you said in your follow up.

I respect you a lot Magus, always have. I just disagree with you on the impact these flights had on everybody who wasn't them. How often did you face the flight in the video again and again while trying to grind a stock plane? It's all about perspective. People use an old adage to tout the benefits of getting up in the morning: The early bird gets the worm. But you know what, the early worm gets f*%@ed. Solo pilots were early worms in the OP 3man flights, tier gaming heyday and it negatively impacted our small community - there's not really an argument to be made that it didn't. 

 

For now the game is what it is, and I still enjoy playing it. Hope to see you in the skies flighted or not.

:honoring:

 

Also Zapperguy it is true that we were in every battle at every tier 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Zapperguy #17 Posted 18 March 2016 - 04:21 PM

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View PostCrayolaCrayon, on 18 March 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

There is such a thing as target prioritization. The game isn't about kills it's about taking care of threats first as in kill what can kill you. Why would we sacrifice ourselves and lose the game the game to go for "easy kills". It's not smart to dive into 6 enemies to get one and die yourself it's best to work on the fringes of the fur ball to leave yourself options. Fast and I killed plenty of enemy planes that were shooting at our team mates you just couldn't see it from Phraps perspective but you can see it in the kill feed. Phrap was playing pretty passive that game and was mainly clearing Fast's and my own tail after we would dive into the fur ball.

 

Your example of not saving some random guy in an IL is the same thing as what I said above about target prioritization. 

 

Also Zapperguy it is true that we were in every battle at every tier 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

 

I remember.

:teethhappy:

All due respect to all 3 of your flying skills and teamwork amongst yourselves; however, would it not be more beneficial to the green team as a whole if at the start of a battle you let them know where they needed to be if they wanted to be close enough to warrant cover? But if more friendlies lived then they might have actually killed an enemy, and I guess that shouldn't be allowed.

:sceptic:

 

I don't fly with a stat-based mindset. I just enjoy the battle. I win some; I lose some. Sure winning is better, but either way at the end of the day I had fun. I don't get upset if I lose a few in a row. It was different when 3 person flights of skilled players on comms sat for hours in the same 3 OP planes stomping all comers. That wasn't fun as I've made clear in my earlier posts.

 

 

I'm always happy to face you in battle and see if just maybe... Hope to see you in the skies!

:honoring:

MagusGerhardt #18 Posted 18 March 2016 - 04:28 PM

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The respect is shared, Zapper, but, this is a polarizing issue that I still carry a bucket of salt over.

 

Why?  Because players I enjoyed flying with moved on to other games when it became obvious that we could no longer work together here.  Still more moved on when no substitute was given for small group tactics when random battles were taken away.

 

And I did face three man groups while flying solo or with a single wingman.  Those that were less skilled I stomped all over, those that were more skilled eliminated me in short order; that's the nature of aerial combat.

 

In either case I realized something back then; winning or losing was a *hell* of a lot more fun when I was doing it with two friends compared to the same experience flying solo.


 

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Tonzzo #19 Posted 18 March 2016 - 04:29 PM

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I said it before and ill say it again....

 

The Gun, Rocket and even Bomb features of this game is far to OP!  It is killing our population and MUST be removed immediately!  There is absolutely no reason for us to deny it any longer.  Who wants to be shot down?  Not me...  Who wants to be flying along just enjoying the scenery and be blasted out of the sky by some violent / ill mannered and obviously immature individual?  NOT ME!  Who wants to be flying around behind a aircraft (Where you think it would be safe....) and find they have a automated gun that has 100% accuracy (although fires slowly enough) and hurts more and more the longer you stay in range...  NOT ME!!!  And to make it worse if you decide to fly even closer and give that guy a piece of your mind....  BOOOOMMM...  He Bombs you.....


 


 

I demand we change the name of this game immediately from World of WARplanes to World of Peace!  We can not afford to continually support such violent behavior!  Also I would ask that we all petition to have WG remove all soda from their vending machines....  It supports obesity and causes them to move one step closer to "Fat, Dumb and Happy"!!!  Lord knows any person WG related and even not WG related is just a little dumber for reading this post....  So if this post made you laugh (and I hope it did) then stay away from the soda in the vending machines as you are on that final step!


 

Thanks and Have a glorious day...


 


 



 


Blaaarggh #20 Posted 18 March 2016 - 04:44 PM

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View PostTeamTerrible, on 18 March 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

 

No, they must test us to see how far we can tolerate the madness or have become mad because of it.


 

Actually I just wanna see Tonzzo's timeline of all the epic failures

 

 

Someday, this game is going to end up in textbooks as a prime example of how poorly a game can be managed and developed.  And in that passage, there will be quotes from Victor Kislyi blaming players and all his other nonsense.

 

I miss how the 20's sounded in 1.5.  Probably the only sound then I thought was good.  So much better than the ACK-ACK-ACK-ACK we have now.


Edited by _BotPrime_, 18 March 2016 - 04:45 PM.

Please apply dirt, rocks and trees to your aircraft sparingly.

 

I have this theory that loudly ticking clocks can be wound with massive blunt objects.  By striking the clock with great force the energy would transfer into the gears, not unlike winding it.   I plan on testing this someday.

 





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