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Thoughts on the P-47 line


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tyy #21 Posted 04 December 2015 - 11:05 PM

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ok let me explain this: the p47's have the speed and agility of heavies...got that? BUT...they have the armament of LF's.....that makes them INFERIOR to every heavy in the game...but the whole 'multi-role' model is of a fighter that can't fight and a ga that can't ga....its a plane that does TWO things badly IF it is an american plane because only soviet and german planes can be OP.... 

HoH_Wolfblitz #22 Posted 04 December 2015 - 11:20 PM

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View Posttyy, on 04 December 2015 - 11:05 PM, said:

ok let me explain this: the p47's have the speed and agility of heavies...got that? BUT...they have the armament of LF's.....that makes them INFERIOR to every heavy in the game...but the whole 'multi-role' model is of a fighter that can't fight and a ga that can't ga....its a plane that does TWO things badly IF it is an american plane because only soviet and german planes can be OP.... 

 

I think it moght be worth waiting until they're actually released to tell if they're this UP...



HZero #23 Posted 05 December 2015 - 12:16 AM

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View PosthvPALANTIRION, on 04 December 2015 - 03:55 AM, said:

 IRL 32lbs/sec of lead comes from a P-47!

 

If my math is right, your P-47 either has twenty four machine guns on it or shoots at roughly three times the normal rate.  

 

8 guns x 13.33 rounds per second (800 rounds per minute) x 1.62 oz/round =  172.8 oz/sec = 10.8 lbs/sec

 

And my numbers might be high, that other flying game (that we are not allowed to mention here even though the forum rules say we are allowed to mention it here) lists the burst mass at 9.7 lbs/sec (4.4 kg/sec).

 

View PostRedSpartacus, on 04 December 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

P-47 good for hunting GAs, nice.

All planes are good for hunting GAs. In the majority of all battles you have these two numb GA bots where one crashes into the ground and the other flies straight.

 

Not, not really.  For the same reason you don't take your P-51 hunting GAs:  1) machineguns don't do well against armored ground attack aircraft and 2) your plane operates better at high altitudes (see below).

 

View PostDInk_Spinkley, on 04 December 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

 

But the "'multi-role' thing" is a reality. Look at the F-15, F-16 and F-18 and......It's more of a reality today as air forces transition to single types of planes (JSF). Heck the United States is even working on eliminating pilots altogether.

 

Yes and no.  Planes that can accomplish multiple roles, yes.  But not in the types of action we have in WoWp.  Nobody loads an F-16 down with bombs and then expects it to drop them and then try to climb into a high altitude dogfight.  Nor do they expect pilots to fight with all those bombs attached.  Instead a role is determined for the aircraft *before* the battle, and it sticks to that role during the battle.   And in WoWp's metagame, if you take your "multi-role" to the deck, you handicap your team by leaving them outnumbered in the air.

 

View Posttyy, on 04 December 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

ok let me explain this: the p47's have the speed and agility of heavies...got that? BUT...they have the armament of LF's.....that makes them INFERIOR to every heavy in the game...but the whole 'multi-role' model is of a fighter that can't fight and a ga that can't ga....its a plane that does TWO things badly IF it is an american plane because only soviet and german planes can be OP.... 

 

Close but no cigar.  The P-47's have slightly better agility and speed than the heavies do, and in some cases, a better optimal altitude.  It takes them longer to kill the heavy, yes, and that is the balancing factor, because once the P-47 drops onto the tail of the heavy, the heavy is not going to survive without help from a team mate. 

 

TL/DR:  Don't hunt GA's with it, hunt heavies with it.


Edited by HZero, 05 December 2015 - 12:17 AM.

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outwardpanicjoe #24 Posted 05 December 2015 - 01:48 AM

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View Post20thCenturyLtd, on 04 December 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

 

Simple, they didn't have WG to nerf their aircraft.

 

you  i like you lol:teethhappy::honoring:

Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Chokai #25 Posted 05 December 2015 - 02:59 AM

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View Postoutwardpanicjoe, on 04 December 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

 

how did Britain and the US every get air superiority will never know lol

Short Answer: War Isn't fair. Long Answer: Buckle Up.

 

Air Superority wasn't won prior to Americas entry, but air equality was won in the BoB. Why? British pilots flew again when shot down, Germans didn't. Germans could barely fight due to fuel time, and had to protect bombers.

 

Then come the Americans. They actually almost had to cancel the first offensive of the air due to losses- daylight raiding leads to huge losses, and enemies DONT LIKE IT WHEN YOU BOMB THEIR CITIES. Their are reports of pilots literally flying til out of fuel trying to protect cities like Dresden and Cologne.

 

Now, as Germanh went into anti bomber mode they equipped heavier and heavier weapons. Which meant they couldn't dog fight as well. The P51 was never a miracle plane though. It was long range yeah. But it didn't turn better or anything: by that stage most Good German pilots (1944) were dead. When Erich Hartmann went against 51s for the first time he downed 4 in his 109. But then the deathkneel happened: instead of escorting bombers, fighters were ordered to sweep ahead. What happened is they knocked out the 109s and 190d taking off for anti bomber duty. Germany never recovered.

 

 

Mind you, P51s and B-17/24s wee being made faster than 109s and 190s, with better materials, had better pilots, and had better fuel. The 109 was a very old plane by this time. The fact they did so well is a miracle (well... The opposite. This was Nazi Germany we are talking about).

 

if I wasn't on my phone I could- and would- type and essay on this. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

and I will reiterate this, said it a thousand times before. Te P51 was NOT a miracle plane, or a Wonder Plane. It was simply a long range plane that filled a roll that was needed: Escort. It was good, it did the job it was assigned, but in a dogfight it was just another plane.


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hvPALANTIRION #26 Posted 05 December 2015 - 09:16 AM

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View Posttyy, on 04 December 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

don't like the look of these....they fly like heavies but with no cannons to make up for the lowered mobility.....same problem as with the 209v.....you have great speed but you can't keep a target in your sights long enough for the weak guns to take it down....

-But compared to the 209V they have more than 2x the proportional firepower. Instead of tickling they hurt. Think P-51D with more speed, more firepower and less agility.

 

View Posttyy, on 04 December 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

a plane needs at least some turning ability to track a target

-P47's are decent at this, at least compared to HFs. I'd say they are about 1/2 way between a F-4U1 and 410 in turning and controls.

 

View Postoutwardpanicjoe, on 04 December 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

why dont you use sight on your p-51 i just got the p51-A and not sure what modules to put on it :)

-I wanted polish, engine tuning for sure. Then it was a toss-up between sights and improved maneuverability. I chose the latter for two reasons: 1) The P-51D is close enough in turning performance to the 190G and F-4U4 that this small edge would be enough to tip an engagement in my favor, and 2) I find the wider spread of the wing-mounted 50s beneficial in high-speed turnfighting. I have no sights on my 51D or my Mustang I. But I likely would use them on my 51A (if I still had it) because it needs more focused fire due to low DPS. I will use sights on my P-47s, as the focused fire will be necessary for head-to-head and because of the 47's fast closing speed (shorter firing window). They ARE removable for free, so get some and see if you like it more than other options. 

 

View Posttyy, on 04 December 2015 - 11:05 PM, said:

ok let me explain this: the p47's have the speed and agility of heavies...got that? BUT...they have the armament of LF's.....that makes them INFERIOR to every heavy in the game...but the whole 'multi-role' model is of a fighter that can't fight and a ga that can't ga....its a plane that does TWO things badly IF it is an american plane because only soviet and german planes can be OP.... 

-Nonono. The P-47s have better speed AND maneuverability than any same-tier HF. So they will flat-out murder them. The only thing that P-47s will fear are LFs, and only then if the P-47 is low on speed/energy. I would make nearly the same claim for the F-4Us too. But that the P-47 can climb more powerfully as well as more efficiently at a wider range of alt. The P-47 also dives as well as, or better than, and HF. This gives them an easy way to quickly build speed if needed.

 

There are really only 2 weaknesses to the P-47s: Maneuverability vs. most LF and MR, and a lack of alpha for head-to-head passes. So it will be about as far from noob-friendly as a plane can get.

 

View PostHZero, on 05 December 2015 - 12:16 AM, said:

If my math is right, your P-47 either has twenty four machine guns on it or shoots at roughly three times the normal rate.  

 

8 guns x 13.33 rounds per second (800 rounds per minute) x 1.62 oz/round =  172.8 oz/sec = 10.8 lbs/sec

 

And my numbers might be high, that other flying game (that we are not allowed to mention here even though the forum rules say we are allowed to mention it here) lists the burst mass at 9.7 lbs/sec (4.4 kg/sec)

-I was quoting a documentary from some decades ago. Maybe propaganda? Maybe heavier ball ammo, not steel core? They also claim the P-47's 8x50cal put out such a stream of fire that they had (supposedly documented) knocked over a train car.



Porkins_Jr #27 Posted 05 December 2015 - 07:02 PM

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View PostFog_Heavy_Cruiser_Chokai, on 04 December 2015 - 10:59 PM, said:

Short Answer: War Isn't fair. Long Answer: Buckle Up.

 

Air Superority wasn't won prior to Americas entry, but air equality was won in the BoB. Why? British pilots flew again when shot down, Germans didn't. Germans could barely fight due to fuel time, and had to protect bombers.

 

Then come the Americans. They actually almost had to cancel the first offensive of the air due to losses- daylight raiding leads to huge losses, and enemies DONT LIKE IT WHEN YOU BOMB THEIR CITIES. Their are reports of pilots literally flying til out of fuel trying to protect cities like Dresden and Cologne.

 

Now, as Germanh went into anti bomber mode they equipped heavier and heavier weapons. Which meant they couldn't dog fight as well. The P51 was never a miracle plane though. It was long range yeah. But it didn't turn better or anything: by that stage most Good German pilots (1944) were dead. When Erich Hartmann went against 51s for the first time he downed 4 in his 109. But then the deathkneel happened: instead of escorting bombers, fighters were ordered to sweep ahead. What happened is they knocked out the 109s and 190d taking off for anti bomber duty. Germany never recovered.

 

 

Mind you, P51s and B-17/24s wee being made faster than 109s and 190s, with better materials, had better pilots, and had better fuel. The 109 was a very old plane by this time. The fact they did so well is a miracle (well... The opposite. This was Nazi Germany we are talking about).

 

if I wasn't on my phone I could- and would- type and essay on this. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

and I will reiterate this, said it a thousand times before. Te P51 was NOT a miracle plane, or a Wonder Plane. It was simply a long range plane that filled a roll that was needed: Escort. It was good, it did the job it was assigned, but in a dogfight it was just another plane.

 

There were still Luftwaffe planes contesting the skies over Berlin to the very end. The problem was they had almost no fuel.

Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Chokai #28 Posted 07 December 2015 - 07:21 PM

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View PostPorkins_Jr, on 05 December 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

 

There were still Luftwaffe planes contesting the skies over Berlin to the very end. The problem was they had almost no fuel.

True, but besides JG 52 most of the pilots were Scheiße. Young kids and old men with barely a few flight hours thrown in Komets and 109Ks told to defend the Fatherland at all costs. With no fuel. Or spare parts. Lacking ammo in some guns. Basically the Volksturm of the air.


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Pogo68 #29 Posted 07 December 2015 - 09:36 PM

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View Postoutwardpanicjoe, on 04 December 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

View PostFog_Heavy_Cruiser_Chokai, on 04 December 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

I had it before all the additional modules but I would recommend anything that boosts speed. P-51A has four weak guns. Accuracy won't do much. It has a nice top speed though. Basically, it's hard to fix its cons so just boost the pros all you can. No matter what it is inferior to the 109F in, I believe, every attribute. Same for 51D vs 109G.

 

how did Britain and the US every get air superiority will never know lol

 

1600 rounds of .50 have a greater chance of bringing down aircraft than 160 rounds of 20mm.

As one 190 pilot found out when he emptied his FW's magazines into an already badly damaged P-47 and the Jug just kept flying.



GhostPrime #30 Posted 07 December 2015 - 10:58 PM

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WanderingGhost #31 Posted 08 December 2015 - 07:04 PM

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Yeah, they really need to give MG's some range back cause seems like cannons are the only way to go. They have range, damage, and module destruction. MG's get DPS and supposedly accuracy (more like so much volume the misses don't matter). Not exactly what I'd call balanced advantage/disadvantage.

 

View Postoutwardpanicjoe, on 04 December 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

 

how did Britain and the US every get air superiority will never know lol

 

20th says it best on that. A lot of planes are way different than history has them. Throughout the beginning of the war, when it was basically just RAF vs Luftwaffe, it was the 109, then the spitfire, the 109 again, they kept going back and forth as the new models were built. Same thing happened throughout the war when the US joined. There were certain models that in how they were operating could match or beat a 109 maneuvering, last 109 models however appeared to take that edge back. About the only constant was that Japan's planes were lighter and turned better, but usually burst into flames after a few hits. People recall the P-51 as a high altitude fighter and in game get lower to the ground it suffers when it actually performed better because there was actually air. The 190 turns worse than a dump truck when generally, it kept relative pace with the 109 in a turn when set up as a fighter (no extra wing guns, something you can do in game but has garbage turning still).

 

And yeah, when the orders were changed from "escort the bombers" to "strike them where you find them", they were breaking the formations in the air before they formed to attack bombers and destroying them on the ground. And while the UK managed to achieve air superiority over England, mainly during the day, through sheer determination and the skills and dedication of its pilots, a lot of it for the western allies after US entry was the sheer industrial might that Yamamoto even knew from time here that could be put into place. Hence the oft quoted line attributed to him of "All we have done is awoken a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve. The US could just flat out out produce the other nations. The UK did night bombings because of the losses and inability to replace men and aircraft alike. While theres always the question on replacing lost crewman, when it came to aircraft we lose 20 in raids that day,and 40 are on their way to England, 20 are sitting done, and 10 more are on the assembly line basically. As long as our aircraft were enough of a match, we simply had the numbers, especially as we destroyed Germany's industry so they were replacing lost machines slower. The skies it basically became a war of attrition, we could take losses of planes and still have plenty, Germany couldn't.


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hvPALANTIRION #32 Posted 09 December 2015 - 07:22 AM

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View PostPogo68, on 07 December 2015 - 09:36 PM, said:

As one 190 pilot found out when he emptied his FW's magazines into an already badly damaged P-47 and the Jug just kept flying.

-If I remember correctly that P-47 pilot was Gabreski. After his guns were empty the 190 pilot waved his wings as a salute and then flew home.



outwardpanicjoe #33 Posted 17 December 2015 - 10:40 PM

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View PosthvPALANTIRION, on 09 December 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

-If I remember correctly that P-47 pilot was Gabreski. After his guns were empty the 190 pilot waved his wings as a salute and then flew home.

 

yeah it was a german ace trying to get his 40s or so kill he probably wasnt so happy after that lol

FreeFOXMIKE #34 Posted 20 December 2015 - 07:05 PM

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View PosthvPALANTIRION, on 04 December 2015 - 03:55 AM, said:

So I will start by saying that the P-47 is my favorite plane of WWII. So I was really hoping that WG would make it useful but I remained doubtful due to the way 50cal MGs are treated in the game. IRL 32lbs/sec of lead comes from a P-47!

 

I've played the line up to tier 8 now, which is likely 1 tier higher than I will grind when the patch goes live. In short, the P-47 line plays like the F-4U line but with MGs instead of cannons. I am generalizing. To continue generalizing: Both are fast, medium alt, rolls well but can't turn with fighters, and can carry rockets and/or bombs.

 

So what's the difference? They are subtle.

1) The P-47s are damn fast. Incredibly fast. Even slightly faster than the F-4U. And the P-47 holds this advantage at all alts.

2) Climbing? Yeah, big time. The P-47N will boost-climb with a 109Z, and will regain speed faster after the climb. The F-4U is a great climber too, but lags behind slightly in this regard.

3) ALL-alt performance. The P-47s have another advantage over the F-4Us here because they retain their performance proportionally better from a higher ideal alt (2000m) all the way down to sea level. This, with the climb rate, makes the P-47s better at hitting GTs (or GAs) and then returning to the fight.

4) Turning. The F-4U actually turns fairly well, the P-47 doesn't. Both roll well, but the P-47 rolls faster and faster as you go up in tier. Overall the P-47s are similar in maneuverability to the 190 line. You can make someone on your tail miss often, but you will never be able to get your guns on him again until you get range to turn back.

5) Guns. Many guns. Many weak guns. High speed + weak guns vs. GTs = bad. The F-4U line is much better at singling out and killing AAA sites. The 20mm on the F-4Us is also better in nearly every way for aerial combat. The one situation where the P-47 line's guns hold an advantage is chewing up large-HP targets that you can camp behind. Contrary to how I play my 50s with my P-51D I actually put sights on my P-47D and N and it significantly increases effective firepower. I attribute this to the P-47's higher closing speed (reduced firing window) and the P-51's ability to turnfight with more types of planes.

 

I have concluded that the P-47s (and the rest of the line up to tier 8) are best suited to hunting HFs and GAs. Against any MR or LF they need to be used as a HorB&Z, making fast passes at planes already occupied with other targets, then escaping using their speed. Essentially the P-47s are interceptors that happen to be used against GTs too. The F-4Us are true MFs as they can be used against pretty much anything in the sky or on the ground - so long as the pilot knows the pros and cons of the planes involved.

 

p.s. WG, please increase the range of MGs. Cannons should, of course, hold a distinctive edge. But MGs max range should be increased by at least 50m across all tiers.

agree with most all you posted but they should boost  the armor 

admittedly this is the extreme

 

the first 12 min as ref.  but the Hs 126 has 700+ hp now the 47N only has 426 it could use another 150 easy 

 


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