40 replies to this topic

[Killerpopcorn]

macfloam, on 05 August 2015 - 09:04 PM, said:

 

So a team that loses 4-2 and 4-1 would finish higher than a team that loses 4-0 and 4-1?

 

1.3-8

 

2.1-8

 

This would be the order if you are referring to 2 teams playing 2 rounds and losing them both, if a tie still exist I will be keeping track of kills and deaths in battles. That's why I will need everyone to send me the round screen shots after the battle.

[macfloam]

KP,

 

I think you are making it overly complicated, and I don't see much upside in doing so. 

 

First, it makes more sense that all teams knocked out in the same round get paid the same. If you try to adhere to the payout groupings given by Wargaming, you will have a team knocked out in the 2nd round that gets the same prize as a team knocked out in the first round. In fact, you could eliminate a team and end up getting awarded the same amount! When Wargaming released that prize payout, they were obviously thinking that this was a single elimination tournament. In a single elimination tournament, 3rd & 4th are the semi-finals losers. In a double elimination with >32 teams, 3rd knocks out 4th (and thus deserves a bigger prize). 

 

Second, making the rewards based on round eliminated is a heck of a lot easier to track. You won't need to record number of wins or number of kills. 

 

Third, this could actually penalize the teams who receive a bye (since they won't be recording any wins).  

 

Instead, why not just make minor changes to the payout structure and get it approved by Wargaming. I think this is a good solution:

 

	8 Teams	16 Teams	32 Teams	64 Teams
1st	5,000 (1)	5,000 (1)	5,000 (1)	5,000 (1)
2nd	3,200 (1)	3,200 (1)	3,200 (1)	3,200 (1)
3rd	2,000 (1)	2,000 (1)	2,250 (1)	2,250 (1)
1st Round	1,250 (2)	600 (4)	0 (8)	0 (16)
2nd Round	1,625 (2)	900 (4)	0 (8)	0 (16)
3rd Round		1,250 (3)	750 (6)	0 (12)
4th Round		1,625 (2)	1,000 (4)	562 (8)
5th Round			1,250 (2)	1,000 (4)
6th Round			1,750 (1)	1,250 (2)
7th Round				1,750 (1)
TOTAL	127,600	185,600	185,600	185,600

Blue text denotes a change from the originally proposed WG payouts.

 

Note that the total payout remains the same in all cases (and the amounts remain very close to the original amount proposed for each place). 

Edited by macfloam, 07 August 2015 - 06:13 PM.

[Killerpopcorn]

I am going off of what wargamings has provided me as far as prize structure, also you have to remember this was created around only a 1-3place event. I am basing this off of what prize layout I was given in a short amount of time so using a W-L ratio with Kills-Death as a secondary was the next thing apart from restructuring everything again which is not my decision as far as payout.

 

[MARS_REVENANT]

Simple, we are using individual battle wins vs loss represented as a percentage, the same way WG calculates it. If there is still a tie after that we will us kill death ratio, if there is still a tie after that, more than likely the world has just ended, so we don't need to worry about it.

 

We are one the eve of registration close and the tournament starts on Monday, We can spend the entire weekend lawyering every little situation, or we can get into it, have fun and worry about some long shot scenario if it ever comes to it.

Edited by THEMARCO1979, 08 August 2015 - 01:07 AM.

[TheTinyDancer]

I have a concern with how teams are placed on total wins (beyond 1st and 2nd). I had the impression that since Hydra had finished 2nd in the winners bracket, the worst we could finish is in 3rd place. We now are coming up on 2 byes, and Aces Crew and HellenKeller also had byes. By our play in the winners bracket we all earned bye weeks yet HK and AC are both ranked below 2 teams who are already knocked out of the tournament. The way it sits now no payouts are actually being affected (bracket position vs wins or win %), but in the right circumstances a team being knocked out tonight could be in the top four while they finish in the 5th and 6th bracket positions, based on the fact they did not have byes. 

 

I just wanted to bring this to Kpops and Marcos attn before it becomes an issue.

[dityboycom]

farmer93, on 14 August 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

I have a concern with how teams are placed on total wins (beyond 1st and 2nd). I had the impression that since Hydra had finished 2nd in the winners bracket, the worst we could finish is in 3rd place. We now are coming up on 2 byes, and Aces Crew and HellenKeller also had byes. By our play in the winners bracket we all earned bye weeks yet HK and AC are both ranked below 2 teams who are already knocked out of the tournament. The way it sits now no payouts are actually being affected (bracket position vs wins or win %), but in the right circumstances a team being knocked out tonight could be in the top four while they finish in the 5th and 6th bracket positions, based on the fact they did not have byes. 

 

I just wanted to bring this to Kpops and Marcos attn before it becomes an issue.

 

The standings are for tie breakers. Right now you are guaranteed 3rd place in the tournament, because you will either win and making it to the championship making you #2, or lose putting you in #3. So for the two teams that finish 4/5 the one with the most wins will get 4th and the other will get 5th place payout.

 

Which this isn't even correct because 1-5 will not be able to tie.

 

Winners will be #1

Losers will be #2

Losers to the loser will be #3

Loser to the prior round would be #4

 

So the next bracket would be the first place any ties take place, and that's near the 8/9 mark.

 

Actually there won't be any ties.

Edited by dityboycom, 14 August 2015 - 05:04 PM.

[dityboycom]

[macfloam]

This was the point I was trying to make with regards to the payout. It doesn't make a lot of sense for 3rd & 4th to receive the same prize, and ditto for 5th to 8th. Unfortunately, WG released their prize structure based on a single elimination tournament. In a double elimination with 16 teams, the correct groupings are:

 

• 1st
• 2nd
• 3rd
• 4th
• 5th - 6th
• 7th - 8th
• 9th - 12th
• 13th - 16th

 

If Leg'ion Boys loses to Aces Crew, they will receive the same prize as 5divaBogeys, a team they eliminated. Ditto for Wildfyre and Black Legion. Ditto for any team that loses to HYDRA in the loser semi-final. FALO eliminated TSF-2, but will receive the same prize. VULCN eliminated TSF-1, and will receive the same prize. 

 

Since the updated prize structure was released so late (a week before the event was to start), killerpopcorn didn't want to go back to WG and ask for a further revision (possibly fearing that it might seem ungrateful to ask for a change after they so generously increased the prize pool). It was also complicated by the fact that the groupings change based on the number of entries, which of course weren't confirmed until two days before the first battle. In a single elimination, the groupings are always the same (1st, 2nd, 3rd - 4th, 5th - 8th, etc.), but not so for a double elimination. This makes asking for a revised payout structure a little complicated.

[dityboycom]

macfloam, on 14 August 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

This was the point I was trying to make with regards to the payout. It doesn't make a lot of sense for 3rd & 4th to receive the same prize, and ditto for 5th to 8th. Unfortunately, WG released their prize structure based on a single elimination tournament. In a double elimination with 16 teams, the correct groupings are:

 

• 1st
• 2nd
• 3rd
• 4th
• 5th - 6th
• 7th - 8th
• 9th - 12th
• 13th - 16th

 

If Leg'ion Boys loses to Aces Crew, they will receive the same prize as 5divaBogeys, a team they eliminated. Ditto for Wildfyre and Black Legion. Ditto for any team that loses to HYDRA in the loser semi-final. FALO eliminated TSF-2, but will receive the same prize. VULCN eliminated TSF-1, and will receive the same prize. 

 

Since the updated prize structure was released so late (a week before the event was to start), killerpopcorn didn't want to go back to WG and ask for a further revision (possibly fearing that it might seem ungrateful to ask for a change after they so generously increased the prize pool). It was also complicated by the fact that the groupings change based on the number of entries, which of course weren't confirmed until two days before the first battle. In a single elimination, the groupings are always the same (1st, 2nd, 3rd - 4th, 5th - 8th, etc.), but not so for a double elimination. This makes asking for a revised payout structure a little complicated.

 

Meh, it follows the same prize structure as all of WG's weekly tournaments. Qualification brackets with only the top 3 getting the bulk of the award.

[MARS_REVENANT]

farmer93, on 14 August 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

I have a concern with how teams are placed on total wins (beyond 1st and 2nd). I had the impression that since Hydra had finished 2nd in the winners bracket, the worst we could finish is in 3rd place. We now are coming up on 2 byes, and Aces Crew and HellenKeller also had byes. By our play in the winners bracket we all earned bye weeks yet HK and AC are both ranked below 2 teams who are already knocked out of the tournament. The way it sits now no payouts are actually being affected (bracket position vs wins or win %), but in the right circumstances a team being knocked out tonight could be in the top four while they finish in the 5th and 6th bracket positions, based on the fact they did not have byes. 

 

I just wanted to bring this to Kpops and Marcos attn before it becomes an issue.

 

It will be represented as a win loss ratio %, so it doesnt matter about byes. Also, when it is all complete, I dont think a tie is possible above 4th place.

 

The challonge website calculates the standings based on the bracket.  We have no say or control after that. Determining who gets what in the event of a tier is just prize distribution.

 

Initially, win loss ratio, still tied, kill death ratio

Edited by THEMARCO1979, 14 August 2015 - 07:09 PM.

[dityboycom]

THEMARCO1979, on 14 August 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

 

It will be represented as a win loss ratio %, so it doesnt matter about byes. Also, when it is all complete, I dont think a tie is possible above 4th place.

 

The challonge website calculates the standings based on the bracket.  We have no say or control after that. Determining who gets what in the event of a tier is just prize distribution.

 

Initially, win loss ratio, still tied, kill death ratio

 

There is no way to tie.

[MARS_REVENANT]

there are ties right now http://challonge.com...Raid6/standings

 

I dont think you can tier 1-4, but below that there is a chance

Edited by THEMARCO1979, 14 August 2015 - 08:01 PM.

[dityboycom]

THEMARCO1979, on 14 August 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

there are ties right now http://challonge.com...Raid6/standings

 

I dont think you can tier 1-4, but below that there is a chance

 

dityboycom, on 14 August 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

 

I'm confused on why you would do anything different than what I put up there. Are we saying that wins determine the outcome of your standings other than your placement in the tournament?

[dityboycom]

Actually I guess it doesn't matter, because using your system or mine, it comes out the same. You can't tie in relation to the payouts, sure you can tie in you record, but that won't change any payouts. So if you're trying to tier 5-8 in order and 9 - 16 in order, I get it.

[MARS_REVENANT]

well what determines 5th and 6th and 7th and 8th?  We can look at it once it is over.

 

 

[TheTinyDancer]

Marco,

I don't think we need to worry about placement of 3-4,5-8, or 9-16 as payouts don't change. My only concern is whether win% determines standings, or position in the bracket determines standings. There seems to be confusion among people posting in this forum. Some think the current standings are what is showing up on Challonge (bracket position), and others think it's what is showing up on the threads to post daily scores (win%).

 

This whole discussion may become moot by the end of tonight, so it's nothing to stress over.

 

Farmer

[Rob7183]

I think killer and his henchman did a pretty good job, given the constraints they built it under.  Props to you guys for creating a workable event with a minimum of drama

[dityboycom]

THEMARCO1979, on 14 August 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

well what determines 5th and 6th and 7th and 8th?  We can look at it once it is over.

 

 

 

I am assuming thats what the win% bracket is for?

[MARS_REVENANT]

farmer93, on 14 August 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

Marco,

I don't think we need to worry about placement of 3-4,5-8, or 9-16 as payouts don't change. My only concern is whether win% determines standings, or position in the bracket determines standings. There seems to be confusion among people posting in this forum. Some think the current standings are what is showing up on Challonge (bracket position), and others think it's what is showing up on the threads to post daily scores (win%).

 

This whole discussion may become moot by the end of tonight, so it's nothing to stress over.

 

Farmer

 

Maybe I misunderstood your question then.  Basically the challonge website determiners everything except for the initial seeds (round 1) for that we entered all team names into random.org and randomized them a bunch of times.

 

The challonge website determines where teams go in the brackets by us entering the winner of each round.  The website also determines the standings.

 

These are the official brackets: http://challonge.com/AirRaid6

 

Here are the official standings: http://challonge.com...Raid6/standings

 

If there are ties that would affect different payouts then we will use win% from individual battles faught to determine a more refined standings.  If that fails, we will go to kill death ratio.

 

Basically, whatever challonge tells us, is the official result.  But based on the structure of the double elimination bracket, I dont believe there is a possibility of any ties from 1st - 4th.

 

 

Edited by THEMARCO1979, 14 August 2015 - 11:14 PM.

[TheTinyDancer]

Thanks Marco, that answers my question completely. Kudos for the fast responses.