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Rosebud #141 Posted 24 June 2015 - 11:35 PM

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View PostWanderingGhost, on 24 June 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

because how to multi quote things still eludes me -

 

As far as 1.5/6 MM vs NA custom MM Gunlion - Your statement that neither is perfect in regards to our server (as two others have seemingly no issue with the standard one) is accurate, saying that NA custom is better, matter of opinion and perspective. In 1.5/6 once in a while I waited maybe 5 minutes for a match, at the longest, and it was usually 6v6 or more, even some 15v15, and I didn't spend THREE DAYS as the bottom tier at minus two in 3v3 against 3 tier 7's. To me, 1.6 mm was by far better, but for some players, enough to need alteration, it caused an issue. For our population, what we had in 1.4 was as perfect as you got, we at least had SOME safe guards for anyone new playing tier 1, there was some semblance of balancing planes even if flights could stack a team. Why you guys couldn't readjust it more similar to 1.4, which was before massive wait times and most players were at least fine with generally, is beyond me. Somewhere there should be backups of what you had or you should be able to at least take a guess at what you had, and a few of us may even have copies of 1.4 that you could deconstruct for the info. If I have to suffer these long, frustrating stints as -2 for 10, 20, 30 games in a row, I'd at least like a slightly larger team thats a little more balanced and maybe tosses in a couple planes that I can fight on more even terms. I have no qualms admitting I lobbied for some of the 1.6 changes, namely ones like karma and sandbox protection Because A: I don't mind a challenge that's working well against me once in a while, but spending most of my time because I'm going against vastly superior aircraft, especially in my favored tiers in the 5 and 6 range or prior to things going insane 7 in some cases, and B: I get that not everyone learns the same, many on this forum say "watch the death cam, watch the replay at how he beat you", etc but some of us don't learn that way. I can see "yeah, he out turned me, but my plane turns better, how did he out turn me" or "how did he maneuver it that way". Some of us require flight time and the old training room drone bots isn't enough. Even BaB bots just arent that good to really learn how your plane REALLY is vs another plane, bots don't do some of what we do, or don't do it nearly as well. Some of us need to just fly it against other players to get a feel on how it behaves in combat vs other players, and it'd be nice if you get a few games against people that aren't now myself, or lost two, or broslicer, taurig yoda, or the rest of us that have learned things over several thousand battles that give us an incredible edge over newer pilots who just started the game or just bought the plane. Just a couple matches to get to know it without getting flamed in the opening pass.

 

On the WoT upper tiers are near invincible - Granted yeah, I ammo racked it in two shots, I killed a Panther II, a tier 8 medium, in my Tier 5 chaffee, I have other cases of top tier kills in bottom tier tanks, unassisted or not, and it's only for challenges like the personal missions or days, or in the case of right now the last week or so, that RNG is a b**** and giving me absurd bounces (3 rounds bounced off a M3 Stuart that platooned poorly from my Tiger II with the top 105), That I'll load up my Super Pershing or WZ-111 with gold rounds (and still lose credits at times because of a middle finger from RNG) The majority of my work is with AP rounds, the medal for 8 kills in my kv-1, all my top guns, 90% of my high calibers, pretty much any epic medal I have - AP or HE rounds. And I still get crap over there for being a skill less scrub because my winrate is just under 50% (because I'm not the player that carries a team usually) and my overall wn8 isn't at 800 yet. so it's more than possible, and in some cases easier to kill the higher tier tanks, with certain exceptions more based on match up. I bang my head a little less being bottom tier there. course there, I've also now managed to make it to tier 9, several tier 8's and most lines at tier 7 or better so maybe that game really is just easier to an extent.

 

I also have to disagree that moving more toward arcade than sim is killing the game, GT's with multiple pieces and armour values is more sim like, and i had a hand in killing things in 1.5 due to make them far too strong and having a ton of AA guns to rip us to shreds. Adding longer range flak guns has also caused issue related to too strong AA and again, a more sim like feature. Which also becomes a factor in that AA is balanced to 1.5 and 6 MM, where the tier spread was usually +/- 1 unless +/-2 is more common on EU and RU, And even on tier and -1 this AA can shred, -2 forget even trying to get close unless it's a isolated gun and you have rockets. Should a player be able to dive to friendly AA to get some help and maybe if they can survive long enough have massive damage done to the enemy or get them killed, yes. Should AA just butcher planes and be able to decide the fight without either sides planes engaging, no. We should lose the long range AA guns and go back to how it was.

 

I'll agree with Noreaga's comment and +1 in that part of my frustration with this game at the moment is radical changes akin to what I've seen since becoming an alpha tester in Warships and that Persha (and perhaps WG because I'm not sure who has what authorities), seems unable or unwilling to admit mistakes or learn from them, ala 1.5 debaucle of we all tell them "patch is broke, needs work" and they ram it down our throats and a couple months later they get negative feedback on missions, and recall them, but on that one admit they pushed it out despite negative feedback, just like they did on 1.5. That alone shook my confidence in the devs on this game and pushed me away. And if anything, Warcache did more to push me away from this game than bring me back. It felt like the paranoia I saw at "WG/Persha doesn't care about NA" made real seeing missions that were nigh impossible in our MM, let alone for those of us that are at best average players, and 2 weeks to do it? The initial iterations of personal missions in tanks was a flop (and if what was on Rita's blog is true, it's not a wonder basing challenges off of people with 65% win rates when the average 50% and under players, the majority of the population, can't) but are long enough term they changed most to be completable by average players of average or below skill, or for players to improve enough, get good enough tanks, or just get lucky enough to do them. that two weeks on that skill level, the majority of players that got it without paying if any are probably top pilots like what you find in ACES and DRACS and the other clans. As an average player of maybe average skill, what did I manage to get?

 

- Some consumables I don't really care too much about

- Some consumables that I'm terrified are going to break the balance of the game and usher in "use this to win"

- Some equipment of which a fair portion is only usable on lower tiers that I rarely fly, not the mid and higher tiers I actually play

- Some paint schemes that look cool, but would likely only see use in the likes of the air race grand prix or when I'm fine forgoing a camo bonus.

- a discount for a low tier I could have gotten with gold, but given my rationing on it at the time not worth it despite being a collector of planes because I also wouldn't fly it much, and one on the xp-75, which I really wanted but couldn't use because of it's timing and the fact hey, I'm broke and couldn't at that point ask my parents who are just as broke at the moment for money, and my paycheck for the concert I had to work 2 weeks ago doesn't get cut till tomorrow.

-credits that I can go fly a plane, even in this 3v3 nonsense, and make well more of in that match, than what I rather frequently got as my only reward for spending tokens to spin the wheel.

 

So really, for all that work - I more or less got nothing. How it was pitched and all, how it ended up, it was kinda like having a hundred dollar bill dangled in front of you then getting kicked below the belt without getting the cash at least. "great, maybe I can get a shiny new tier 8" "oh well, can't beat those challenges in two weeks, maybe some paint schemes or discounts?" "Oh, so they are just for fun and can't provide any camo and I can't get a discount to save my life, least not one I can take advantage of. But I can get like 7k credits granted I can earn double or triple that in a match."

 

I did not read a single word of this post. I am sorry Wandereingghost but the idea of reading it was too daunting. Possibly a refinement of subject matter to one or two points. It looks like you did a lot of work on it and I am also sure you do not wish for it to go unread.


 


Traurig_Yoda #142 Posted 24 June 2015 - 11:52 PM

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I read bits and pieces, and just one point, this game was never billed as a sim it's always been sold or it's been stated it is an arcade game, so I'm not sure who said it was "moving" to arcade from sim but that's horse hockey it's always been arcade.

arrrgh #143 Posted 25 June 2015 - 01:08 AM

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dityboycom, yes, the size of the population changes the relative difference between good medium and bad players.   So, this clearly makes it harder to compare the games.   BUT, we do have stats from the Russian server which, as WG has stated clearly prove, indisputably, that flights get a much bigger advantage in wowp than in tanks.     Its hard to filter out the effect of player skill from the effect of flights, as most high % players have a very high percentage of games flighted up. 

 

Also, your understanding of tanks is completely incorrect.   For example  'invulnerable tanks'.....have you never heard of gold ammo?, flanking, etc.  Even a complete noob can understand that shooting the side or rear works better, or buy a few gold rounds for credit.  Also, in tanks a noob has a much higher chance of facing another noob in battle.   In planes, proportionally, most of the time noobs are facing experts.

 

All of you guys also missed another key point.   Tanks can shoot as far as they can see.  Thus, generally, you have more support from the rest of the team.  
WOWP, has short ranged, directional weapons.  Thus flights can more easily isolate a plane and destroy it for no cost.

 

In tanks, lets give an is3 example.  4 shots for one is3 to kill another is3.    Assuming equally skilled players,  a platoon of 3 is3's can kill that 1 is3 while taking 1-2 shots of damage.  So, that platoon of 3, has taken 25-50% of an is3 in damage, to kill the other is3.
In WOWP, a flight of 3 vs 1, will typically take close to zero damage killing the one.   This senario happens far more often in planes, as its much easier for players to become separated.
 

Also, in Tanks, when you are trying to win via capping, you are actually very vulnerable..   You are exposed, and its very easy to reset you.   Yes, in some specific cases it can force the enemy to attack at a disadvantage, but that's usually the exception.

 

In WOWP, having a domination advantage is ALWAYS a massive advantage.   You can just fly around in safety, until they are forced to hit GT, and you have an easy ambush.

 



losttwo #144 Posted 25 June 2015 - 11:13 AM

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View Postarrrgh, on 24 June 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

dityboycom, yes, the size of the population changes the relative difference between good medium and bad players.   So, this clearly makes it harder to compare the games.   BUT, we do have stats from the Russian server which, as WG has stated clearly prove, indisputably, that flights get a much bigger advantage in wowp than in tanks.     Its hard to filter out the effect of player skill from the effect of flights, as most high % players have a very high percentage of games flighted up. 

 

Also, your understanding of tanks is completely incorrect.   For example  'invulnerable tanks'.....have you never heard of gold ammo?, flanking, etc.  Even a complete noob can understand that shooting the side or rear works better, or buy a few gold rounds for credit.  Also, in tanks a noob has a much higher chance of facing another noob in battle.   In planes, proportionally, most of the time noobs are facing experts.

 

All of you guys also missed another key point.   Tanks can shoot as far as they can see.  Thus, generally, you have more support from the rest of the team.  
WOWP, has short ranged, directional weapons.  Thus flights can more easily isolate a plane and destroy it for no cost.

 

In tanks, lets give an is3 example.  4 shots for one is3 to kill another is3.    Assuming equally skilled players,  a platoon of 3 is3's can kill that 1 is3 while taking 1-2 shots of damage.  So, that platoon of 3, has taken 25-50% of an is3 in damage, to kill the other is3.
In WOWP, a flight of 3 vs 1, will typically take close to zero damage killing the one.   This senario happens far more often in planes, as its much easier for players to become separated.
 

Also, in Tanks, when you are trying to win via capping, you are actually very vulnerable..   You are exposed, and its very easy to reset you.   Yes, in some specific cases it can force the enemy to attack at a disadvantage, but that's usually the exception.

 

In WOWP, having a domination advantage is ALWAYS a massive advantage.   You can just fly around in safety, until they are forced to hit GT, and you have an easy ambush.

 

 

quoted for to much common sense

dityboycom #145 Posted 25 June 2015 - 12:44 PM

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View Postarrrgh, on 24 June 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

dityboycom, yes, the size of the population changes the relative difference between good medium and bad players.   So, this clearly makes it harder to compare the games.   BUT, we do have stats from the Russian server which, as WG has stated clearly prove, indisputably, that flights get a much bigger advantage in wowp than in tanks.     Its hard to filter out the effect of player skill from the effect of flights, as most high % players have a very high percentage of games flighted up. 

 

Also, your understanding of tanks is completely incorrect.   For example  'invulnerable tanks'.....have you never heard of gold ammo?, flanking, etc.  Even a complete noob can understand that shooting the side or rear works better, or buy a few gold rounds for credit.  Also, in tanks a noob has a much higher chance of facing another noob in battle.   In planes, proportionally, most of the time noobs are facing experts.

 

All of you guys also missed another key point.   Tanks can shoot as far as they can see.  Thus, generally, you have more support from the rest of the team.  
WOWP, has short ranged, directional weapons.  Thus flights can more easily isolate a plane and destroy it for no cost.

 

In tanks, lets give an is3 example.  4 shots for one is3 to kill another is3.    Assuming equally skilled players,  a platoon of 3 is3's can kill that 1 is3 while taking 1-2 shots of damage.  So, that platoon of 3, has taken 25-50% of an is3 in damage, to kill the other is3.
In WOWP, a flight of 3 vs 1, will typically take close to zero damage killing the one.   This senario happens far more often in planes, as its much easier for players to become separated.
 

Also, in Tanks, when you are trying to win via capping, you are actually very vulnerable..   You are exposed, and its very easy to reset you.   Yes, in some specific cases it can force the enemy to attack at a disadvantage, but that's usually the exception.

 

In WOWP, having a domination advantage is ALWAYS a massive advantage.   You can just fly around in safety, until they are forced to hit GT, and you have an easy ambush.

 

 

The tanks argument was not here to compare them, I already clarified that earlier, was merely using it as an example.

 

Planes cover more ground faster, they don't need to shoot as far as they can see I can close 2000 meters in a matter of seconds to help an ally.

 

I play tanks, and even with the use of gold rounds and shooting in the side, and behind these "invulnerable tanks" the rounds do not penetrate unless your crew is moderately talented and actually hits exactly where you are aiming. Tanks is a game of knowledge not skill, skill can be gathered by mods who walk you through the entire game. Planes is a game of skill and knowledge, because even if you know how to win, if you can't execute, you won't win.

 

No one was talking about winning by capping, I played several tank games last night, and like I said earlier experienced players set up shop in TD's and sit back and wait for the other less experienced team to rush into their rounds. Killing the entire team before they're even spotted.

 

In general your post missed the entire atmosphere of the conversation, which unfortunately due to your tardiness was already expired to begin with.



Disgruntled_WoWP_Vet #146 Posted 25 June 2015 - 12:54 PM

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View Postarrrgh, on 25 June 2015 - 01:08 AM, said:

 BUT, we do have stats from the Russian server which, as WG has stated clearly prove, indisputably, that flights get a much bigger advantage in wowp than in tanks.   

 

 

The statistics that were used to justify the flight nerf were comparing 1 team with flights vs 1 team with NO flights. That's a useless comparison. I wonder what the numbers are when comparing teams that both have equal numbers of flights... probably closer to 50-50.


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dityboycom #147 Posted 25 June 2015 - 01:21 PM

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View Postarrrgh, on 24 June 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

dityboycom, yes, the size of the population changes the relative difference between good medium and bad players.   So, this clearly makes it harder to compare the games.   BUT, we do have stats from the Russian server which, as WG has stated clearly prove, indisputably, that flights get a much bigger advantage in wowp than in tanks.     Its hard to filter out the effect of player skill from the effect of flights, as most high % players have a very high percentage of games flighted up....

Sorry, somehow I missed this until Antiledo point it out. Keep in mind that flights were not reduced due to the stated reasons put forth by WG Public Relations department; but, we had THE developer who codes the game tell us the sole reason they changed the number of players in a flight was due to them being unable to get the auto flight feature to function correctly, and they realized in doing so it would benefit the community that is upset with the current state of flights. Also, keep in mind what Antiledo said, the statistics they provided to justify the change due to "PR" were presented in a way to support the cause, when it very well could have presented in a similar manner to thwart such a senesless change.

 

Logic dictates if flights win 70% of their games against teams with no flights, minimize the setting in which this equation occurs. Ensure that MM prioritizes flights against other flights, but in doing so don't make it so when in a flight you are punished with long wait times. Simple fix that anyone that plays this game could code with a coding hand book. So the WG statistics of 70% of 3 man flights winning against a team with no flights, and 60% of 2 man flights winning against a team with no flights would be simplified in the fact that the majority of the time a flight would be playing against another flight, so when one wins, one loses.

 

The reason they put out the PR post offering an explanation because they knew it was the vocal minority that visits the forums and reads developer streams who would be educated on the actual reason of the change. Like when something sensitive in the government gets leaked, it doesn't make it any less sensitive, just because someone knows it doesn't mean everyone knows it.

 

This is not a thread about flights though, so lets not have that argument here. Just understand that flights seem more prevalent to success in this title than tanks because Wargaming only listed the statistics of flights success against no other flight, they did not care to list the percentage of games neglected to have a flight on both teams. Also, as said before lets be honest, no one cared about flights as a whole, they only cared about specific flights whom they felt they had no chance against.



Merc85 #148 Posted 25 June 2015 - 01:55 PM

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View Postarrrgh, on 24 June 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

dityboycom, yes, the size of the population changes the relative difference between good medium and bad players.   So, this clearly makes it harder to compare the games.   BUT, we do have stats from the Russian server which, as WG has stated clearly prove, indisputably, that flights get a much bigger advantage in wowp than in tanks.     Its hard to filter out the effect of player skill from the effect of flights, as most high % players have a very high percentage of games flighted up. 

 

Also, your understanding of tanks is completely incorrect.   For example  'invulnerable tanks'.....have you never heard of gold ammo?, flanking, etc.  Even a complete noob can understand that shooting the side or rear works better, or buy a few gold rounds for credit.  Also, in tanks a noob has a much higher chance of facing another noob in battle.   In planes, proportionally, most of the time noobs are facing experts.

 

All of you guys also missed another key point.   Tanks can shoot as far as they can see.  Thus, generally, you have more support from the rest of the team.  
WOWP, has short ranged, directional weapons.  Thus flights can more easily isolate a plane and destroy it for no cost.

 

In tanks, lets give an is3 example.  4 shots for one is3 to kill another is3.    Assuming equally skilled players,  a platoon of 3 is3's can kill that 1 is3 while taking 1-2 shots of damage.  So, that platoon of 3, has taken 25-50% of an is3 in damage, to kill the other is3.
In WOWP, a flight of 3 vs 1, will typically take close to zero damage killing the one.   This senario happens far more often in planes, as its much easier for players to become separated.
 

Also, in Tanks, when you are trying to win via capping, you are actually very vulnerable..   You are exposed, and its very easy to reset you.   Yes, in some specific cases it can force the enemy to attack at a disadvantage, but that's usually the exception.

 

In WOWP, having a domination advantage is ALWAYS a massive advantage.   You can just fly around in safety, until they are forced to hit GT, and you have an easy ambush.

 

 

Excellent analysis and comments.....thanks.

Tonzzo #149 Posted 26 June 2015 - 08:44 PM

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Remember when.....  Flights of 2 ruled the game.... Flights....  Flights..... Flights.....

 

Soon they will suggest that anytime you get within 100 meters of a teammate that you self destruct.....  That will put a stop to all that terrible teamwork.....:angry:



 


Pertinacious #150 Posted 27 June 2015 - 01:47 AM

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Yeah, enough talks about flights. It's done. 

 


_Laserguided_ #151 Posted 27 June 2015 - 02:36 AM

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View Postdityboycom, on 25 June 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

I play tanks, and even with the use of gold rounds and shooting in the side, and behind these "invulnerable tanks" the rounds do not penetrate unless your crew is moderately talented and actually hits exactly where you are aiming. Tanks is a game of knowledge not skill, skill can be gathered by mods who walk you through the entire game. Planes is a game of skill and knowledge, because even if you know how to win, if you can't execute, you won't win.

 

They pen most of the time if you wait till your are fully aimed and don't shoot the tracks with HEAT rounds.... :P  I think there is more skill to Tanks than you might think.   Same goes for Tanks. If you can't execute you don't win regardless of your knowledge.



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ParanoiaXtreme_PRX #152 Posted 27 June 2015 - 06:01 PM

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View Postbroslicer, on 22 June 2015 - 06:58 PM, said:

Remember when WG staff would actually play this game?

 

yup!

dawson112299 #153 Posted 27 June 2015 - 06:55 PM

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I remember all that stuff,

 

 

         I just cant remember the last time I logged in to play, or post in the forums!!!



K_Otic1 #154 Posted 28 June 2015 - 05:57 AM

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So Gunlion as you can see everyone is sick of 3 v 3 battles we are all done with that.  I think a 2 minute wait in any game is an acceptable time period.  The 2 tier spread is ok as long as there are 20 people in game.

The 3 things to decide for the mm are quite simple.   Winning pct   Kills per tier/game  Battles played  If these get matched up evenly that's all we need.

When there are 10 per side anything can happen and often does.  This could be one of the greatest games and so far it's been blah  Once 1.5 hit and then 1.6 man it's hard to play without getting completely frustrated.



Stieger #155 Posted 28 June 2015 - 10:53 AM

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Hi guys I feel your pain I can see the frustration in your post , if ya noticed I haven't played but a few games since CBT, to many reasons not to play. I didn't want the added frustrations Back then they didn't listen to us and now you see the results of the game. If they go back in history and read the forums during CBT they will know. I for 1 have no interest in this game I did at one time I worked for it to succeed but these people just don't get it. I'm surprised its still running here in NA. Its my belief they really don't know what each AC is capable of, but that's my opinion. Good Luck in convincing them.

Gang_Starr #156 Posted 03 July 2015 - 11:41 PM

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View Postgunlion, on 22 June 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

 

Remember when I said "in July?"

 

Because I do. I remember it very clearly. I very clearly remember saying, "Hold me to tournaments starting in July, and every month thereafter." I remember it so clearly I've blocked out the dates of each tournament in my monthly calendar. Speaking of calendars...it's June.

 

*In my Sojo voice*: "YEAHHHHHHH"

Tenks


Dreamer_Z #157 Posted 04 July 2015 - 12:17 AM

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Remember that guy name Gunlion.

Bandet #158 Posted 04 July 2015 - 12:28 AM

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Never 'erd of 'em.

To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment.


Autolycus7 #159 Posted 04 July 2015 - 06:49 AM

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View PostHerr_Oberst_Nu, on 23 June 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

View Postspittoon, on 22 June 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

 

thank you!!!!!!    

 

Spittooooooon!!! It's been forever! Good seeing you again!!

 

Ahhh! A Nu! Shoot it quit before I-- *explodes*



Florida_Man_ #160 Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:30 PM

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We remember.

    MAKE WOWP GREAT AGAIN :honoring:





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