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Attacker Training and Battle Squadron "Immelmann"

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MagusGerhardt #1 Posted 19 February 2015 - 12:41 AM

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Attacker Training and Battle Squadron

 

Introduction

 

Attacker Training and Battle Squadron Immelmann is a forum/ingame social group, centered around enthusiasts of Attacker class aircraft with focus placed upon the new German attacker line featured in Warplanes patch 1.7.  This is not meant to be an exclusion of enthusiasts of IL series attackers; in fact such pilots are more than welcome here as attacker pilots of the two branches will benefit greatly from cooperation and strategizing to maximize battle results by playing off the strengths of the two lines of aircraft.  It is the purpose of this forum group to provide a foundation for excellence in piloting and a pursuit of cooperation between the two lines when they are allies on the same team or flighted up together.

 

This group is being founded as a result of the longtime absence of Quesnel from the Attack Aircraft Alliance, and I would rather place my focus on a new association rather than usurp what Quesnel had created with great enthusiam.  That being said, much of what will be done here will seem a duplication of ground already covered by the Alliance; that is on purpose as the same needs and wants for training, association and education will be needed for this new line of aircraft, and it is my hope that this thread becomes the focal point for the gathering of this information.  I reiterate that it was Quesnel who first came up with an idea like this and this is meant as an homage to the groundwork he laid out before me, not a usurpation of it.

 

What the Battle Squadron is about:

 

Shoot and Tell:  Have you had an outstanding victory or a heartbreaking nailbiter battle end in defeat and want to share it with others?  This is the place to do so.  Please remember the forum "Name and Shame" rules and keep things in good taste.  Written stories, screenshots, battle replays and videos you have made are all welcome here!

 

Tip, tricks and techniques:  Want to share your trade secrets? Post up all of the things that have worked for you as well as things that proved disastrous and you want to warn others against trying.  Be a part of a discussion with others, offer up constructive criticism or ask questions if something displayed by someone else needs further explanation for you to try it yourself.

 

Social Networking:  It is my intent to set up an in-game channel for real-time socialization, flight creation and general chatting.

Join:  Immelmann Squadron chat channel in game!

 

Mentoring:  Once more of us have greater experience with these aircraft it should be possible to find pilot instructors here to help you climb up the learning curve as you make your way up the tech line.

 

Lounge: Talk about all things Attack Aircraft related, either ingame or in the real world. Discussions could range from how Attack Aircraft were first used all the way to future game releases.

Join: Immelmann Squadron chat channel in-game!

 

Freedom of Association: Membership in Clans is not a barrier of "membership", all members of all clans are welcome to share this space as neutral ground where the esprit de corps of the attacker pilot binds us all together.  German and Russian enthusiasts are both welcome to congregate here, as well as those who choose other Nation's attacker lines as they are introduced.

 

:honoring: Good hunting! :honoring:

 


Edited by MagusGerhardt, 20 February 2015 - 06:05 AM.

 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787


ArrowZ_ #2 Posted 19 February 2015 - 02:32 AM

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Cool bro.

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MagusGerhardt #3 Posted 19 February 2015 - 03:01 AM

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This post will be edited in the future with use of spoilers to catalogue all videos, regardless if they were published as TbM or posted here by someone else.

 

Edit:

In-game Lounge and discussion channel has now been founded, search for and join "Immelmann Squadron"!  :playing:


Edited by MagusGerhardt, 02 March 2015 - 09:35 AM.

 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787


MiikLL #4 Posted 19 February 2015 - 03:40 AM

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Hello all...


 

Thank you for doing this. I will definitely be visiting the in game Lounge channel.

 

 

 

I'll start things off...:)
 

I have watched videos and streams of the 1.7 test server. Visually it seems that the new German GA planes don't seem to be suffering from the air-to-air dispersion penalties on their guns that the Russian GA line does, granted I understand that a lot of the German planes have their weapons mounted centerline. I was just looking for the opinions of flyers that have been able to fly the German GA planes.


 

:honoring:

 


 


Edited by MiikLL, 19 February 2015 - 04:08 AM.


ArrowZ_ #5 Posted 19 February 2015 - 04:10 AM

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View PostMagusGerhardt, on 19 February 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

Thanks!  Not nearly as cool as your flip out in the General Game Discussion forum.

 

Dang, bro.  Tell 'em how you really feel.  :popcorn:

 

I know right. I guess that's what it takes to get someone in WG to respond.

 

Good luck with uh... whatever this is :great:


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MagusGerhardt #6 Posted 19 February 2015 - 04:39 AM

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Here's my initial feelings on each of the aircraft to be featured in the patch, shamelessly cut and pasted from my post in the 1.7 CT Feedback thread.

 

TIER IV - FW-189C Uhu :  All around enjoyable experience to fly this ugly bird, and I do mean U-G-L-Y IT AIN'T GOT NO ALIBI.  It handily counters Soviet GAs of the same tier while still having a decent GA punch on GTs.  I would still prefer that this aircraft be turned into a tier IV premium equivalent to the LBSh and be replaced with a Ju.87D mounting dual 7.92s and dual 20mms with perhaps two or four SC50s as an outboard option.  The Stuka G starts off in a stock configuration that a tier IV Stuka could build up to; it would basically be a tier IV Ha.137 with a tailgunner.

Verdict:  Fine as-is, but would prefer a different plane.

 

TIER V - Ju.87 G Stuka :  Love this plane; I tried the dual 37s and found them very effective against ground targets, but the low RoF makes them undesirable for A2A if you anticipate taking on that role.  The Stuka G stil performs admirably against soft ground targets and very well against aircraft when mounting all top modules but retaining the stock 20mm cannon.  Amendment:  With a few battles on the 1.7 CT without horrendous lag I tried the 37s again and found them quite effective in the A2A role, and they seem to have had their RoF increased as well as the rate at which they cool down from an overheated condition.  The 37mm guns are what you should fly with in this thing; the degradation to your speed and turning is noticeable only if you dogfight with another Ju.87G (D, actually) that is only mounting the 20mms.

Verdict:  Excellent, don't change a thing.

 

Tier V Henschel Hs.129:   This thing is a dog.  There is literally no reason to fly it unless you like dying with no opportunity to fight back.  It's slower than a Stuka (And that's saying something) and turns WORSE than a Stuka, while having no rear gun defense of its own.  The only thing that makes it stand out is the MK-101 it can carry, but the Bf.110C-6 is a superior gun platform for that weapon.  The Henschel needs help, and a lot of it, or it will just never be flown.  WG will not benefit from people free xping their way past it because they will be flying the Ju.87G Stuka instead.

Verdict:  Horrible, endangered species before 1.7 goes live.

 

TIER VI - Junkers Ju.88 P : Love this plane, the guns on the stock configuration are the same as the Stuka G's 37mms, but they are mounted centerline and much more useful A2A as a result.  The cannons are even more effective against GTs as an additional bonus.  The Ju.88P turns surprisingly well for its role and has a beautiful amount of boost.  On the downside the gunner's weapon is weak and has a terrible range of fire, the Junkers bomber conversion fits in just fine.

Verdict:  Fine as-is, don't change a thing.

 

TIER VII - Messerschmitt Me.265 :  I don't think I can express how much I love this plane.  Finally I have not one, but two German batplane flying wings and this first one really threw me for a loop.  I can believe it was a derivative work of the Me.210 and 410 projects as it handles like a speedy low to mid alt heavy fighter, horizontal boom and zoom is its bread and butter and it dishes out slash and dash attacks on ILs with near impunity.  There is a tradeoff to be made, however.  If you want to concentrate on air to air combat, don't mount the MK108 cannons; that will put your bullet spread all over the map.  If you want to concentrate on your attacker role, you'll need the MK108s as the bombload of two SC250s is anemic at best.  The tailgunner seemed weak to me, but it was mostly shooting at other 265s and ILs, so I think it's fine.  This aircraft really lays the groundwork for everything you fly after it; they all have the same style and tendencies.  Heavy fighter boost, turn radius and hitting power, with the tailgun and armor of a GA without the giant hp pool of an IL.

Verdict:  Fine as-is, don't change a thing.

 

TIER VIII - Messerschmitt Me.329 :  Gott in Heimel what an aircraft.  It's beautiful, it carries big guns, it's fast as hell and handles like a heavy fighter.  The only shortcoming this aircraft has is the bomb capacity.  It was planned for 1,000 kg and we have only 500kg on it?  These bombs are completely insufficient to take down the ground targets an attacker is expected to assault; the only things they are useful against are soft targets that would usually be attacked by multirole fighters, and even then only if the target objects are packed tightly together because of the nerfed bomb blast radius.  All other aspects of the aircraft are great, but the bomb issue becomes an issue here and only gets worse as you continue up the line.

Verdict:  Good, could be great with another look at bomb load.

 

TIER IX - Messerschmitt Me.P1099B-2 :  So glad to have this aircraft back; I felt like I was back in Closed Beta again, and giddy as a schoolboy.  This aircraft is so much fun to fly that I actually forgot how much I detest the MK108 cannons when it was stock.  The 50mm was a nonstarter for me; flew with it once and never again, but all was forgiven when I got my hands on the MK103s.  The cannons in all configurations do well against soft targets, but once again this attacker is held back by the anemic bomb load.  Capacity is now up to 1k kg in bombs, but since they are each tier V SC250s most tier IX and X ground targets will just laugh at them.  No complaints about any other aspect of this aircraft.

Verdict:  Good, could be great with different bombs or choice to mount wGr-210 rockets.

 

TIER X - Messerschmitt Me.P1102B:  Finally had a good time in this aircraft; I flew it before in Closed Beta when I had no idea what I was doing and my experience with it today was like comparing night and day.  It can only carry the HGIII's horrible horrible guns, but as I predicted their horrible muzzle velocity didn't matter because I didn't have to lead my targets as much as you do in the HGIII.  The addition of the dual tailgun was a good bit of foresight and it seemed appreciably strong; a half health J7W insisted on staying on my tail and I had a rear cover medal in seconds.  The bombs, however, have gone from questionable at tier VII to bad at tier VIII to horrible at tier IX and inexcusable at tier X.  You might as well strap cherry bombs underneath the wings for all the good those SC250s will do you.

Verdict:  Good, could be great with different bombs or choice to mount wGr-210 rockets.


 

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MagusGerhardt #7 Posted 19 February 2015 - 06:12 AM

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View PostMiikLL, on 18 February 2015 - 08:40 PM, said:

I have watched videos and streams of the 1.7 test server. Visually it seems that the new German GA planes don't seem to be suffering from the air-to-air dispersion penalties on their guns that the Russian GA line does, granted I understand that a lot of the German planes have their weapons mounted centerline. I was just looking for the opinions of flyers that have been able to fly the German GA planes.

 

The placement of the guns in a tight firing pattern close to the center of the fuselage does have a lot to do with the perceived decreased effect of attacker gun accuracy with these aircraft.

 

I can tell you from experience that their guns do have a bit of dispersion on them, very possibly just as much as the IL's.  It is difficult to tell because this increased dispersion actually plays to your advantage a bit with these aircraft.  With guns massed centerline and a good amount of dispersion you actually fire out a small to large circle of fire depending on range to target.  It's rather like firing at something with a shotgun; with the amount of turning ability these things have, if your target is slow or moving predictably it is not difficult to lay constant fire into them.

 

You won't have laser accuracy until medium to close range, but who needs it with the individual DPS of these guns and very good chance of landing about one of four shots on target? :playing:

 

Dispersion affects the IL in a much worse way; with wing mounted weapons you end up with an oblong cloud of fire with low chances of hitting a moving target beyond 550 meters.  I speak more for the low to mid tiers (VII) for these; my personal experience with the Sturmoviks doesn't go beyond the IL-10, and that was back during Beta.  :unsure:

 

Good hunting!  :honoring:


 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787


Tophatfire #8 Posted 19 February 2015 - 06:32 AM

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I'll be following this as I'm curious to see how this line plays out.

 

After playing on the test server though, I have to admit I'm a little concerned and have some lingering questions.  It seems like many of the new German GAA might best be employed in an IL-hunting role with GTs as a secondary effort.  A potential problem is that a HF might be able to perform the same function but still retain greater altitude performance and thus versatility, which calls into question the whole reason for being for this line.

 

This ought to be interesting...



MagusGerhardt #9 Posted 19 February 2015 - 06:49 AM

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View PostRock18, on 18 February 2015 - 11:32 PM, said:

I'll be following this as I'm curious to see how this line plays out.

 

After playing on the test server though, I have to admit I'm a little concerned and have some lingering questions.  It seems like many of the new German GAA might best be employed in an IL-hunting role with GTs as a secondary effort.  A potential problem is that a HF might be able to perform the same function but still retain greater altitude performance and thus versatility, which calls into question the whole reason for being for this line.

 

This ought to be interesting...

 

The firepower of these new attackers is just fine; actually superior to the ILs of equal tier in many cases.  They just don't have the bomb or rocket capacity for fast Supremacy point acquisition that the ILs can do until they run out of ordnance.  In that respect, you are right; they hunt ILs first and get GTs en route to the interception point and after the red triangle is dealt with.  

 

The comparison to heavy fighters is pretty apt, actually.  These attackers struck me as being a "missing link" between the attackers currently in game and the current German heavy fighters.  If run light these new attackers (the ones with two engines, anyway) have the boost duration of a German heavy and starting with the Me.265 at tier VII I was able to cruise at med-high altitude, deep into the red zone and so long as I had a member of the team keeping my tail clear so I didn't have to spend my time full evasive, I could keep a decent speed up and affect the dogfight with a horizontal boom and zoom.

 

There's a lot of ideas I have about how these aircraft might be used in different scenarios and team makeups; only time and experience will tell me which doctrines are gold and which are wrong headed.  :coin:

 


 

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MagusGerhardt #10 Posted 19 February 2015 - 06:58 AM

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View PostRock18, on 18 February 2015 - 11:32 PM, said:

 A potential problem is that a HF might be able to perform the same function but still retain greater altitude performance and thus versatility, which calls into question the whole reason for being for this line.

 

The greatest difference I can see, aside from the attacker invariably (Tier VII and above) having stronger armament, armor, hitpoints, tailgun and close to equal speed is pretty simple.  The heavy fighter devours an enemy team from the top down.

 

The attackers go from the bottom up; eliminate the attacker competition, then graze on GTs or climb to assist the team; whichever is your pleasure.


Edited by MagusGerhardt, 19 February 2015 - 06:59 AM.

 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787


losttwo #11 Posted 19 February 2015 - 12:12 PM

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Bravo

MagusGerhardt #12 Posted 20 February 2015 - 05:03 PM

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Well, after a night of nonstop flying in the new line I must say that I love the Fw.189C Uhu at tier IV and the Me.265 Shreck at tier VII.  They both handle exactly as they did on the CT, but without the constant 200-300 lag they are even more capable aircraft now.  For example; took my Junkers Ju.88P out for it's maiden flight today, completely stock, and got three aircraft kills and four ground targets in her.  The first was an Fw.189C that I bounced while they were focused on GTs and the other two aircraft shot down were light fighters that came down to dogfight with me.  Wunderbar!  :playing:

 

Researched both the Junkers Ju.87G Kanonenvogel and the Hs.129 last night off the Fw.189C and free xp'ed the Junkers Ju.88P so I could get the trio of them for the Kasserine Pass discount.

 

This reminds me; I should list out the nicknames (Historical and otherwise) that I've come up with for each aircraft in the line so future aficionados don't have to refer to them by a series of numbers and letters only.

 

Here's what I have come up with suitable to the character of each plane when I had to make one up.  Let me know what you think; if there are better suggestions I'll change em around.  :great:

 

Focke Wulf Fw.189C Uhu  

(Eagle Owl, Historical nickname)

 

Henschel Hs.129B Dodo  

(My nickname; this thing is awful for all the same reasons as the IL-2 and has no bombs for self defense)

 

Junkers Ju.87D-G Kanonenvogel

(Cannon Bird, Historical nickname)

 

Junkers Ju.88P Panzerknacker

(Armor Cracker, one of several historical nicknames)

 

Messerschmitt Me.265 Schreck

(Terror, my nickname)

 

Messerschmitt Me.329 Geist

(Spirit, my nickname)

 

Messerschmitt Me.1099B Wyvern

(My nickname, couldn't call it Dragon)

 

Messerschmitt Me.P1102B Drache

(Dragon, my nickname)

 

Good hunting!  :honoring:


Edited by MagusGerhardt, 20 February 2015 - 07:31 PM.

 

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Traurig_Yoda #13 Posted 20 February 2015 - 08:14 PM

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Most excellent! this was definitely a fun line on the ct and hunt IL's is an excellent idea for this line :trollface:

Azis_ #14 Posted 20 February 2015 - 08:49 PM

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I never have been much of a Ground Pounder and have fewer than 50 battles in the only two I have, HA 137/T3 and the IL premium/T5.

At first look of the new line I was able to research, purchase and equip the Terror 265 :) Before I knew it I had 41 battles in this beast, most all 3v3, but lots of different mixes of team/enemy planes.

It feels and flies to me like a pregnant Beaufighter :trollface: and had to be the first night I was NOT criticized for flying in my comfort zone mid to low altitude. I had few chances to fly with other GA on my team but several battles with lots of them on the red side. It really is a great IL hunter. Also able to clear an area of AA out of the GT's to help my fighters and myself in case the battle strayed a bit beyond our own AA.

Energy management seems awesome as well and I don't recall stalling once unless it was intentional, and the thing does an awesome stall turn. I could easily pull up for a loop or immelmann at will it seemed.

I agree the bombs are almost ornaments but might well be good defense as I work on that skill more.

The Rear gun is a bit getting used to using it. I got pretty proficient using my rear in my Beau, and about 10% of my kills are rear cover. I was not having much luck with the rear in the 265 at first until I looked a bit closer at the mounting of the rear guns. I started trying more using pitch to aim at tailgaters than roll as the Beau, and I started picking up some rearcovers. There is a Tailgunner in the crew but I have no idea where he might sit in this thing :unsure:

 

Even though my W/R so far is a bit abysmal at 41%/41 battles, I could not stop hitting the battle button!

 

Looking forward to adding the chat and get some old fashioned schooling.

 

:honoring:


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MagusGerhardt #15 Posted 20 February 2015 - 09:12 PM

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View PostAzis_, on 20 February 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

There is a Tailgunner in the crew but I have no idea where he might sit in this thing :unsure:

 

Looking forward to adding the chat and get some old fashioned schooling.

 

:honoring:

 

The tailgunner sits in the same position as the one in the Me.410 and Me.210 (as this aircraft's design is actually a derivative work of those two half-siblings) right behind the pilot, facing the rear of the aircraft.

 

The tailguns, like the guns on the 410, 210, 1099 and 1102 are remotely operated by a complicated targeting device that faces the gunner's position in the crew cabin.  The tier IX and X in the Soviet Ilyushin series of attackers has a similar setup; gunner behind pilot controls remote turret on back of plane.


 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787


Azis_ #16 Posted 20 February 2015 - 10:39 PM

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View PostMagusGerhardt, on 20 February 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

 

The tailgunner sits in the same position as the one in the Me.410 and Me.210 (as this aircraft's design is actually a derivative work of those two half-siblings) right behind the pilot, facing the rear of the aircraft.

 

The tailguns, like the guns on the 410, 210, 1099 and 1102 are remotely operated by a complicated targeting device that faces the gunner's position in the crew cabin.  The tier IX and X in the Soviet Ilyushin series of attackers has a similar setup; gunner behind pilot controls remote turret on back of plane.

 

I see that now thanks.

It looks like each turret has some lateral movement as well, however, if shooting sideways, only able to fire half of the four guns. That would explain a bit.


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MagusGerhardt #17 Posted 20 February 2015 - 11:02 PM

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View PostAzis_, on 20 February 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

 

I see that now thanks.

It looks like each turret has some lateral movement as well, however, if shooting sideways, only able to fire half of the four guns. That would explain a bit.

 

Yes; the heaviest hits you'll get with that TG will be directly behind and above, behind, and behind and below your Schreck.  I'll produce a Guide to the Me.265 when I can.  For now, I'll try to tide everyone over with this.  :playing:


 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787


Azis_ #18 Posted 20 February 2015 - 11:59 PM

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I think they might have fixed my WoWp replay drop box.

 

http://wowpflights.com/replays/download/570/

 

I was able to view without downloading, just need the game NOT to be open.


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Hardstrike #19 Posted 21 February 2015 - 08:07 PM

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Great video Magus!  I honestly believe that the IL's are going to need their bombs and rockets just to keep up with the top gunned Ju87/88's in GT destruction!
Fly crooked and shoot straight.

MagusGerhardt #20 Posted 23 February 2015 - 04:08 AM

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View PostHardstrike, on 21 February 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Great video Magus!  I honestly believe that the IL's are going to need their bombs and rockets just to keep up with the top gunned Ju87/88's in GT destruction!

 

Thanks!  I plan to archive every German GA-centered video I produce here, as I did the Russian ones in Q's Alliance thread.

 

Speaking of which, here's two featuring the first German Attacker ever featured in-game:  The Blohm und Voss Ha.137 V-5, which appears as Ha.137 on team rosters.  This was given away October 2014 as part of the week of "Mystery Madness".  Each day there was a new mission to complete, and every one of them had to be done in order to earn the "Bee Vee" as I call it.

 

The production of these two videos came shortly thereafter.  There is a beginning to all things, and this aircraft's introduction into the game was the beginning of the full line realized in patch 1.7

 

 

 

Good hunting!  :honoring:


 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787






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