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Proposal for v2 of new MM


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Poll: did you play 0.4.1? If so, did you like it's MM better than the one now? (15 members have cast votes)

Did you play in 0.4.1 CBT?

  1. No (3 votes [20.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  2. Yes (12 votes [80.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 80.00%

Did you like 0.4.1 MM (balanced but quick) or the current one (ultra fast but it's a Yahtzee toss for balance)?

  1. 0.4.1 was better (9 votes [60.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 60.00%

  2. Current one is better. (6 votes [40.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

If you haven't played before launch, do you believe this current MM is best since launch or was another? Comment below which you thought was best.

  1. Current MM is best post launch. (9 votes [60.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 60.00%

  2. Another POST-LAUNCH MM was better. I'll post it in comments. (6 votes [40.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

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SkywhaleExpress #41 Posted 19 January 2015 - 01:31 AM

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I added a poll. 

 

So that everyone is clear, I trully believe that this current MM, from the evidence I've seen (livestreams/screenshots), is the best POST-LAUNCH. But I also feel the best compromise between speed and balance was 4.1 in CBT. 



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Chuck_norris10 #42 Posted 19 January 2015 - 01:41 AM

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Any suggestions should be implemented in a test server first,then people would stop worrying that the mm will change again from what it is now. 

I think most of us can live with this MM for awhile and wont mind if they take some time to properly test any new suggestions like Alex is making.

I never played on the test server but I know lot's here do.

 


 

 


 

ArrowZ_ #43 Posted 19 January 2015 - 01:46 AM

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Well to answer your third one: The 1.4 MM did a much better job in filling battles. But it wasn't balanced & people cried. Which brought us the 1.5 MM woot! Those whiners must be proud :medal:

Edited by ArrowZ_, 19 January 2015 - 01:47 AM.

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SkywhaleExpress #44 Posted 19 January 2015 - 01:53 AM

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View PostArrowZ_, on 18 January 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

Well to answer your third one: The 1.4 MM did a much better job in filling battles. But it wasn't balanced & people cried. Which brought us the 1.5 MM woot! Those whiners must be proud :medal:

LOL all too true. The crying actually started before you were around, which is why matches progressively got slower and slower as they tried to implement 1 tier spread to appease the "everyone wins" crowd.

View PostChuck_norris10, on 18 January 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

Any suggestions should be implemented in a test server first,then people would stop worrying that the mm will change again from what it is now. 

I think most of us can live with this MM for awhile and wont mind if they take some time to properly test any new suggestions like Alex is making.

I never played on the test server but I know lot's here do.

 

Unfortunately, ours is now a special MM, and so any "tests" would have to be made to our server only... Seeing as apparently the EU and/or just the RU actually love the 1.5/1.6 MM..... So, we'd have to live-test it with hot fixes... Since the servers that actually matter to Persha are not for an MM that accounts for low pop.



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losttwo #45 Posted 19 January 2015 - 02:12 AM

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View PostChuck_norris10, on 18 January 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

Humbling experience getting wasted 3 games in a row in my bsh by a tsh-3.:D

I'm enjoying the mm right now because planes are not pigeon holed into a certain role.

People are flying them in ways they did not before the patch and it's quite refreshing and has made for many crazy battles.

WOW can't believe I am agreeing with this pilots.

View PostJohnny_Wishbone, on 18 January 2015 - 05:48 PM, said:

Leave it alone, Alex.  There are so many degrees of restriction in your tier scheme alone that implementing only THAT would make for worse wait times than we had before.

 

As someone else said, the 1.6.3 MM was very fair, but we just don't have the population for it.

 

View PostTraurig_Yoda, on 18 January 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

 

I agree I love the MM as it is.

 

I am completely enjoying this rendition of match maker..it is far better than farmers dot com.

If you implement a protection for new players then we have excluded them from NORMAL battle.

Not allowing them into NORMAL battle will teach them nothing but bad habits.

Also at what battle count do you place the restriction since most new players rush into tier 5 in less than a day.

People need to learn to play as the game stands now. Learn the different advantages versus each tier higher and lower.

An IL -10 taking out an IL-20 or IL- 40 or a ME262  is a good lesson.

As a Community we need to show more video's of good play style and team work.

We need to show that certain things can be done when everyone is crying that it is improbable.

We need to attract the new player to the forums and the video's we post.

 

SO LEAVE THE CURRENT MATCH MAKER ALONE and let US take responsibility for new player retention.



BrushWolf #46 Posted 19 January 2015 - 02:23 AM

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View PostSkywhaleExpress, on 18 January 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

 

 

Here's my simplified proposal for making balanced* matches while still keeping the queue at less than 3 minutes.

 

1. We need to have the "so-called" sandbox. Where we went wrong with it, however, was that we made it for all the lower tiers of 1-5. Instead, it should be for the first tier and then start at occasionally to commonly seeing two tiers higher.

 

The problem as I see it with trying to protect the noobs is the methods available actually make them more susceptible to being seal clubbed by players that only play low tiers.

 

2. We need to balance flights and aircraft... Not by skill or battle count, but by themselves. two flights of 3, they go to separate teams. If one team has two IL's the other does... If the one team has three heavies, that too... Etc.

 

I agree on this but only when there are enough players on to accomplish this without making players wait excessive periods of time

 

3. We need to make exceptions only for when a player has been in the queue for more than 3 minutes, they get the very next match.

 

I agree.

 

4. Tiers that face each other should be as follows:

 

I vs I and II tops.

II can obviously see ones, but can also see III's and occasionally IV's.

III can see III and IV and occasionally see V's.

IV's see IVs and V's and occasionally VI's. 

V's can see V's and VI's and sometimes VII's. 

VI's can see VI and VII and occasionally no more than 3 tier VIII's. Must have 3 VIII on their team too.

VII can see VII and VIII and occasionally 3 IX's, as long as their team has 3 IX's.

VIII is unprotected. By this tier, it should regularly see up to tier 10, AS long as both teams have 10's.

 

Reverting to a modified to treat mulit-role as fighters 1.4 would accomplish this. There was noob protection in that 1.4 that did not impact que times so points1 & 2 are covered.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

Comments in the quote.

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SkywhaleExpress #47 Posted 19 January 2015 - 03:38 AM

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I think my solution makes it to where there really isn't a "protected" tier, except that 1's don't see 3's. That was always the only tier that everyone agreed was a for sure noob ground. A very vocal few whined and moaned about 2's fighting 4's. But then again that was back when the AO182 and every other German Heavy were actually... Well, HEAVY and weren't high altitude fast climb rate antihistoric vehicles that they are now. 

 

Man even less sizable and far less vocal crowd complained about 3's vs. 5's at a time when 3's could actually play at monoplane altitudes AND always out turned the 5s. 

 

1 tier spread whiners came in afterward and sought it out for every tier and eventually, 6+ months later got it in. Then by 1.5, we had nearly zero two tier spread matches.



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SkywhaleExpress #48 Posted 19 January 2015 - 03:52 AM

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Of course, my idea is in no means perfect, it just brings us back to a better MM than we a) have and b) had for last 6 months. 


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BrushWolf #49 Posted 19 January 2015 - 06:12 AM

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View PostSkywhaleExpress, on 18 January 2015 - 09:38 PM, said:

I think my solution makes it to where there really isn't a "protected" tier, except that 1's don't see 3's. That was always the only tier that everyone agreed was a for sure noob ground. A very vocal few whined and moaned about 2's fighting 4's. But then again that was back when the AO182 and every other German Heavy were actually... Well, HEAVY and weren't high altitude fast climb rate antihistoric vehicles that they are now. 

 

Man even less sizable and far less vocal crowd complained about 3's vs. 5's at a time when 3's could actually play at monoplane altitudes AND always out turned the 5s. 

 

1 tier spread whiners came in afterward and sought it out for every tier and eventually, 6+ months later got it in. Then by 1.5, we had nearly zero two tier spread matches.

 

Tier 1's didn't see tier 3 in the 1.4 MM. The main reason I have for keeping tier 1's in normal matchmaking is it gives the real newbies some protection from the seal clubbers as the seal clubbers are fodder for the tier 3's. I always thought that the MM should be adaptable enough to make full 2 and even 1 tier matches when the population warranted but the 1 tier sub sized matches we were getting 99% of the time were garbage. I do want to fine tune this MM but I don't want to wait like I am in a Soviet butcher shop with empty shelves like we were before.


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SkywhaleExpress #50 Posted 19 January 2015 - 08:50 AM

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View PostBrushWolf, on 19 January 2015 - 12:12 AM, said:

 

Tier 1's didn't see tier 3 in the 1.4 MM. The main reason I have for keeping tier 1's in normal matchmaking is it gives the real newbies some protection from the seal clubbers as the seal clubbers are fodder for the tier 3's. I always thought that the MM should be adaptable enough to make full 2 and even 1 tier matches when the population warranted but the 1 tier sub sized matches we were getting 99% of the time were garbage. I do want to fine tune this MM but I don't want to wait like I am in a Soviet butcher shop with empty shelves like we were before.

I'm speaking of 4.1... As in CBT 0.4.1, where we had less than two minute wait time and had fuller and more balanced matches. 

Why is it so difficult for people or differentiate ZERO POINT FOUR POINT ONE and ONE POINT FOUR? One was in CBT and was a well rounded MM (1's didn't see 3's and 2's were split 33/33/33 on seeing only 1's , seeing 3's, and seeing 3 AND 4.) MM with relative balance.

 

1.4 was still a phase one 1 tier spread disaster.



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Traurig_Yoda #51 Posted 19 January 2015 - 01:21 PM

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The only suggestion I like is increasing the minimum to 4 or 5 we cannot afford another issue that extends our queue time and even adjusting the minimum with this low population might be too much.

tahee59 #52 Posted 19 January 2015 - 02:01 PM

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Just leave it be , and try it before you want to change it.

md4dodge #53 Posted 19 January 2015 - 02:51 PM

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I actually like the current MM.  The queue times are great. Sure, there's gonna be those smaller, unbalanced matches, but what about a little challenge.  With the population suffering as it is, this is the best MM so far IMO.  I'm not a CBT, so can't compare to anything pre-release.  Since release, however, the best MM was 1.4.  (up until 1.5)  With all the population loss from 1.5 - 1.6,  this was WG's simple and quick fix... remove all the restrictions and speed up the queue.  A great way to bring us back to playing and getting more than 2 - 3 battles / hour.  

Instead of trying to change what we asked for, let's just see what 1.7 brings.  They've promised a new line,  two new maps,  a revamped training room, AND (possibly) a better MM.  I, for one, can't wait to try the open test.  
Just my $.02

 


 


Traurig_Yoda #54 Posted 19 January 2015 - 04:18 PM

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View Postmd4dodge, on 19 January 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

I actually like the current MM.  The queue times are great. Sure, there's gonna be those smaller, unbalanced matches, but what about a little challenge.  With the population suffering as it is, this is the best MM so far IMO.  I'm not a CBT, so can't compare to anything pre-release.  Since release, however, the best MM was 1.4.  (up until 1.5)  With all the population loss from 1.5 - 1.6,  this was WG's simple and quick fix... remove all the restrictions and speed up the queue.  A great way to bring us back to playing and getting more than 2 - 3 battles / hour.  

Instead of trying to change what we asked for, let's just see what 1.7 brings.  They've promised a new line,  two new maps,  a revamped training room, AND (possibly) a better MM.  I, for one, can't wait to try the open test.  
Just my $.02

 

 

Actually I like the perspective of folks with nothing to compare too prior as that is what new guys will be contending with.  +1

GeorgePatton #55 Posted 19 January 2015 - 04:32 PM

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View PostBrushWolf, on 18 January 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

Comments in the quote.
 
Reverting to a modified to treat mulit-role as fighters 1.4 would accomplish this. There was noob protection in that 1.4 that did not impact queue times so points 1 & 2 are covered.

 

I did a study of the MM and found 'noob protection' to be non-existent. I got thrown against a guy with over 10k battles on my 17th battle in a totally new account.

 

 

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Traurig_Yoda #56 Posted 19 January 2015 - 05:04 PM

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I think battle count was the wrong stat to use, re-run study using the personal rating in lieu of battle count if they ever put noob protection back, or test on EU/RU, I've seen some 10k+ battle count players with terribly low Personal Ratings:

Random sample: (names omitted to avoid name/shame violation);

 

Battles Fought: 15,170    Victories/Battles: 48.24%  Personal Rating: 3,605

Battles Fought: 951         Victories/Battles: 63.62%  Personal Rating: 4,656

Battles Fought: 551         Victories/Battles: 58.08%  Personal Rating: 4,296

Battles Fought: 64           Victories/Battles: 54.69%  Personal Rating: 3,196

Battles Fought: 12,590    Victories/Battles: 63.57%  Personal Rating: 8,432

Battles Fought: 670         Victories/Battles: 51.79%  Personal Rating: 3,422

Battles Fought: 759         Victories/Battles: 50.99%  Personal Rating: 3,420

Battles Fought: 36           Victories/Battles: 71.88%  Personal Rating: 2,992


Edited by Traurig_Yoda, 19 January 2015 - 05:09 PM.


BrushWolf #57 Posted 19 January 2015 - 07:18 PM

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View PostSkywhaleExpress, on 19 January 2015 - 02:50 AM, said:

I'm speaking of 4.1... As in CBT 0.4.1, where we had less than two minute wait time and had fuller and more balanced matches. 

Why is it so difficult for people or differentiate ZERO POINT FOUR POINT ONE and ONE POINT FOUR? One was in CBT and was a well rounded MM (1's didn't see 3's and 2's were split 33/33/33 on seeing only 1's , seeing 3's, and seeing 3 AND 4.) MM with relative balance.

 

1.4 was still a phase one 1 tier spread disaster.

 

The 1.4 MM wasn't really much different from the closed beta MM which is why I brought that up. All but the new players since 1.5 are familiar with that MM while there are many that were not in closed beta and will not be familiar with that one.

 

View PostGeorgePatton, on 19 January 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

 

 

I did a study of the MM and found 'noob protection' to be non-existent. I got thrown against a guy with over 10k battles on my 17th battle in a totally new account.

 

 

Cheers!
Glenn

 

How long did you wait for that one? I found that eventually the 1.6 MM would get desperate and throw completely mismatched planes and match counts together after enough time had passed which for me usually happened after at least 10 minutes of waiting.

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SkywhaleExpress #58 Posted 19 January 2015 - 08:17 PM

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Brush...you're still not comprehending that the 0.4.1 MM was way different, as it had no noob protection by battle count and had none of that "1 tier spread priority." And while 1.4 had queues lasting above 5 minutes, 0.4.1 rarely had one last longer than 2. 

 

I know people were haggard by long queue times.... But do you really honestly like seeing the following, regularly, just so you can get 10 second queues?:::::

 

Team 1: 2x Tier 7 , 5x tier 6, 8x tier 5  --- 1 IL

Team 2: 6x tier 6, 9x tier 5     ----- 3 IL's at tier 6 and NO 7's

 

I'm seeing those in people's livestreams and their screenshots....

 

Theres good quick and then there's stupid quick. This is stupid quick.... BUT.....

Its a lot better than 5-30 minute queues. 

 

My proposal just gives the best of both speed and balance... AND it was already ib existence and proven to work effectively.



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Traurig_Yoda #59 Posted 19 January 2015 - 08:26 PM

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View PostSkywhaleExpress, on 19 January 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

Brush...you're still not comprehending that the 0.4.1 MM was way different, as it had no noob protection by battle count and had none of that "1 tier spread priority." And while 1.4 had queues lasting above 5 minutes, 0.4.1 rarely had one last longer than 2. 

 

I know people were haggard by long queue times.... But do you really honestly like seeing the following, regularly, just so you can get 10 second queues?:::::

 

Team 1: 2x Tier 7 , 5x tier 6, 8x tier 5  --- 1 IL

Team 2: 6x tier 6, 9x tier 5     ----- 3 IL's at tier 6 and NO 7's

 

I'm seeing those in people's livestreams and their screenshots....

 

Theres good quick and then there's stupid quick. This is stupid quick.... BUT.....

Its a lot better than 5-30 minute queues. 

 

My proposal just gives the best of both speed and balance... AND it was already ib existence and proven to work effectively.

I say leave it alone, there are very few complaints vs what we had with long queues, the other FACT is we have no idea how your suggestions will fair with this low population, and it's not worth the risk.



SkywhaleExpress #60 Posted 19 January 2015 - 08:29 PM

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View PostTraurig_Yoda, on 19 January 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

I say leave it alone, there are very few complaints vs what we had with long queues, the other FACT is we have no idea how your suggestions will fair with this low population, and it's not worth the risk.

 

have you even read anything I posted? We had a LOWER POPULATION in 0.4.1 and that MM pulled balanced and quick matches.


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