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Joystick & Situational Awareness - Need advice


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barbeerian #1 Posted 18 October 2014 - 06:49 PM

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So I've been playing this game with Mouse/KB since I began but I've been yearning to learn how to fly with a joystick for quite some time. I decided to go grab a Logitech extreme 3D pro a few days ago and I've been playing around with it in bot battles to try to get the hang of it. One thing I'm really struggling with is lack of situational awareness when flying now.

 

It's a two part problem for me. One is being so used to flying with the camera locked on the horizon not my aircraft, and generally how the mouse camera sways 'ahead' of where my aircraft is pointed in tight turns as opposed to how the joystick cam is always locked dead ahead. I'm finding much more difficult to visually track my target in turnfights. I do try to keep an eye on my radar/map but they can only provide so much input.

 

The other problem is scanning the battlefield in general. I make prodigious use of my RMB and free look to scan around and evaluate what's going on around me in mouse mode. The hat switch just isn't quite the same since it's locked into a few preset directions. I've played around binding the hat buttons to a few different directions but I definitely miss just being to look in the exact direction I want to look. Quite often with the hat I just can't point it where I want to see. I'm really only finding the hat useful for scanning behind my tail to see who & what is chasing me. Using my mouse with my left hand to free look in joystick mode just isn't really an option due to how the stuff on my desk is laid out, and I don't have time to take my hand off the joystick in the middle of a dogfight to use the mouse to scan either. I did try binding free look to a joystick button but of course it does nothing. I was really hoping I could free look with the stick but it only does control input for the aircraft no matter what, unless of course I failed to notice some setting that will allow that.

 

So I'm looking for advice from joystick users, specifically 3D pro users, on how you maintain your awareness in the battle. Advice from people who've made the switch from Mouse/KB to joystick would be especially helpful since you probably went through a similar struggle.



Chuck_norris10 #2 Posted 18 October 2014 - 07:04 PM

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When you have someone in your sights....hit F for sniper mode,get some serious hits in and F out and regain altitude for another run. in sniper mode with a 3d logitech set up like mine as soon as the reticule go's from medium to large size the enemy is in the kill zone for a quick burst in sniper mode.

 


 

 


 

CrayolaCrayon #3 Posted 18 October 2014 - 07:27 PM

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Cycle through targets and use snap to target to look around as to what is going on. You are also going to have to track things more in your head and predict enemy flight paths to anticipate their movements.

FastAttack #4 Posted 18 October 2014 - 07:47 PM

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View PostCrayolaCrayon, on 18 October 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Cycle through targets and use snap to target to look around as to what is going on. You are also going to have to track things more in your head and predict enemy flight paths to anticipate their movements.

 

what crayola said

 

if you want to look here is what I posted before as my 101 vids:

 

http://forum.worldof...rgy-management/

 

 



barbeerian #5 Posted 18 October 2014 - 08:16 PM

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Didn't even think about Snap to target (never had to use it with the mouse). It's definitely extremely handy for stick flying. Gets a tad disorienting at times but I'll just have to get used to that. I took a peek at those vids too just to watch some joystick flight in action, that was pretty helpful too just seeing how you were going about scanning and maintaining awareness.

 

Thanks guys.



CrayolaCrayon #6 Posted 18 October 2014 - 09:00 PM

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Here is a video from this morning where you can see how I'm looking around at what is going on around me.

 



barbeerian #7 Posted 19 October 2014 - 01:35 PM

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Thank you very much for putting up the vid, the advice is helping me a lot.

buddha222 #8 Posted 20 October 2014 - 02:12 AM

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I have that Joystick, and use the minimap and radar to get an idea of the altitude and flight paths of targets. 

 

I then use the 4 buttons on the top for targeting - select next Air Target, select next Ground Target, select Target in Screen Center, and Snap Camera to Target.

 

This way you can cycle through air or ground targets, or target what you are looking at.

 

Once you have your target locked, snap 'keeps your head on a swivel,' through your maneuvers until they are in your main screen. Much like Crayola's video.

 

I also changed the forward and back positions on the hat switch to look up and down. 

 

 


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barbeerian #9 Posted 20 October 2014 - 08:18 PM

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View Postbuddha222, on 20 October 2014 - 03:12 AM, said:

I have that Joystick, and use the minimap and radar to get an idea of the altitude and flight paths of targets. 

 

I then use the 4 buttons on the top for targeting - select next Air Target, select next Ground Target, select Target in Screen Center, and Snap Camera to Target.

 

This way you can cycle through air or ground targets, or target what you are looking at.

 

Once you have your target locked, snap 'keeps your head on a swivel,' through your maneuvers until they are in your main screen. Much like Crayola's video.

 

I also changed the forward and back positions on the hat switch to look up and down. 

 

 

 

That happens to be almost exactly how I ended up setting my buttons after reading their advice and watching the vids, except my Snap is on the thumb trigger so it's easier for me to spam the hell out of it. It's working pretty well, though still I must admit I'd love if Free Look simply worked with the joystick as well. Then I'd have snap for while I'm engaged and free look for when I'm less active and want to survey the battlefield before I decide how I want to engage.

buddha222 #10 Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:11 AM

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View Postbarbeerian, on 20 October 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

 

That happens to be almost exactly how I ended up setting my buttons ...

 

Maybe it's universal - 20 years ago it was how I set up my joystick in Tie Fighter, and I've used similar in every flying game I've played.


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FastAttack #11 Posted 21 October 2014 - 10:29 AM

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View Postbarbeerian, on 20 October 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

 

That happens to be almost exactly how I ended up setting my buttons after reading their advice and watching the vids, except my Snap is on the thumb trigger so it's easier for me to spam the hell out of it. It's working pretty well, though still I must admit I'd love if Free Look simply worked with the joystick as well. Then I'd have snap for while I'm engaged and free look for when I'm less active and want to survey the battlefield before I decide how I want to engage.

 

funny enough i play with "stock settings" since closed beta until 1.5 where i remapped everything to be back the old way before they touched the control schemes again.

 



SOJO #12 Posted 22 October 2014 - 03:30 PM

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View Postbarbeerian, on 18 October 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

So I've been playing this game with Mouse/KB since I began but I've been yearning to learn how to fly with a joystick for quite some time. I decided to go grab a Logitech extreme 3D pro a few days ago and I've been playing around with it in bot battles to try to get the hang of it. One thing I'm really struggling with is lack of situational awareness when flying now.

 

It's a two part problem for me. One is being so used to flying with the camera locked on the horizon not my aircraft, and generally how the mouse camera sways 'ahead' of where my aircraft is pointed in tight turns as opposed to how the joystick cam is always locked dead ahead. I'm finding much more difficult to visually track my target in turnfights. I do try to keep an eye on my radar/map but they can only provide so much input.

 

The other problem is scanning the battlefield in general. I make prodigious use of my RMB and free look to scan around and evaluate what's going on around me in mouse mode. The hat switch just isn't quite the same since it's locked into a few preset directions. I've played around binding the hat buttons to a few different directions but I definitely miss just being to look in the exact direction I want to look. Quite often with the hat I just can't point it where I want to see. I'm really only finding the hat useful for scanning behind my tail to see who & what is chasing me. Using my mouse with my left hand to free look in joystick mode just isn't really an option due to how the stuff on my desk is laid out, and I don't have time to take my hand off the joystick in the middle of a dogfight to use the mouse to scan either. I did try binding free look to a joystick button but of course it does nothing. I was really hoping I could free look with the stick but it only does control input for the aircraft no matter what, unless of course I failed to notice some setting that will allow that.

 

So I'm looking for advice from joystick users, specifically 3D pro users, on how you maintain your awareness in the battle. Advice from people who've made the switch from Mouse/KB to joystick would be especially helpful since you probably went through a similar struggle.

I love my joystick, with that being said, using the joystick I rely heavily on my radar and my map. I have grown so accustomed to them the multitasking aspect is second nature. When I’m tangled in a fur ball, crowded skies, multiple enemy aircraft around me, I rely heavily on the radar. The radar will display enemies with in “What I would like to call” (Targets of close proximity and opportunity) when I observe a depiction of a small triangle (Enemy) with the radar, I realize that the small triangle represents an enemy at a much higher altitude, obviously larger they are a viable target at my current altitude. Enemies closer to the center of my radar, are the closest. My laymen explanation of this is not to insult anyone’s intelligence, it’s an educational reminder.

 

The map is great for pre-battle reconnaissance, orientation, and situational awareness of the battlefield it’s an ever changing visual depiction of the battlefield i.e. strategic. I discovered that the best pilots in the game are the best multitaskers.  Observing radar and map at the same time more than compensates for my situational awareness. I guess you can call it fighting/flying with your instruments and instinctual prowess.

 

When I am flying unthreatened, time to time, I do use my Microsoft Optical Trackball Mouse and scan the area for targets of opportunity, A trackball (to me) is awesome for flight  sims, gaming in general sliding a mouse back and forth, back and forth is utterly annoying, Oh my mouse fell off the corner of my desk, let me pick that up…..

 

I do use an old joystick, but it’s still the most awesome joystick for flight sims (IMHO) “Microsoft Force Feedback 2” what makes this joystick so great is it fluid equal resistance applied to your hand movements, OK, basically it's caliber driven no springs (Power Supply needed), it grants you a nice even flow to get on target, remain on target without clumsy compensation, you don’t have to fight to stay on target. Unfortunately Microsoft does not make this joystick anymore but I did see a few on Amazon for sell.

 

Sorry for the long wind dissertation, Barbeerian, Keep using the joystick, when you can fly fluid, non-choppy without sliding into turns with the use of keys, etc. your immersion into the game will feel  more realistic, Thank goodness most flyers of the day (IRL) didn’t have to operate their aircraft with a keyboard and mouse, how annoying that would have been.

 

Good Luck

 

Sojo


Edited by Sojo, 22 October 2014 - 07:20 PM.

MALICE_AT_BIRTH.png

 

 

                                                    


Zapperguy #13 Posted 22 October 2014 - 07:04 PM

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I use the same Logitech. I have my "switch to next target" assigned to the button on the side that your thumb rests on - makes for quick & effortless cycling through targets. As for situational awareness (SA)... WG gives you completely unrealistic SA by default by having a 3rd person view. I fly with a 1st-person-only camera mod. It completely removes the 3rd person aspect and "puts you in the pilot's seat" as far as perspective. I use the mini-map to note general enemy locations, and I have the radar set to the smallest range for nearby planes, both friendly & enemy. Listening to engine noise when flying side-by-side with another plane is crucial for SA and avoiding rams. While all this sounds like (and is) a significant self-imposed handicap, it creates a level of immersion that 3rd person will never offer regardless of control device used (IMO). Real pilots don't control their planes from above and behind them, why should we? That immersion lends to increased SA (again IMO). I won't play this game without a 1st person mod. When I started in CBT, first person was a camera view offered by WG and they took it away with a subsequent patch. I got used to the game with it and can't tolerate flying without it.

Good Luck with whatever control/camera scheme you settle on.

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Sopwith_ #14 Posted 22 October 2014 - 08:23 PM

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1st person view is available to me by simply scrolling my mouse wheel...? I would prefer a true 1st person view or "cockpit" view to give some reference of just how close I am to the ground for instance. I am using the same logitech joy and could not and have not used KB/M. I can see how snap to target is and can be very useful but as mentioned here, it can be disorienting and would take some getting used to. When in a turn battle I rely heavily on the targeted image in the lower left (not sure what that window is called) along with the red arrow on screen and the minimap. It does take some time for all of that info to instinctively paint the whole picture, but once it does happen, I can't imagine how anyone would fly without a joy :)

DrSinister #15 Posted 22 October 2014 - 08:35 PM

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View PostSopwith_, on 22 October 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

1st person view is available to me by simply scrolling my mouse wheel...? I would prefer a true 1st person view or "cockpit" view to give some reference of just how close I am to the ground for instance. I am using the same logitech joy and could not and have not used KB/M. I can see how snap to target is and can be very useful but as mentioned here, it can be disorienting and would take some getting used to. When in a turn battle I rely heavily on the targeted image in the lower left (not sure what that window is called) along with the red arrow on screen and the minimap. It does take some time for all of that info to instinctively paint the whole picture, but once it does happen, I can't imagine how anyone would fly without a joy :)

 

That 1st person view is the "Sniper View," it is a Zoomed in 1st person view, the one that Zapperguy is talking about and the same as my Camera Mod is we use an Unzoomed 1st person view.  This use to be available back in Closed Beta but WG got rid of it at the same time that WoT Mouse control scheme (default mouse) came about.


Edited by DrSinister, 22 October 2014 - 08:36 PM.


Sopwith_ #16 Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:13 PM

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View PostDrSinister, on 22 October 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

 

That 1st person view is the "Sniper View," it is a Zoomed in 1st person view, the one that Zapperguy is talking about and the same as my Camera Mod is we use an Unzoomed 1st person view.  This use to be available back in Closed Beta but WG got rid of it at the same time that WoT Mouse control scheme (default mouse) came about.

 

Ahhhhk...that makes sense then, I can see there would be a difference....thx

SkyWolf__WM #17 Posted 23 October 2014 - 02:09 AM

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This game is made to be Mouseketeer friendly. More so than J/S.
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Azis_ #18 Posted 23 October 2014 - 07:20 AM

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View PostSkyWolf__WM, on 22 October 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

This game is made to be Mouseketeer friendly. More so than J/S.

 

I guess that puts me at a disadvantage then :facepalm:
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RedSpartacus #19 Posted 23 October 2014 - 12:42 PM

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Every pilot should sit in the cockpit not 100 feet away from his plane.

Edited by RedSpartacus, 23 October 2014 - 12:43 PM.

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Olaffe #20 Posted 23 October 2014 - 08:01 PM

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I agree with all of your logic for 1st person view, however I can't make it work for me.  I look at the radar, the map, mouse free look, and the sides with the top hat.  It's still nothing like sitting in an actual plane and looking around with my head on a swivel.   When the plane is in front of me, I a bigger view around it, and less in front.  How do you guys make 1st person work for you?






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