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[spoiler] what the Italian tech tree could look like

Italy Fiat Macchi Reggiane Savoia-Marchetti Breda IMAM Caproni CANSA CRDA

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J311yfish #21 Posted 07 September 2016 - 02:36 PM

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View PostJ311yfish, on 23 May 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

"...in 1942, the Air Ministry carried out independent studies to convert the standard Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario, Italy's finest fighter of the war, into a high-performance, mixed-power variant.  In addition to the normal nose-mounted piston engine, the fighter was to have an auxiliary Fiat A.20 engine housed in a widened rear fuselage and exhausting beneath the tail surfaces.  The A.20 engine was to drive two centrifugal superchargers, one to supercharge the nose engine and the other to supply compressed air to a combustion chamber and exhaust nozzle in the tail.  Weight and performance calculations were made for two distinct variants, one designated the Re.2005 R (for Reazione) and the other the Re.2005 SF (named after the project officers, Majors Sarracino and Ferri).  The Re.2005 R's maximum speed was estimated at 730 km/h (454 mph); although it reached the final drawing board stage in July 1943, it was never completed." (Kay, 249)

 

More on the 'jet-powered' Reggiane Re.2005:

 

"On [11/20/1942] Guidonia suggested adding a jet propulsion device to an RE 2005, whose top speed would then reach 750 kph.  The extra weight however would entail removing wing guns and the armored pilot seat.  The variant was sometimes identified as 'SF' from the surnames of its proponents, Majors Marcello Sarracino and Antonio Ferri of the engineering branch.  Tests were made with a rig powered by a Fiat A.20 engine, the results being summed up in a report of [07/07/1943] which also touched upon the structural changes to be made to the RE 2005 airframe.  In [06/1944] an Allied investigation team summed up the project rather bluntly: 'The first proposal put forward suggested the use of a 12 cylinder liquid cooled 370 hp, 5500 rpm engine driving two centrifugal compressors, one for supercharging the main DB.605 unit together with the auxiliary engine, the second for supplying the reaction propulsion.  The total additional weight was estimated at 1000 lb (approx.).  The complication of this installation, involving in the more finalized design, the installation of a Fiat A-20 engine behind the pilot, indicates that lacking a suitably high powered engine the Italian Air Ministry was prepared to contemplate an artificial device for increasing the performance of the RE.2005.'  Longhi often recalled his opposition to the 'crazy idea conceived by imaginative but impractical people', adding sometimes that the modification would have moved the center of gravity back from 21 to 30% and radically altered the aircraft's handling." (Alegi, 36-39)


Edited by J311yfish, 07 September 2016 - 07:29 PM.

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J311yfish #22 Posted 08 September 2016 - 03:15 PM

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Production values in yellow

 

If the recent leak of IJA aircraft is true, and the treatment of Kawasaki and Nakajima for Japan is accurate -- emphasis on production values rather than incremental development per manufacturer -- then the same could be done for Italy to eliminate "paper and vapor" and provide a concise progression with interesting premiums.

 

The overall production values are, by one account, comparable to those of France.

 

//edit: I do not like to rely on Wikipedia even as a last resort, but given the absence of any alternatives for IMAM Ro.41, Wikipedia claims 744 produced, which would make it #1 for production at tier 3.


Edited by J311yfish, 30 September 2016 - 10:16 AM.

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J311yfish #23 Posted 27 September 2016 - 01:20 PM

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CAMPINI

-- post dedicated to all Campini developments

 

 


Edited by J311yfish, 05 November 2016 - 06:50 PM.

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J311yfish #24 Posted 01 October 2016 - 03:48 PM

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More on the 'jet-powered' Reggiane Re.2005:

 

From 'La Propulsione A Reazione In Italia dale origini al 1943', by Giuseppe Ciampaglia (2002) -- six pages are devoted to the story of Luigi Broglio, Antonio Ferri, and Marcello Sarracino and their plan to modify the Re.2005 to utilize a centrifugal or axial flow compressor (see image below). 

 

 

Similar concepts employed by MiG I-250N, and Sukhoi Su-5.  The mixed-power MiG I-250 is currently in-game for Tier VIII

 

Mixed propulsion was pioneered by the Italians with the Caproni Campini (first flight 08/27/1940), and a projected version (Ca.183bis) was to be an improvement.​  The mixed-power Reggiane Re.2005 (Sagittario) could be the Tier VIII lead-in to Aerfer Sagittario 2 designed by Sergio Stefanutti (see video).  Though it flew after the end of the Korean War, the engine used (Rolls-Royce Derwent 9) is a development of that used in the Gloster Meteor (VII+), Supermarine Attacker (IX), and the technology was copied for Lavochkin La-15 (X), MiG-15bis (X).

 

 

Given the continuation of Aerfer Sagittario 2 as Aerfer Ariete and Leone (below), and given the hypothetical (I.e. fictional) development of Ki-162-I (IX) and Ki-162-3 (X) for alternate-history Japan, perhaps a tier X development could be the Ariete, Leone, "Sagittario 3" or similar.  Pictured below is a mock-up of the ultimate development, Leone, which was not built.  Like the Re.2005 R/SF and Ca.183bis it was to be mixed power (jet + rocket).

 

 

 

More about the Aerfer Leone by Raptor_Fulcrum (02/2012)


Edited by J311yfish, 01 October 2016 - 05:41 PM.

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J311yfish #25 Posted 04 October 2016 - 08:44 PM

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Production locations

 

ph


Edited by J311yfish, 15 November 2016 - 02:06 PM.

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J311yfish #26 Posted 05 October 2016 - 11:04 PM

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Reworking Italy based on recent introduction of IJA for Japan.

 

Emphasis on engine progression, with respect to production numbers and chronology.

 

 

Fighters

-- The reality is that the Italian manufacturers Fiat, Macchi, Reggiane, others competed against each other for production contracts (like Nakajima, Mitsubishi, Kawasaki).  In the case of Italy, it was not all-or-nothing, but rather a competition for primacy, with the second-string aircraft being produced in quantity to mitigate risk.  Third-string aircraft generally considered for bombs, torpedoes, or for sale abroad (G.50 Finland, Re.2000 Sweden)

-- Tier III -- Gloster Gladiator (anticipated tier III prior to Hurricane tier IV) is the referent for CR.42 (Osprey Duel 47).  CR.42 developed from earlier CR.40 and 41; therefore Tier III.  Arado 197 is a Tier IV biplane only due to cannon armament (see modules).

-- Tier IV and V -- Given the treatment of the IJA line with respect to production,and given the treatment of Ki-43-I and Ki-43-II's engines, it is possible to stagger the G.50 and C.200 in the same manner so as to take advantage of their early and later arrivals despite using the same engine; performance from same engine with C.200 > G.50. 

-- Tier VI -- Kawaski Ki-61 is the referent for C.202 (DB601 used abroad), also Spitfire V (Osprey Duel 60), both are Tier VI.

-- Tier VII -- The C.205V was the first to fly with the DB 605 engine only because it did not require a prototype stage from C.202.  It was flown to Fiat and Reggiane for use as a reference aircraft.  The G.55 was favored for production however, even by the Germans for a time ~09/1943 (short lived presumably for 2 reasons -- man-hours per aircraft and status of Fiat production facilities).  Referent Bf 109G tier VII.

-- Tier VIII -- Re.2005 the last to fly with DB605, projected DB603, further projected mixed-power, as MiG I-250 in-game Tier VIII.  An alternative would be the Caproni Campini Ca.183bis, but there is as of now no direct tie-in to that projection.

-- Tier IX -- Aerfer Sagittario II continuity in name and concept with Ariete also favoring mixed power. Timeline delayed due to end of war chaos, but if it is desirable to project forward from 1942 in a manner that extrapolates Italy's air power​ (alternate timeline -- as has been done for Japan with J7W2/3, Ki-162-I/III), then perhaps the remarkable aircraft by Stefanutti, and perhaps even variants of the Arado Ar 234 stationed for a time in Italy, might have a place.  (It would have to be imagined that end-of-war chaos did not ensue, that the air force was not divided, that collaboration with Germany was improved rather than German nationalization of Italian aircraft production, etc.)

 

Multirole

Two aircraft carriers, Aquila and Sparviero, finally initiated (after indecision) 09/1942 (too late).  Some variants of the main fighter branch either adapted, or considered for adaptation to be used as 2nd generation carrier-based fighters.  It may be that nothing comes of this, but perhaps potential premiums could at least be identified.

 

Attack

Work in progress.  Bomber and torpedo bomber progression identified because it provides context for understanding how the role was met.

 

There are many avenues to progress in this project.  Reliable referents are just a starting point.

 


Edited by J311yfish, 05 October 2016 - 11:19 PM.

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J311yfish #27 Posted 24 October 2016 - 12:42 AM

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Update

 

 

Much progress has been made on clearly identifying fighter progression I-X on a modular level.

 

Questions and Answers

1) One major question was whether Fiat CR.42 would be Tier III or IV.

-- The answer is Tier III based on existing engines (P-35) and armament (Ba.27M) already in game. It would face the F3F and Gladiator.  If the experimental CR.42DB is ever offered as premium it would face the Arado Ar 197 and Fairey Fantome at Tier IV.

2) Another major question was how Fiat G.50, Macchi C.200 might fare at Tiers IV and V.

-- The answer is, based on the Ki-43-I and Ki-43-II now in game, just fine.

3) Another big question is, how do you get through Tier VIII, really? 

-- The clearest alternative so far is to use the Re.2005, whose engine is carried forward from the previous tier, and then to follow through on the imagined mixed-power creation.  The referent for that is already in-game (MiG I-250).

-- Another alternative is to follow the SAI.403 Dardo (Dart) light fighter ordered into production, designed by Stefanutti.  The reference for that approach so far appears to be the C.714 and Bell XP-77 but with greater horsepower presumably to reach tier VIII.  More investigation needed.

4) Lastly, another big question is, what do you really do with Tier IX and X -- jets of American influence such as the Fiat G.91 (our timeline)? or something else?  (alternate timeline as with Germany and Japan).

-- I think, given Stefanutti's development of SAI.403 Dardo (Dart) prior to Armistice, the huge production order desired, the continuation from that vehicle to Sagittario 2 (by way of swept-wing research craft), and the fact that it uses Rolls-Royce Derwent (scaled down Nene as used in Supermarine Attacker), that the answer is to follow Sagittario 2 and its planned successor Ariete.  Some might say that the first flight date (05/19/1956) puts it well beyond the end of the Korean War (07/27/1953), but the same could be said of the IL-40P (02/14/1955).  Furthermore, exceptions to first flight dates have been known to exist already in game, presumably because it is an extension of a previous development (the same is true also for Fiat CR.42 when compared to Fiat G.50).

 

Conclusions

Moving along, some firm conclusions can be drawn.  It is not realistic to suppose that there will be 3 full fighter lines by manufacturer, when in reality they all competed for primacy (winners and losers, as with Japan).  At most, it may be possible to have one as a pure fighter line, and a secondary as a fighter-bomber line (perhaps radial-engine as Re.2002 so as not to deprive the main line of its German heritage).  Unfortunately, that is not something that I will be able to figure out in detail because it will ultimately rely on fictional post-war development.  I have proposed a few things that might be within reach, however:

1)  Italian trimotor bombers and German collaboration leading to Arado Ar 234 or similar 'fast bomber' projects.  This follows the manner of Japan which has been given the He 162 (Germany by proxy), and emphasizes something that is kind of distinguished about Italy's approach (trimotors to tier V or VI).  It would also mean defensive armament that is so far not in game, such as 2 turrets, dorsal and ventral, or lateral guns.

2) Italian designer Cesare Pallavicino and German designer Kurt Tank go on to practice their trade in Argentia after the war -- this gives you the Nancu heavy fighter, Pulqui I jet, Pulqui II jet -- aircraft that otherwise may not ever have a place in the game.​  This stems from the actual timeline, though, rather than an alternate timeline.

 

Moving Forward

The avenues to move forward in this project are, in my opinion:

1) further detail saturation for fighters I-X, identifying all possibilities for intermittent engines planned or projected.

2) investigate fighter-bomber multi-role in detail I-X to the extent possible.  It might be imagined that Italy actually followed through on carrier development, for example (Aquila and Sparviero).

3) investigate any/all supplementary Luftwaffe forces in Italy.

4) investigate German secret projects for any suggestion that might be made that aircraft be built in or given to Italy -- or, find a project that is very clearly not going to be put in game for Germany and see if it holds up in some way to Italian ambitions (such as Arado 234 or variation).


Edited by J311yfish, 28 October 2016 - 12:17 AM.

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J311yfish #28 Posted 02 November 2016 - 03:38 PM

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Update
 
 
Fighters
-- in early tiers, emphasis on maneuverability and visibility.
-- in later tiers, emphasis on maneuverability and armament.
-- transition to jets via mixed-power Re.2005 using Campini motorjet system
 
Multirole
-- radial-engine fighters supplement the main line in a fighter-bomber capacity.
-- The Reggiane RE 103 1740hp M-18 engine would be Italy's native Tier VI/VII engine, meant to be interchangeable with Isotta-Fraschini X-24 (below).
--- this engine was planned for Re.2004 but did not materialize.
-- The Isotta-Fraschini X-24 engine (tested 12/1941) is analogous to the DB 604 X-24 and would another native engine at Tier VII/VIII.
--- this engine was considered for G.55, planned for Re.2004, Piaggio P.119, Amborisini SAI.403, Caproni-Vizzola F.6Z, Caproni Ca.331 but did not materialize.
-- if Italy were granted even the minor/modest fictional development of these engines (projected from 1941) then it would be possible to have a parallel line of multirole fighters, joining the main line again with Re.2005.
 
Heavy
-- protracted development; in reality supplemented by German aircraft, and at later tiers the regular fighters carried heavier armament
 
Attack
-- in early tiers, emphasis on fast/agile attack/interceptor aircraft (theories of Amedeo Mecozzi)
-- in mid tiers, emphasis on heavy armament
-- in later tiers, emphasis on the 'fast bomber' concept pursued by Germans ("Bomber B") to be consistent with Mecozzi.
 
Trimotors
-- It has been necessary to trace bomber and maritime bomber (floatplane) development in order to understand origin of some attack aircraft. 
-- The SM.79 accounts for ~12-20% of all aircraft produced and spans two tiers before being overtaken by the designs of Filippo Zappata.
-- The trimotor formula continues until Tier V for operational aircraft, and possibly tier VI with the unbuilt IMAM Ro.67 (3x DB 601).
 
moving forward
-- Caproni Campini Ca.183bis and related projects
-- Caproni ad nauseam
-- Luftwaffe fast bomber projects (Arado Ar 240/440 program canceled 10/1943)
-- designer tracking
-- production tracking
-- details

Edited by J311yfish, 03 November 2016 - 02:27 PM.

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J311yfish #29 Posted 06 November 2016 - 01:08 PM

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Designer tracking

 

Above is a list of developments, color-coded by designer, and arranged by approximate tier/chronology, that fill the middle-roles of the spectrum between Fighter and Bomber.

 

Mecozzi

-- The attack doctrine of Mecozzi is brought to form with the Caproni Bergamaschi AP1 (04/1934) designed by Cesare Pallavicino.  The concept is carried further by Panzeri and Parano with the Breda Ba.64/65, but the Ba.65 (09/1935) was difficult to fly, and a disappointment.  It was supplemented by IMAM Ro.41 biplanes used in a fighter-bomber capacity, as well as the Caproni Bergamaschi Ca.310 Libeccio (04/1937) twin-engine multi-purpose aircraft (also by Pallavicino).  The Breda Ba.88 (02/1937) was to improve upon the situation with twin engines also, and despite speed records with the prototype, was ultimately a disappointment when loaded.  Cesare Pallavicino returns to the drawing board to revisit the single-engine design, for the role that he started with the AP1; the result is the Ca.335 Maestrale (1939) which is sold to Belgium.  By this point it is clear that the way forward is via single-engine single-seat fighter bomber, twin-engine two-seat heavy fighter, or dedicated dive bomber. 

 

Dive Bomber

-- The Savoia-Marchetti SM.85/86 twin-engine dive bomber (12/1938-06/1940+) was a disappointment and did not even see combat.  Sergio Stefanutti designs the canard SS.4 (05/1939), acceptable for dive bombing, but despite strong performance no order was placed (presumably due to unorthodox design).  Cesare Pallavicino revisits the single-engine Ca.335 design sold to Belgium in 1939, and derives a dive bomber version, Ca.355 (01/1941); flight trials successful but no production orders placed. 

-- Breda Ba.88 and IMAM Ro.57, disappointing as heavy fighters, are modified to function as dive bombers (1942), supplementing the more successful Junkers Ju 87.  From this point dive bomber development appears to parallel the German formula.  The Breda 201 (07/1941) has strong resemblance to Ju 87.  The SM.93 (01/1944) follows but adds also the prone-pilot concept to mitigate the effect of G-force during a dive.  The Germans employ the same prone concept in the Henschel Hs 132 (1945).

 

Heavy Fighter

-- The Caproni Bergamaschi Ca.310-series (04/1937) filled the role until newer twin-engine developments materialize.  IMAM Ro.57 (1939 design) was disappointing as an interceptor, being no faster than a single-engine aircraft.  Savoia-Marchetti SM.88 (1939) was deemed no better than Bf 110 already in production, and considered for export but denied by the Germans.  The twin-boom concept is revisited with SM.91 (03/1943), SM.92 (10/1943), and twin-fuselage Caproni Bergamaschi Ca.380 Corsaro (incomplete 09/1943) which bears resemblance to Bf 109Z.

 

Assault with Big Guns

-- This does not appear to be a native concept from the beginning, but rather one that was developed by necessity as the war progressed (1941+), or as a consequence of aircraft being unsuited for other purposes, or result of German influence, etc.  Aircraft are converted from the bomber and/or reconnaissance role to function as anti-tank and anti-shipping aircraft.  The largest being 102mm cannon employed by the 4-engined Piaggio P.108A.

 

Conclusions

-- The Mecozzi concept of fast/agile interceptor/bomber aircraft appears to be carried forward most successfully by the radial Reggiane fighters.  In this manner there is some resemblance to Germany's Fw 190's (V-VII).

-- Trying to identify a clear progression through the Attack and Heavy fighter roles is complicated by false-starts, German supplements, and rapid influx of German designs.

-- The prime designers in this portion of the fighter-bomber spectrum are Cesare Pallavicino, Filippo Zappata, Roberto Longhi, and Alessandro Marchetti.  Pallavicino was often (at least 4 times) brought in to salvage or improve upon the designs of others.

 

Moving forward

-- design/designer tracking from Germany to Italy with implications for VII-X

-- prime suspects = Arado, Blohm und Voss


Edited by J311yfish, 06 November 2016 - 02:37 PM.

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J311yfish #30 Posted 06 November 2016 - 11:27 PM

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BOMBERS
 
Overview

 

Tier II

 

Tier III

 


Edited by J311yfish, 15 November 2016 - 01:59 PM.

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J311yfish #31 Posted 06 November 2016 - 11:27 PM

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BOMBERS (​continued)
 

Tier IV

 
Tier V

 

Tier VI

 

Tier VII

 


Edited by J311yfish, 08 November 2016 - 01:11 PM.

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J311yfish #32 Posted 06 November 2016 - 11:28 PM

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TRANSPORTS
-- another avenue to identify engine progression
 
ph

Edited by J311yfish, 09 November 2016 - 11:18 PM.

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J311yfish #33 Posted 27 June 2017 - 09:11 PM

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User Blockhaj announced an Italian tech tree project coming soon based on poll here.

 

Italy is currently in the lead with 26% of the vote (100/382).

 

Poll​:  What Nation would u like to see next?

 


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